I may be labeled a heretic for suggesting this, but wouldn't 60i be better (assuming you use a motion sensing app, as I do in AE, to separate and interpolate fields)? You'd have twice as much motion info (albeit at half the resolution, but with smart interpolation that reduction in resolution becomes less of a factor). Maybe I'm wrong....

That's a good point Stuart - what's the relative loss between shooting 30p and 60i for slow mo. One has twice the temporal sampling, other twice the resolution (for slow mo) - guess some testing might reveal which gives better results. My guess is that 30p with Twixtor would work the best, albeit expensive and slower while 60i might be best for Premier and othe NLE's that are designed to edit pulldown footage.

FCP and Vegas might be different as they both have different engines for handle speed changes.

I spent quite a bit of time testing this to determine what would be the best. All testing was done with the idea that the main project would be a 24P timeline. Here's what I found:

By far the best results come from shooting 30P and importing directly into the 24P timeline for a 20% slow-mo. The only problem is you only get a slight 20% slow-mo effect -- but if that's all you need, 30P is the way to go.

Next, shoot 60i. The motion information is what you need, and 60i gives it to you. 60i brought into a 24P timeline, and played at 40% speed, gives an exquisite dramatic slow-motion effect. Yes there is a slight softening in the vertical direction, but nowhere near as noticeable as the jitter from slowing down progressive footage.

Next, if you find the vertical softening objectionable (and test it, you won't find it objectionable) you can sort of get away with 30P slowed down to 40%. It's sharper vertically but stuttery compared to 60i slow-mo'd.

Last, last, last resort: 24P slowed down. It just doesn't work well, there's not enough motion information available. Try it if you must, but recognize that it's going to stutter. Warning: do not try to slow down 24P footage in a 60i timeline: the pulldown will be present and will give you very stuttery results. Only try slowing down 24P in a 24P timeline.

One option I never explored: Twixtor on 24P footage. I haven't gotten satisfactory results from twixtor yet, but others swear by it. If it works for you, twixtor'd 24P might be the answer for some.

Just as a tangential...

On the special features for the Matrix II (whichever that was) where they did the crazy freeway crashes they said they had muliple cameras running at 120fps. Boy, that would help, eh?

what about if i shot a time laps in 24p and set the speed to about 4000. Would that turn out smooth, or should i still shot in 30.??
thanks

For good slo mo, you need more frames per second than normal, not less.

That's why there are specialized film cameras that shoot hundreds of frames per second (think slow mo bullet shots etc.).

DVX100 maximum is 30fps progressive, and 60fps interlaced.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Zorger : what about if i shot a time laps in 24p and set the speed to about 4000. Would that turn out smooth, or should i still shot in 30.??
thanks -->>>

I don't think you can, can you? I don't think the 24P modes work with time lapse, because of the pulldown issues. You'd have to use 30P or 60i for time lapse.

And yes, regardless, speeding up the time lapse footage will be quite smooth.

no, im not saying use the tap laps feature on the camera. But just let it record, and make a time laps. Would it blur up and not look smooth if you put the speed % up high from 1000-4000 depending on how long it is and how fast you want the time laps to move.
???????????????

If you shoot normal footage and then speed it up, it will not blur, just give you very fast footage. All that happens when you speed up footage is that it starts to skip frames. IF you are running ntsc regualr 30fps and decide to speed that up, say 200%, you would basically be playing 2 seconds worth of footage in one second. 15 frames from the first second, and 15 from the 2nd second. The more you speed up your footage, the fewer original frames you will be keeping. This can give you smooth footage if you kept the camera steady for a very long time, however, I don't think this is what you are looking to do. Time laps does not slow down motion it speeds it up dramatically.

Barry Green - FWIW - I found that disabling resampling in Vegas makes slowing 24p almost acceptable. That being said, 30p is def. better.

Barry and/or anyone else who's used 60i for slo-mo in a 24p timeline: I've just shot some 60i footage for a slo-mo effect in a 24p movie. Haven't yet digitized it, since I'm on location. How specifically will this work in FCP, if cutting in a 24p timeline? Any issues with importing the 60i footage into a 24p timeline? Thanks for any info.


Stas

I don't use FCP so I'll have to defer to someone with more expertise on that. In Vegas it's really simple, you import the clip into a 24P timeline, and tell it to use a playback rate of 40%, and that's about all you have to do! Make sure your de-interlacing/blending fields options are set to the best quality as well.

I have shot tons of time lappes and they turn out TIGHT. I bet i have shot better Time lapes than 90% of the people on this site.
Peace

I know this may have been asked in the past, but how do i save my settings when i'm in 24p? DO i just press the button in the back, and set the number on the dial that i want it to set to???
thanks

at the very end of the scene file setup ( where you change you settings) it will ask you to name the new scene file, and also ask you to save the settings. Just keep pressing yes until it says "saved". However, do not go to the "int" option, or this will revert it back to the original. I hope this is what you were looking for.

sounds good to me, i'll try it out.
Thanks

So using the INT option, can i revert to factory settings at any time if i screw things up ?

Yes, at least I'm pretty sure that's what it does. I personally havn't reverted back, but that is what the manual says it does.

ok i f...ed up. i saved some of my 24p under scene 1. How do i go back. Do i just have to undo all of my settings and save again. or what. I cant really remeber how it was before exactly.

ok
1:press menue
2:enter the "scene file" setting
3:go all the way to the bottom, to the setting that says
"save/init"
4:you wil then fave the option of save or Initial. Go to Intitial, and press yes.
5: It will then say "initial ?" go to yes and push still. There you go, factory settings.

your the man, thanks

http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/russian_ark.html

BTW- For those interested, here's a Sony FAQ for their HDW-F900:

http://216.130.185.103/content/article_51.shtml

And George Lucas talking about HD format:

http://216.130.185.103/content/article_45.shtml

We have several threads already going on Russian Ark. Two of the lengthiest (more than 25 responses) are:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3320

and

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5553

I should've checked. My bad.

I am not sure which mode to choose dor my new project. The final destination will surely be DVD.

Please advise.

24p, or 30p

If you are making a 24 progressive DVD, shoot 24p advanced.

The most advance method to produce to DVD is 24p DVD. This is what virtually all hollywood productions are produced to. The advantage is that end users with a progressive player and progressive display output device will have a higher quality product for viewing. Those with more traditional performance players and TV's/monitors will not see all of the added advantage of 24p DVD, but they will not experience any quality loss over the 30 fps encoded DVD either.

24p DVD also provide an additional amount of storage over 30 fps DVD which can be used to either fit more play time on the DVD, or better yet, used to reduce compression and thereby increase quality.

24p DVD is one of those normally hard to find "win-win" situations everyone should take advantage of.

-Rodger

I have a question about the 24p advanced mode. I like the idea of converting footage to 24p before editing if your finished product is going to be rendered to film or encoded for DVDs. It seems like a very smart thing to do. Vegas editing software can do the conversion without having to recompress the video during the reverse pull down. Anyway, the only thing I don’t know about editing at 24 frames per second is this: Can I send the playback from the timeline through the camera via firewire so that the camera can do a 2:3:3:2 pulldown on the fly and send the NTSC compliant video to an NTSC monitor for viewing and color correction?

Vegas does exactly that.

First off starting last friday I am the proud owner of a agdvx100.

Fiirst thing I noticed however when messing aroud with it, is that in 24p mode while watching it through the lcd that it seems quite choppy. Now I understand the concept behind it and yes Ive shot on film before, what I want to know is does this smooth out some after rendered?
Thanks for your time.

You have just entered the single most-discussed DVX topic (seems like everyone's quit asking "what's that rattle?")

A quick summary: first, the LCD displays one field at a time, not a full frame. Because of the 3:2 pulldown, it looks significantly more "stuttery" on the LCD than it does on an NTSC monitor.

Second, the DVX does render motion identically to the way a film camera does. Move the camera like a film camera, and it will reward you with filmlike motion. I've shot film and video on the same subject, imported it into the same project, split-screened it, and proven it -- the DVX is no "jumpier" than film is. They render the motion the same.

So, since you're already used to shooting film, just be sure to move the camera the same way, and use a CRT monitor if you want to see what it "really" looks like, since the LCD is signficantly "jumpier".

Barry:

While I had my DVX, I never did get around to film vs. video motion blur. Did you ever verify the amount of motion blur on identical shutter speeds on film vs. DVX?

I'm curious if there a differences in the motion blur characteristics between film and CCD's...

...in 24p mode while watching it through the lcd that it seems quite choppy. Now I understand the concept behind it and yes Ive shot on film before, what I want to know is does this smooth out some after rendered?24P is choppy because it is not 60 fields per second. When this footage is played back on a TV, however, it will look smoother because it'll be interlaced (viewed in fields); but it still won't look as smooth as viewing something shot in NTSC interlaced to begin with, because the 24P capture misses some fields and frames. For a better explaination of this, go to Adam Wilt's DVC100 /DVC100A review found somewhere on this site: http://www.adamwilt.com

Watching a picture show will look smoother than interlaced 24P because no information is missed, and each frame is shown twice giving you a 48P effect.

Sorry for the repeat, i looked up jumpy and choppy and nothing came up so I threw this thread up there, thanks a lot of the response. I was hoping it was a due to the lcd.
Thanks again.

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Barry:

While I had my DVX, I never did get around to film vs. video motion blur. Did you ever verify the amount of motion blur on identical shutter speeds on film vs. DVX?

I'm curious if there a differences in the motion blur characteristics between film and CCD's... -->>>

In general, side by side they look basically identical. However, I have identified one potential reason why the motion rendering might look fractionally different on a DVX vs. a film camera, and that's because of the way a film camera's rotating shutter works. However, not all cameras use a rotating shutter (some high-speed cameras use a prism, and the Eclair ACL uses a swinging-pendulum-type shutter, and you never hear complaints about its motion rendering) so I don't think there's much to be said there.

So, to repeat: there is no significant difference in motion rendering between them. There may be a tiny difference due to the nature of the film camera exposing the upper-left corner before exposing the lower-right corner, vs. the CCD exposing all at once, but it should be basically negligible.

That's what I figured. During my brief period with the DVX, I felt the difference between it and film were not due to motion capture but just simply resolution, latitude and color. What's most impressive to me about the DVX100 is just how much better it's progressive mode looks than interlaced and how well it compares to HD progressive.

Juans experiment my really deliver the goods by leapfrogging the DV Codec.

Can you ruin the 24p motion blur effect by choosing a fast shutter speed like 1/200? I dont have the camera but I'm saving up. Hopefully I'll have it in May/June.
Anyway, what about a shutter speed of 1/24. I was messing with the camera at B&H and 1/24 looks VERY jittery. (A little less jittery through the monitor). Anyway, I read a 1/50 (off) or 1/60 is a good setting but what would you use 1/24 for?
Sorry if it sounds like I dont know what I'm talking about.... frankly, it's cuz I don't. I'm new to this so I'm trying to learn.
Thanks everyone,
Paul

Shooting at 1/24 causes a lot of smearing but almost completely removes any trace of "jittering". Shooting at 1/200 would make the motion very choppy and "staccato" and would very much accentuate the strobiness.

I just gave a long-winded reply elsewhere, but basically the issue is that traditional video, i.e. 60-field-per-second video, is constantly "on" -- it's constantly capturing image. There's never a microsecond where the camera is "blind". 24-frame-per-second imaging (whether it's film, video, or high-def) is "blind" for fully 1/2 the time! It shoots a frame for 1/48 of a second, then closes the shutter and sits blind for the next 1/48 of a second, then shoots the next frame... it is this "blind spot" that makes the video look stroby -- exactly the same effect as a strobe light has on your vision.

If you shoot at 1/24, the camera would never be "blind", it would be recording all the time, and the results would certainly go a ways towards smoothing out the motion. However, you would also be sacrificing the very quality that makes 24P video look like film!

Yeah, 1/24 is only useful on when you need low-light and don't have very much camera or subject motion.

so would you guys agree that 1/50 or 1/60 is a good shutter speed in most normal shooting conditions? also, why use 1/60 or 1/50 when in essence, film's shutter is 1/48? Why not just manually adjust the dvx100(a)'s shutter to 1/48 all the time (if you are shooting movies and want the motion blur of films)?

I've always been encouraged to set the shutter at 1/48 as it's the closest to a film cameras setup.....

Film cameras use all sorts of shutter angles. 180 degrees isn't necessarily standard. Some Super8 cameras had shutters as wide as 220 degrees. I've got a B&H Filmo that has a 216-degree shutter, a CP16 with a 156-degree shutter, and a 35mm Konvas with a 150-degree shutter. The Beaulieu 6008 had a standard shutter equivalent to 90 degrees, and an extended "low light" mode that was 144 degrees. CP16's came with 144, 156, or 170-degree shutters. Some cameras use 172.8 degrees.

Different shutter angles give different exposure times. A 180-degree shutter delivers 1/48 of a second. A 144-degree shutter delivers 1/60 of a second. A 172.8-degree shutter delivers 1/50 of a second. They're all common shutter angles, and all common film exposure times. They all look like film. So you can use 1/36 if you want, or 1/60, it'll still look like film, there's nothing magical about the 180-degree shutter. And I doubt anyone on earth could tell the difference between 1/48 and 1/50 (pulsing HMI's or fluorescents aside).

I've heard that when shooting 24p with the 100a, the image looks choppy in the LCD but will be fine when viewed with a monitor.

When I went to B & H the other day, I checked out the 100a and didn't notice any choppiness. However, the camera was not recording. Will I see choppiness only when it's recording? Is the choppiness present in the viewfinder, or only the LCD?

Just how choppy will the image appear. Since I'm directing a movie along with shooting it, I need to judge the actors performances through the camera, not on a monitor. I'm afraid choppy video will hinder my ability to accomplish this.

Did you look at the LCD when the cam was in 24p mode? If so, the "chopiness" is the same to my eye when playing back.

It does not interfere with judging actors performance.

As a director myself, I might suggest Judith Weston's book on Directing Actors. Great book.

I looked through the LCD and the viewfinder. Neither looked choppy to me. Have you made a short or feature with the 100a? If so I'd appriciate any advice you could give me in regards to the camera.

I came real close to buying her book a few weeks ago but I was short on cash. I had read an article about the book in Moviemaker Magazine. It seems very helpful.

Search around here for info. I don't currently have one, but most questions have already been asked/answered here.

It is true that more care needs to be taken when shooting hand held in 24p, however it can be done, and have great results to boot. The choppiness will only occur when your shutter speed exceeds the speed at which you pan or tilt, in other words, the faster the shutter, the more choppiness will occur in some objects. The things that appear the chopiest are high contrast areas, like a metalic pole against a bright background. This can be avoided in three ways. First, a slower shutter speed will give you more motion blur, thus causing the stuttering effect to dissapate. Second, panning a little slower will keep the stuttering effect from appearing. Third, (and also a technique which can be used with the first and second) is to have a subject that you are following in front of the stuttering background ie. a waiter walking through a restaurant to aid in panning from one table to another. This will cause the viewers eye to be fixed on the subject and not get caught into the visual loop that causes the stuttering effect. Follow these things and you can shoot handheld, upside down, panning, tilting, doing jumping jacks, or just on a normal tripod. Those who say that you must use this camera a stationary viewpoint either have not used the camera or have not taken enought time with the camera to understand how to use it effectively.

Now I took that same footage and played it on a TV with the coaxle cables and its still all jittery. Maybe slightly less but still not a film look, its a strobic look. Any ideas?
Thanks
Ryan