you would figure by now (considering that the release date is right around the corner) that Panasonic will have posted some screen shots from their
new AG-DVX100.

Would anyone have any info on this?

I shot some quick test footage with the DVX100 a couple weeks ago at the LA DV Show, about 20 minutes worth. Even though I did not get deep into the camera's image setup control, I was pretty impressed with the overall image quality. Upon playing it back, I noticed that no TC was recorded onto tape - probably due to the fact that this was still a prototype model. I'm sure that the production models will record TC. Did a capture onto my laptop for kicks, even though the software I used at the time (Sonic Foundry's Vegas Video 3.0) did not have any 24P capture preset available. Basically what was created was a 29.97 DV .avi file that has a 3:2 pulldown look, like 24fps film xferred to interlaced NTSC. The 16:9 image was captured properly by the software and played back well in that aspect ratio. Sound recorded by the built-in mic seemed decent as well.

I will be doing some more test captures with FCP 3.0 on my G4 shortly. I'm sure that FCP will do an excellent job capturing the 24P test footage. Will keep you posted.

I'm sure Panasonic will be publishing some test images/ footage soon. In the meantime, I am very much satisfied with what I can do on the XL1S, especially with some filtration and tweaking in FCP. Will be shooting with the P+S Technik Mini35 on an upcoming project, am looking forward to it!

- don

This means you will have to do a 3:2 pulldown to get the original
24 fps footage, right? I hope they deliver presets or software with
their camera because 3:2 pulldown can be tricky and yield horrible
results if done wrong.

You can edit it as 60i (24p capture with 3:2 pulldown) straight out of the camera - no 3:2 removal necessary. (Akin to editors cutting projects that were shot on film then telecined and will be only shown on video/broadcast - ie: tv shows). Depending on how finicky you want to be you could just keep an eye on whether you are cutting on a 'split' frame or not.

So I don't think there is any worry about being able to use the footage straight away for most projects. The issue of removing the pulldown would come up if you wanted to do composite/fx work at the native 24fps or were making a transfer to film. But given that the camera produces a standard 3:2 pulldown (in addition to another custom pulldown mode) it shouldn't be any problem to remove with After Effects or the like.

2 cents,
Clayton

And oh yeah - some camera frames would be *great*.

Donald could you post (or post a link) to some examples of the stuff you captured. Like some examples of both the image static and in motion (to get an idea of quality of progressive image) - ideally as an uncompressed PICT or TIF or the like?

Clayton

I prefer the native DV stream :) ... oh well... You are ofcourse
correct that you can edit in 60i... BUT. If you do so, you are very
likely to destroy the 3:2 pulldown process because you are
editing on frames that should not be there. If you then go and
do a 3:2 pulldown in the end you will not get the results. If
you want to have 24 fps I believe you have to do 3:2 pulldown
on the source material, not the edit output.

<<<-- If you want to have 24 fps I believe you have to do 3:2 pulldown on the source material, not the edit output. -->>>

Yeah, certainly. Unless you keep 3:2 cadence throughout the edit (assuming you would need it for a final 24p output or some other purpose.)

Which as you mention can either be done by working on a system that would allow removal of 3:2 natively in the NLE (higher end AVIDs now and maybe FCP later) or you could just try to restrict your edits to timecodes with a multiple of 5 in the frame count. 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30(0) (Info per Panasonic Rep Stuart English on 2-pop boards.)

This would perhaps be a bit limiting but may be an inexpensive (free), readily available solution if you must keep cadence. But again I'm not sure how critical cadence is if the work is solely intended for video/DVD/broadcast - but then again who wouldn't want to make a film print if Miramax offered... ;)

So in short, you could work wih the material as soon as you had such a hot little camera in your hands, but it will be nice when 24p native editing becomes more common - if nothing else it would cut your rendering down by 20%!

Any one else have any more/other info to either support or correct these notions?

Clayton

I posted this question in another thread, but it got lost as another discussion took over:

What's the advantage, if you're shooting for NTSC broadcast, of using the 24p mode instead of 60i?

What about if you're outputting to DVD? Is there an advantage of 24p over 60i?

Or is 24p really just mainly for transferring to film?

There are a couple "Advantages" that may or may not apply to you:

1. Look and Feel. With 24p and a 1/48th shutter speed there is more motion blur and bit of a loss of detail that are one of many qualities found in Film. If you like the look of 24p then you might prefer to shoot with it. If you don't you probably won't want to.

2. Progressive Scan. With 24 or 30p, you are shooting full framed progressive images instead of interlaced. On DVD playback with a Progressive Scan Monitor this too can be a better image with more vertical detail than you'll find in interlaced images.

3. Reducing Post Production rendering times. With 24 fps you'll need 20% less rendering if you are doing things like compositing, effects, or any other major rendering tasks. For some this can result in days less rendering time.

i don't have DVD yet ...

so are DVD's made at 24fps and then when it plays back it adds the 3:2 ???

i don't see how there would be 20% less rendering for a NTSC broadcast tape ???
because if shoot at 24P and edit it in true 24fps at some point you must render out a version with the 3:2 so it will play on a NTSC monitor ??? seems like it would have to render every frame ?

or if you shot 60i then took it and changed it to true 24fps and edited in 24P .. you must still at some point render out a version with 3:2 added so it will play on a NTSC TV ???

or even if you used the DV film maker ( with 24P dvx100) which just pulls out the 5th frame ( no re-rendering ) at some point it for it to play on a NTSC monitor it must render out with 3:2 added ??

not quite sure how you would save 20% rendering time for a NTSC version ??

Rendering 3:2 pulldown is much faster than rendering complex 3d effects, Composites, Color Correction or Green Screens.

DVDs can be encoded with 24fps Progressive. The DVD player is then responsible for either 3:2 pulldown for NTSC or proper formatting for a Progressive Scan TV.

<<<-- Originally posted by aaronscool : Rendering 3:2 pulldown is much faster than rendering complex 3d effects, Composites, Color Correction or Green Screens.

DVDs can be encoded with 24fps Progressive. The DVD player is then responsible for either 3:2 pulldown for NTSC or proper formatting for a Progressive Scan TV. -->>>

When producing 24P for DVD, flags are encoded into each 4 frame segment corresponding to the 2:3 pulldown sequence. If the DVD is played back in progressive mode, these flags are ignored and the DVD playes at 24 fps. If the DVD is played in NTSC mode, at every frame where a flag is found it will replayed that frame once, thereby creating the 30 fps (29.976) playback need for NTSC.

One of the great advantages to using 24P in DVD is the FACT that you will increase the allotable file size on any given DVD format you are working with. This means more playback time, or higher quality -- your choice! When you see 24P DVD playback on HD and compare it to a DVD that was encoded from NTSC using the 2:3 pulldown, there is a remarkable difference and much improved viewing experience with the 24 fps DVD.

-Rodger

Other than motion blur and rendering time, are there any further advantages/differences to shooting in 24p and playing back on a NTSC monitor (either with a DVD or outputing to 60i on a tape)? does the extra vertical detail translate to the NTSC broadcast at all?

Also, what happens when you go from 24p to a 3:2 for NTSC? It becomes 60i?

Thanks. And thanks for the above responses as well.

<<<-- Originally posted by donking! : Other than motion blur and rendering time, are there any further advantages/differences to shooting in 24p and playing back on a NTSC monitor (either with a DVD or outputing to 60i on a tape)? does the extra vertical detail translate to the NTSC broadcast at all? -->>>

Not really if you intend to stay exclusively in NTSC for your output and you don't care too much for the 24p motion blur then a better choice would be 30p. This is frame/feild compatible with NTSC without pulldown and will get the same increase in resolution as 24p.

<<<-- Also, what happens when you go from 24p to a 3:2 for NTSC? It becomes 60i?-->>>

Yes.

Some more 24P clips are available to download at

http://www.dvinfo.net/panasonic/media

To be honest, I don't know if these are 24P or 24P ADV
clips ( I meant to read the matadata off the camera display
this morning but brought my daughters 1st brithday party
tape instead - so I'm sure someone can work that out by
running a Marcus's 24p conversion program on it.

The files are large, smallest is 17Mbps (short flight) - this
is a truncated version of mainflight. So maybe try this first
and the others later.

The weather in Santa Barbara was bright, so high contrast
lighting conditions, the Cine-like Gamma was set ON. The
camera was a pre-production unit, so still not 100%
representative of an actual unit.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this process, we would
normally not post a clip from a pre-production camera, but
as we were specificly asked to do so, we have obliged.

Regards,

Stuart English
V.P Marketing
Panasonic Broadcast

Stuart:

Thanks. I'm downloading them right now.

I got one file (shortflight.mov) very slowly, other's barfed and now page is unavailable?

holy smokes that's a slammed server this morning. slo downloads.

guess I'm not the only one downloading them.

anybody have them up on a different server?

I've moved them over to a thttpd based server, since the uploads started using all the capacity on my ISPs 5 T1's (and so, obviously, they decided to unplug the machine and give me a call). The files should be available again, it'll just be slower to limit the damage.

Thanks for the update. I've started again, but slower is the right word. I'm getting around 2K per sec.

Should be able to look at them tomorrow :)

So with 30p you get better resolution even when playing back in NTSC (as 60i)?

Small update, some people trying to access these files are using 'download managers' that pound the server with 10 or more simultaneous connections at once for the same file, in effect pushing their way to the front of the line, but they also make the server very unhappy, so the whole thing slows down for everybody. It was effecting other web sites on the machine, as well as dvinfo.net, (3 second ping times) so I moved them to another server. If a little time goes by and it isn't pounding the server as much, I'll up the bandwidth limits a bit.

As an aside, if anyone knows anybody at a place like Hurricane Electric or Exodus or Akamai, drop me or Chris a line. I'd like people to be able to download these files as fast as possible, but my current colocation environment just doesn't allow for blowing out so much traffic at once. Thanks!

Good. My attempts failed so far, so I gave up an hour ago, but I just tried again and first clip is coming down at 30K per second.

Howdy from Texas,

Jenn Kramer wrote...

<< As an aside, if anyone knows anybody at a place like Hurricane Electric or Exodus or Akamai, drop me or Chris a line. >>

There's a budget available for this, by the way. We're not looking for any handouts or freebies, just an appropriate solution that will ease the situation for everybody.

incase anyone is still having trouble..i posted the clip with the seagul
in flight...its 17mgs but this server maybe be better.

http://www.eatdrinkmedia.com/temp/clips.html
(right click on the link to download)

-Adam

For anyone who has downloaded all of these clips, I could use a favor if you please. I'm looking for some thumbnail images of them. Just a 320x240 jpeg of the first frame of each clip would suffice. If someone out there could do this and e-mail 'em to me, I'd be most grateful. Thanks in advance,

I've got my camera here and will work on some new clips this weekend :)

Totally new to the DV scene....and filmmaking in general actually.
I know that 24p is good, and very close to the look of film.Lucas used it and said hes not going back. The new panasonic comes with it...What my question is, whats the p in 24p stand for? Whats it do?
Thanks
Ryan

The P in 24P stands for progressive.
So, like film, this flavor of HD video signal contains 24 whole frames per second.

NTSC video is 30 *interlaced*
(2 fields per frame) frames per second. 480i.

That MTV awards show looked killer imo.
That said, I think Panasonic has it right.
60 FPS capture!

Ryan

The p in 24p stands for progressive (scan). It is one of a variety of frame rate "formats" that are available for digital video...60i is the most common in the US, and is the standard for NTSC video. The i stands for interlaced, which means that 60i uses 60 interlaced scans (or fields)per second...interlacing is a process where odd and even scan lines are captured and rendered on successive frames, and is largely responsible for the look that most of us associate with video. 24p refers to 24 progressive scans per second. A Progressive scan is single frame that includes both odd and even scan lines, and thus it is similar to how a film camera records its imagery. The 24 fps framerate is the same as that used worldwide for theatrical films, thus the 24p format is considered to be the best match for digital production of theatrical content.

One confusing aspect is that you will find references to 480p, 1080i and others. In these cases p and i stand for the same things...but the number is referring to resolution instead of framerate.

The panasonic ag-dvx100 is capable of recording in 60i, 30p, and 24p---making it unique (for the moment) in consumer level video cameras.

Barry

What is the vertical resolution of NTSC?

From the top of the screen to the bottom are 525 horizontal lines. In 1/60 of a second all the odd numbered (1, 3, 5, etc.) lines are drawn, then in the next 1/60 of a second all the even numbered lines (2, 4, 6, etc.). This is interlaced video. Each 1/60 is referred to as a field. Two fields make a frame, 1/30 of a second. hence 30 frames per second (actually 29.97, but that is another story).

Horizontal resolution is determined by many other factors depending on the format. Among the factors are bandwidth, lens quality, electrical components, tape quality etc.

I should also explain that the terms horizontal and vertical in this discussion are confusing. Vertical resolution is the horizontal lines and horizontal resolution is the vertical lines. The horizontal lines are counted vertically from top to bottom. Hence the term vertical resolution.

Jeff

Thank you, i think ive got it. Can someone now be so kind as to explain NTSC and HD to me....PLEASE

More infor than you ever wanted to know:


http://www.progressivescan.co.uk/index.html

http://rgb.com/Webpages/reftech/hiresconvert.html

http://scarlet.cs.nott.ac.uk/~tjb/pmm/pdf/mm6-02bw.pdf

http://bock.bushwick.com/hdtv_ppt/

beautiful! Thanks a lot!

Can someone please shed some technical benefits, if any of this new camera. Should Canon users be worried about latest investment on a xl1s??

Please explain if the 24p Panasonic will produce a superior noticeable image than the canon xl1s??

From what I was told, it creates a much noticed difference in that the panasonic give it a more convincing "film look"

The replacement for the XL1s is in the works. It has been since the XL1s was introduced. Video equipment follows a sort of evolutionary path. Now and then something revolutionary comes along. But not too often. Unlike some manufactures, Canon is usually pretty tight lipped about their new products.

Jeff

Will a PAL 25p in the Canon be notiv=ceably inferior then the Panasonic?

It is really too early to say a great deal about the DVX100. Wait for a few reviews done with actual production cameras. Pre-release cameras are not always what the consumer gets. But for now the DVX100 will probably be the standard until the Sony or Canon make it to market.

Jeff

The DVX is smaller and you can't change lenses. However, the resolution is higher and it shoots progressive scan instead of frame mode. They are different types of cams, although they share the same CCD size. Just pick one, depending which one tickles your fancy. But keep in mind that the XL1s is proven, the DVX is not (not yet anyway).

As an old still image photographer, it constantly amazes me how the hype and legend gets perpetuated about 24fps video. One of the things never mentioned is the fact that 24fps requires a slower shutter speed. As a result, several factors are introduced.
1-the aperture settings are usually smaller than 60fps
2-the shutter speed is slower
3-because of the slower shutter speed, motion blur is a lot more prevalent

Motion blur is something film-makers are used to and work around. Fast pans become more difficult...in fact, fast pans tend to stutter. I, personally, don't like this weakness of slower shutter speeds. The romantically inclined can't live without it...go figure.

You'll get a better image because:

a) Higher resolution 1280x720 pixels (vs. XL1s's 720x486)

b) True progressive frame. Canon XL1s frame mode is NOT true progressive.

c) Variable frame frate. You can (should be able to) shoot at 60FPS and slow it down the frame rate to 24 FPS (for slow motion) without the strobed look of most NLEs.

What do yo think? Is the 24p worth loosing the option to change lenses? This would have to do with someone who is looking to do shorts and features for mostly festivals and internet.

Without question for me. I'm working on my second short for festival circuit.

I sold my XL1 with 3X wide and 14X manual lens to get two of these.

The image is so much better than XL1 frame mode or XL1 deinterlaced in post. And wide and tele adaptors will arrive soon enough and won't affect the image near as much as the low res XL1 image does.

I think it depends on your time frame for wanting (needing?) a camera and waiting to see what Canon and the rest of the players do in regards to the DVX100. In the short term this camera is affecting the pricing of the XL1 and others. In the long term all the manufactures are working on something similar to this. At this point Panasonic has set the bar, the rest will try to exceed it.

If you have an investment in Canon equipment and lenses it might benefit you to wait. I suspect Canon will have something on the market within a year or so to directly compete with the DVX100. They don't want to lose the market share and lead they have in this segment. If you can't wait, the Panasonic has features and benefits that no other camera at this price point have. Will this camera make or break your next project for a festival? I hope not.

An alternative strategy would be to invest in a high end film effect plug-in like Magic Bullet ($1,000). Start saving for the Canon's equivalent or Sony's etc.

Jeff

well my goal as of right now is, that I have been saving and plan to purchase a minidv camera and editing equipment close to summer. This summer I want to start on my first serious short project.

Summer for me is 9 months away. That would give you time to buy your editing equipment and get up to speed on it. Most people find the learning curve is much steeper on NLE software than a camera. Take a wait and see attitude toward the cameras. This will do two things for you. As competitors to the DVX100 come out they will have newer and different (advanced?) features from which to choose. The price of the DVX100 will fall as competitors come to market. By waiting until you are closer to starting production you'll save some money. Money that can buy a better mic, more Ram, another hard drive etc.

Cameras are all glamor and sexy. We like the buttons and menus and cool stuff. But they really are just a tool. Don't be fooled by all the hype surrounding a new product. If you have any experience shooting you won't need the camera until a few months before production so that you can get familiar with the features. Once you get your NLE up and running, rent a DVX100 for a weekend and try it out. It may or may not be the camera you think it is.

jeff

ok, great. So what you are suggesting is to get the editing equipment now and start getting use to that asap. Then wait until summers about here to decide on a camera, after Ive tested a few out and let the prices drop? Sounds like a good idea to me.

If I were shopping for a whole set-up that's what I would do. the editing equipment and software will not change a great deal in nine months. I edit all my projects on a two year old Mac G4. Plenty of horsepower for what I do. Editing shorts in not all that demanding on a system in most cases.

jeff