How would graphics work in a DV offline setup?

Wouldn't anything created (either in Motion or Livetype or FCP itself) be the wrong resolution when you online HD?

I'm still learning the process here, so I might be missing something obvious.

Thanks!

I'd say you create the online versions for these and downsample
them to your offline resolution for use there. At least that would
be my guess. All original material should be available in the full
online quality. But what do I know...

That's an interesting question Bryan.

I think if I were gonna do a project like that I would:

1. Create full res HD graphic elements
2. Make copies of elements-add "ol" to the name
3. Resize the copies to fit DV resolution aspect ratio
4. Do offline
5. Before online, rename the original elements and add "ol" to name
6. Online

There are a lot of opportunity for strangeness here, and I think it would only work quick and easily if the DV project is 16x9. I would make sure to do a couple of quick tests first, before I finalized the workflow.

Good Luck!

So, you folks using it, is it worth the time and effort?
Can I expect Z1/M10 output capability soon?

Is the process really as long as it seems like it will be?

The new beta version of Lumiere HD (Version 1.5b10) now allows encoding of MPEG2 Transport Stream compatible with the new Sony HDV devices, including:

- SONY HDR-FX1(1080i60)
- SONY HDR-FX1(E) (1080i50)
- SONY HVR-Z1 (1080i50/60)
- SONY HVR-M10U (1080i50/60)

Lumiere HD can take any 1440 X 1080, 60i clip (Any codec) and encode it to an MPEG2 transport stream the Sony cameras and deck can receive.

Customers can download the new beta, free of charge from:

http://www.lumierehd.com/beta_download.php

Frederic

Hi Frederic, I have a valid 1.2 version of Lumiere HD....but, I can't seem to get the betas working. I've tried to activate using the latest number I recieved.

I'm a Z1U owner, so I could be of help with testing it.

Christopher Murhy? Never heard of you...sorry

Just kidding Murph. Send me an email with your S/N

Frederic

I believe you already can.

hwm

I have Lumiere (yes, the new version), but it converted everything out of sync. No matter how hard I tried to sync the audio, it still drifted. I gave up and purchased FC Express.

Now that I have my project completed (2 hour feature), I need to get it to tape. I need my HDV 16:9 footage resized to 4:3/letterbox and recorded to DV Cam tape.

FC Express has no option for 4:3. FC Pro does. I have output 1 min. test clips to DV Cam and they look "ghost-like" on the sped up motion clips and the regular clips look pixilated (almost like a posterized effect). Any suggestions/solutions?

I used FC PRO to output these test clips. Since Lumiere doesn't have very good instructions, I can't figure out how to lay to tape once I have made an mt2 conversion. Also, is that conversion oly for laying back to HDV or can I lay to DV Cam using Lumiere?

HELP!

Interesting little tidbit for those interested in the 24P function of the new JVC cam.

Check out Mike's great site, HD for Indies (www.hdforindies.com)


Scroll a little down the page, it's a few articles down.
the headline reads:

"LumiereHD to Handle JVC's 24P ProHD format"

Hmm, interesting, especially the part that says that the HD100 does not record 24 frames per second to tape, but 60 frames, a la Varicam and DVX (fields rather than frames with the DVX but same principle).

Does this mean that the HD100 is also recording 60 frames when it's recording 30p mode as well?

So why no 60p in this camera? We know it can SCAN 60p at the CCDs as it can output 60p from the component outs.

That HDForIndies site is saying that their info is directly contradicting what Steve Mullen wrote, about ProHD recording a direct 24p stream. Interesting. Obviously somebody's got it wrong.

If there's pulldown, it'd be one duplicate frame, not an interleaved 60i style recording like the DVX/XL2 use. The JVC is based around HDV30p, so to get HDV24p they'd either invent their own format for 24p recording (as we thought they had, with ProHD) or they'd add one duplicate frame for every four "legit" frames. But still recording 30p.

I don't know why they don't record 60p though... HDV provides for 60p. Maybe today's codecs can't make a satisfactory image from 60 progressive 720p images crammed all into 19 megabits of space? Remember, HDV 720p is 19 megabits no matter what frame rate you're running it at, whether 25, 30, or 60.

Mike's site is great. Thanks for the heads up.

ProHD 24 encodes only 24 frames per second but repeats these frames over 60 progressive frames.

The repeated frames are only 1 bit "repeat" flags. It doesn't do 60p encodes and I believe the obstacle here might be the sensor.

It's a great camera. Hopefully we'll have some footage to share with you soon.

Frederic

Hi Frederic,

It was great to see you at NAB (and also Mike Curtis; wish we could have had a photograph together). If you have any sort of press release information or other announcements regarding Lumiere, please be sure to post them here -- it's your forum after all! Cheers,

Chris,

It was good seeing you too! What a show...

The camera will output full 60p live from the component HD and I suspect the Firestore solution might be able to record 60p!

Frederic

What will look better on a high end 1080p TV set, high end 25 Mbps 1080i60 HDV or high end 19 Mbps 720p60 HDV?

Radek

The bit rate really doesn't have that much to do with it. If you have a satellite receiver plugged into that set, then you'll be watching MPEG video compressed at a much higher rate than 19mbps.

There are some folks who perceive 720p to be "better" than 1080i due to the Kell factor. I think the real answer to your question is a subjective one, as in, which one looks better to you. And you're the only person who can answer that. You have a 1080p television in your home?

I don't have 1080p TV. I just wanted to have expert opinion, Chris. Your answer is true but I would like to know what expert that runs this forum thinks.

Radek

ask Douglas S. Eagle, he's the expert, if he doesn't reply, E-mail him.

What will look better on a high end 1080p TV set, high end 25 Mbps 1080i60 HDV or high end 19 Mbps 720p60 HDV?

Unless you have some sort of access to a 1080p display, a better question might be what looks better on a 720p display. Also, I'm not aware of any proposal for an HDV camera which records 720p60, so maybe you're thinking of the Panasonic DVCProHD camera?

In any case, any decent HD video should look better on a high-end HDTV than any SD video, with maybe a few exceptions under some unusual conditions.

Unless you have some sort of access to a 1080p display, a better question might be what looks better on a 720p display. Also, I'm not aware of any proposal for an HDV camera which records 720p60, so maybe you're thinking of the Panasonic DVCProHD camera?

HDV spec includes 720/60p at 19 Mbps. It's probably just matter of time to see it in cameras. New top displays are 1080p.

Radek

Hey,

I'm trying to export a video to tape with Lumiere. I'm using an FX1. Here's my problem: After I take my uncompressed HD master and use Lumiere to convert it to a transport stream (yes, I did confirm it's set to FX1 export--not FX1E), when I hit print to tape the video seems to "offset" a bit. The left edge of the video is on the right edge of the screen--kind of like a poor tracking deal, but horizontally. Also, the audio seems to have sped up, so the audio and video are completely out of sync.

Has anybody else had a similar problem? Any known solutions?

Thanks for any help!

ProHD 24 encodes only 24 frames per second but repeats these frames over 60 progressive frames.

Frederic

Great to see you at NAB.

The CCDs run at 48Hz. Unless the Anti-Juddder filter is turned on, every other frame is dropped.

The encoder can only record: 24, 25, and 30fps OR only 25 and 30fps. In no case, are 60 frames encoded or recorded.

Therefore, either 24p is recorded directly to tape (just as 25p is recorded to tape) OR the 24fps are placed (somehow) within the 30fps. This is not simple -- as the 24fps frames arrive at a rate of 1/24th second while the 30fps are recorded every 1/30th second.

This is why I have always believed that 720p24 is recorded just like 720p25 -- and 720p30. No repeat frames are needed.

What is confusing folks are the analog output and the i.LINK output. They may be very different.

1) Analog output is 720p50/720p60 or 1080i50/1080i60. This is true when shooting or playing back. When shooting or playing 24p, analog output is also 720p60 or 1080i60, but with 2:3:2:3 pulldown. Every NLE will understand this pulldown.

2A) The 24p comes down the i.LINK just like 25p and 30p.That's how 720p30 works now where you create a 720p60 Timeline and each incoming frame is doubled. In this case, the same thing will be done with 25p, and we'll get a 720p50 Timeline.

However, 24p would go directly into a 720p24 Timeline. This requires a new input option since video has never come in at 24fps.

2B) Upon playback, both 25p and 30p are frame-doubled in the camcorder to 720p50 and 720p60 and sent via i.LINK. This can be done because the Motion Filter has converted the CCD output at 720p50 and 720p60 to 25p and 30p. Thus, it can be converted back to 50p and 60p.

In this case, both will be input to the NLE as 720p50 and 720p60 -- just like DVCPRO HD. What will the camcorder do with 24p?

Ideally it would simply send 720p24 down i.LINK. Again, this requires a new input option since video has never come in at 24fps.

However, the camcorder can apply 2:3:2:3 pulldown to get 720p60. If this is the way it's done, then you'll have to remove the pulldown to get back to 24fps. The advantage is that the NLE will work just like it does now with 24fps in 720p60 video.

I frankly do not believe in some other "repeat frame" scheme. Either it's pure 24fps or 24fps is carried within an industry standard pulldown. I suspect pulldown is used because all NLE's understand 24fps within 60p or 60i. No new software will be required.

All that's needed is that the i.LINK driver recognize the HD-100 and its range of options. Clearly Avid already knows how to do this since they were demonstrating it at NAB. I expect Apple to have an HD100 update in July, before Avids ships.

But, as Frederic says, the MPEG2 stream coming down that firewire cable is a 60fps stream, not a 24p one, but it only contains data for 24 out of those 60 frames, with the extra frames being small pointers to one of the real 24 frames that gets duplicated. If you just put the MPEG2 stream straight into a MPEG decoder, it sees 60fps and gives you a 60fps video with the 24 real frames embedded into it.

Graeme

"But, as Frederic says, the MPEG2 stream coming down that firewire cable is a 60fps stream, not a 24p one, but it only contains data for 24 out of those 60 frames, with the extra frames being small pointers to one of the real 24 frames that gets duplicated."

There's no such thing as REPEAT frames frames replaced by "pointers." (Where did you hear this idea?)

There must me 60 full frames per second to keep the 60Hz timing right. What may be true is that the REPEAT frames are flagged -- something very different.

There are many ways 24 can be embedded in 60. That's call the pulldown cadence. Frederic seems to be claimg JVC has done some non-standard pulldown. One that will require special software to remove all but the 24 frames.

I don't buy this because for the analog output, JVC must use 2:3:2:3 pulldown which is the industry standard. Now if it adds 2:3 to the 24fps for analog -- I really doubt that it does send exactly the same cadence down the i.LINK.

If 2:3 is sent down the i.LINK, then any NLE that deals with telecined video can handle it. No extra software is needed. FCP will never know this wasn't film transfered to video -- excapt the video is progressive and not-interlaced. This is already done with DVCPRO HD at 24fps..

Now the OS X FireWire driver may have to be modified to accept 720p60 at 1280x720 since that is different than Panasonic which is 960x720. But, that is a trivial change.

Likewise the driver will have to be modified to allow 720p25 and 720p50. I'm sure will see an unpdate before AVID ships there HD-100 solution this summer.

I just purchased Lumiere HD to try to solve issues I am having using FCP 5 to get video back onto my HDR-FX1 after I have edited it in FCP. I have followed the instructions on the Lumiere site but am having the same issues as you. My video is streched and offset and the audio is sped up, causing the audio and video to go out of sync.
I would love any help in resolving this. I am still unable to get video back to my camera either in FCP 5 or with Lumiere. Lumiere HD's support seems to be non-existant.

Is it possible to capture 720p24 with Lumiere?

I thought I saw something to the effect on www.lumierehd.com their latest beta (you need to buy the full version, then download the beta) supports the HD100.

I'm shooting stuff Sunday for a short on the HD100 and plan on using FCP 5 to edit it natively.

heath

Is it possible to capture 720p24 with Lumiere?

Lumiere HD 2.0 due out in a couple weeks will support HDV 24 from JVC.

Frederic

Lumiere HD 2.0 due out in a couple weeks will support HDV 24 from JVC.

Frederic

Frederic,

Does Lumiere maintain the original TC? Can I convert to a lower rez proxy for offline and then re-conform later from HDV?

I'm not aware of any proposal for an HDV camera which records 720p60, so maybe you're thinking of the Panasonic DVCProHD camera?

The JVC GY-HD7000 due out next year will shoot and record 720P60 in a HDV format. There is talk that it may use a higher bandwidth than 19.2Mb to maintain a higher quality. aka ProHD XE
The JVC HD100 records 720P60 to tape at 19.2Mb/sec all the time as a format, but the captured 24P or 30P are embedded with repeat frames. The HD100 will output 720P60 live to the component outputs when in 720P30 mode.
ABC and FOX broadcast 720P60.

Frederic,

I registered before I purchased. How do I now enter my serial number to get tech support?

Tim

Yeah I need that too, cause I am havingsome problems with the beta version. It won't permit me to enter the name of the file.

Hi there,

I have searched for threads but with no luck yet...

We have....Captured JVC HDV 24p in Lumiere and transfered over to FCP 5.0 and altough the capture is there it seems to be playing out at 10fps. We have checked all settings.... have I missed something in another thread?

Please enlighten me,

James
DP
Earthmedia Imaging and Film
Mozambique

Yeah I need that too, cause I am havingsome problems with the beta version. It won't permit me to enter the name of the file.

Brian,

You need to register on our forum at:

http://lumierehd.com/forums/

Frederic

You're using the latest beta? 1.6b2

Just curious. I know lumiereHD is supposed to great job of converting HDV to a myriad of file formats, but now that FCP5 is native HDV...is LumiereHD still necessary? That is with an FX1, not anything new like the XLH1.

please advise.

No! Unless you have a JVC HDV Camera

Hey Steve,
I don't supose you know when FCP will fully suport JVC hdv cameras in hdv25p mode? (i have the hd100e). Will it be a maintenance upgrade to FCP5 or will they bring it out in FCP6?

cheers Andy.

How about in a situation where you are doing a lot of after effects work? I hear the recompression to HDV is a killer. Would it then be better to use say the DVCPROHD codec for all of one's work or is staying HDV fine?

Hey Steve,
I don't supose you know when FCP will fully suport JVC hdv cameras in hdv25p mode? (i have the hd100e). Will it be a maintenance upgrade to FCP5 or will they bring it out in FCP6?

cheers Andy.

There's just been a maintenance release with no sign of support for the JVC or Canon. David Newman from Cineform said it's not a big deal to add this support so I have no idea why they haven't - perhaps when 6 is released next year?

Can someone please help me with this issue, it's VERY important right now:

I'm trying to edit HD100 footage in final cut pro, I'm using lumiere HD but it won't let me name the clips. More importantly, after encoding the "realtime timeline codec" with the DVCPRO HD 720p60 preset and importing the XML file into a quicktime sequence set to either 24 or 23.98 it forces me to render the footage... what is this BS? Isn't the concept of this program realtime editing? I'm so fed up, please someone help me.

This is what the sequence looks like:

The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 23.98

Compressor DVCPRO HD 720p60

When rendering, the audio is out of sync. Can someone please shed some light on this? I have a deadline fast approaching and I might lose my job if I don't get this to work.

All I want is to capture and edit GYHD100 footage in Final Cut Pro, I have lumiere HD, I followed their steps but they say nothing specifically on how to deal with the GYHD100 what do I do?

Look below...

Welcome to dvinfo Bruce.

We actually have a whole forum dedicated to Lumiere HD.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=77

Lumiere HD has an issue with FCP5 and audio sync which requires a specific workflow (which admittedly I have not tested myself.)
You will require the latest beta (1.6b2) which you have probably already downloaded, and then attempt to follow these instructions:


Here's a customized, temporary, workflow for our users who want to cut ProHD24p in FCP 5.0.

Most of these steps will be automated in future releases of Lumiere HD:

1. Capture with LHD
2. Demux audio and video in separate folders. (end up with 23.98 m2v and 48KHz aiff)
3. Open m2v in QT Pro
4. Open aiff in QT Pro
5. Select all aiff
6. Copy
7. Place play head at the beginning of m2v
8. Select all m2v
9. Add to selection and scale
10. File/Save as (Save as reference movie -- same name.mov) in a folder called 'digital_negative'
11. Open all digital negative movs and export to codec of choice in 23.98 (DV, 720 X 480, 23.98) to a folder called 'realtime_clips'
12. Open FCP, set easy setup to realtime_clips specs (DV, NTSC, 23.98)
13. Import all realtime_clips
14. input a reel for each clip in the browser
15. Edit with realtime

GOING ONLINE

1. Select the sequence/ Choose Media Manager
2. Media Manager settings:
Media: Create Offline
Set Sequence to Custom:
1280 X 720
PAS: Square
Anamorphic 'not checked'
Editing Timebase: 23.98
Timecode rate: Same...
Compressor: HDV 720p30
Audio: 48 KHz, 16 bit, default
3. Save project name: Online720p24
4. Go to 'Online720p24' tab in browser/double click on sequence (clips should be offline)
5. Select all clips in browser (above sequence), choose 'Reconnect Media'
6. Point to the 'digital_negative' clips (ignore Mismatch warning) and all your clips should reconnect

You now have a full HDV24 version of a timeline you edited in DV

We are doing our best to keep up with the latest formats and offer our customers working solutions, now. Expect frequent releases from Lumiere HD...

Thank you,

Frederic
__________________
Frederic Haubrich
Lumiere HD

You lost me here,

9. Add to selection and scale

What does that mean?

Tim, could you please enlighten me as to what settings I specifically have to have in my timeline? I capture in lumiere, demultiplex, convert the things into m2vs, then I do the timeline codec, encode DVPRO HD 720p60 right, is this wrong? Wrong codec? Then it presents me with the next dialogue, checking for the

compression: DVCPRO HD 720p60
quality: best
Frame rate: 30

I change the frame rate from 30 to "current" there is option for 24 but not for 23.98

Then I hit ok and it creates an xml and the .mov

Then I go into my FCP 5 and I set the sequence to any of the following:

1. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 23.98

Compressor DVCPRO HD 720p60

2. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 24

Compressor DVCPRO HD 720p60

3. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 23.98

Compressor Apple Intermediate Codec

4. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 23.98

Compressor HDV 720p30

5. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 24

Compressor HDV 720p30

NONE OF THESE OPTIONS WORK

I import the XML. When I drag the files brought over in the xml from lumiere, it requires me to render them out... Please tell me what I need to do in order to get this so that it can be edited in real time. With no rendering? This question wasn't answered in my last post. What settings specifically are needed for the sequence? Can't I just sync the audio tracks by hand if say I shot with a clapperboard?

When will this update be available for Final Cut Pro? I'm so sick and tireeeeeeddd of this... I'm sorry to sound so desperate, but I am, I'm in a pretty dire situation and if I don't get this to work I'm in serious trouble!!! please can someone please refer me to an intelligble guide on how to get footage from my HD100 onto the timeline in FCP to be edited in real time? I am willing to pay someone for usable information! i I need to get the goddamn thing to work, it's very important!!! I know people are using FCP and lumiere to edit HD100 footage, I'm pretty sure NATE WEAVER is using it to edit, perhaps he could shed some light on the subject.... He made that amazing music video, dirthouse and I'm pretty sure he's editing with FCP on a MAC, please help please I'm not a bright guy and I may lose my job if I don't meet a coming deadline. I can't afford this, please edify me, enlighten me as to how I edit in real time!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim, could you please enlighten me as to what settings I specifically have to have in my timeline? I capture in lumiere, demultiplex, convert the things into m2vs, then I do the timeline codec, encode DVPRO HD 720p60 right, is this wrong? Wrong codec? Then it presents me with the next dialogue, checking for the

compression: DVCPRO HD 720p60
quality: best
Frame rate: 30

I change the frame rate from 30 to "current" there is option for 24 but not for 23.98

Then I hit ok and it creates an xml and the .mov

Then I go into my FCP 5 and I set the sequence to any of the following:

1. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 23.98

Compressor DVCPRO HD 720p60

2. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 24

Compressor DVCPRO HD 720p60

3. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 23.98

Compressor Apple Intermediate Codec

4. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 23.98

Compressor HDV 720p30

5. The frame size is 1280 x 720 - HDTV 720p (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square

Editing Timebase 24

Compressor HDV 720p30

NONE OF THESE OPTIONS WORK

I import the XML. When I drag the files brought over in the xml from lumiere, it requires me to render them out... Please tell me what I need to do in order to get this so that I don't have to render... so it can be edited in real time. With no rendering? This question wasn't answered in my last post. What settings specifically are needed for the sequence? Can't I just sync the audio tracks by hand if say I shot with a clapperboard?

When will this update be available for Final Cut Pro? I'm so sick and tireeeeeeddd of this... I'm sorry to sound so desperate, but I am, I'm in a pretty dire situation and if I don't get this to work I'm in serious trouble!!! please can someone please refer me to an intelligble guide on how to get footage from my HD100 onto the timeline in FCP to be edited in real time? I am willing to pay someone for usable information! i I need to get the goddamn thing to work, it's very important!!! I know people are using FCP and lumiere to edit HD100 footage, I'm pretty sure NATE WEAVER is using it to edit, perhaps he could shed some light on the subject.... He made that amazing music video, dirthouse and I'm pretty sure he's editing with FCP on a MAC, please help please I'm not a bright guy and I may lose my job if I don't meet a coming deadline. I can't afford this, please edify me, enlighten me as to how I edit in real time!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm in india and saw your post as its day here. I'm on a treo so can't give detailed help.

I would not use lumier.

if you want to work "double system" there is a detailed explanation at my site.

If you are still working tonight and there's no answer from tim, you can buy my ebook and download it as it has several methods.

good luck!

Bruce, it's late and I'm not thinking clearly, but I can tell you my workflow had nothing to do with Lumiere.

Whenever I'm having the problem you're having, I open the media in question in Quicktime Player, do a "Get Info", and study the framerate, codec, etc very carefully.

One thing that could be wrong, but I don't know as I've never used media from Lumiere, is that your frame size MIGHT need to be 960x720 with a pixel aspect ratio of 16x9 HD. I'd load the sequence preset for 720p DVCPRO HD and then change the frame rate to 24 and see if that helps.

I'd also try changing sequence framerate to 59.94...Lumiere might be encoding the new media verbatim from the 59.94 MPEG stream.

Either way open those Lumiere files in QT Pro and tell us what it says.