<<<-- Every indie filmmaker (accept for one lucky one a year) that shoots at 25Mbps will be unaccepted by distributors for blowup because it looks like what it is . . . a cheap movie. Now I'm not saying cheap-looking movies can't be great, I'm just saying they won't be picked up very often. ->>>

Laurence:

While I understand your technical point about the technical limitations in film blow-up, I need to get on my soapbox about why those limitations are pretty irrelevant, both to the art and business of filmmaking.

I've got numerous friends and associates with 35mm indie & independent films still on the shelf, never picked up. The fact is indie films are rarely picked up no matter what they are shot on. That's the nature of the indie art. My guess from sheer numbers, that more DV indie films find distribution than 35mm simply because they often can make lower margin deals.

Don't forget, "distribution" is DVD releases, international etc. My local Hollywood and blockbuster has dozens of shot on DV features at anyone time that are indies.

A true "indie" is financed out of pocket by filmmaker and friends as opposed to "independent" which generally refers to films independent of studio financing. The sheer cost of 35mm filmmaking pushes most "indie" films into "independents" where they have to find a bank/investor to back the project.

We need to open our minds to the possibility that not everyone needs to make a huge movie to be a a filmmaker. I, for one, thank god for DV and digital projection. It allows filmmaking to become a much more personal, local and community art-form than it ever has been.

Need proof? I helped start Triad Indie Film Network (www.triadindie.com) here in our community. It's all about personal filmmaking and yes, even blowing up shorts to 16 or 35mm. Not for 1000 theaters, but for 1.

You can blow up anything to 35mm - VHS is fine. Just engage your audience - that's all that really matters. We just had our first TIFN film festival of 10 second, 60 second and 3 minute shorts. A third of the filmmakers had never mad a film before. A third made films without even using a motion camera. None were shot on film (except for my 10 second, shot with a still camera). We had almost 200 people in a coffee house loving every minute of it - more than was watching any hollywood film or the independent film house that night.

"picked up" only matter for the few, lucky filmmakers that get that "big break". The rest of should just keep making films and support those filmmakers that truly need it.

Anyway, that's my soapbox for the day.

Don-

I'm ready, just let it be something worth investing in.

Even if it is not "HDV" what's the bleeding point, I've seen real HD look like bad dv and I've seen good SD look like HD, and to be honest with you it doesn't really matter it's how you shoot it. Will I buy it if it's HDV you betcha, will I buy it if it's SD, more then likely and I'll be starting a very lengthy correspondace with Mr Pertierra (if he'll still talk to me) IF there is some way to add 4:4:4 color correction and real intechangable lens with a P+S like adapter (build it yourself) then I'm all for it.

Unfortunately I also believe that Steve and Mark are correct and that there really will be some hella price gouging (even if it has half the item's speculated) for a camera that could be 90% hype and suffer from critical DV flaws.

I don't however believe that the "price of glass is crap" argument is crap. HD glass is very thin and must calibrated very specifically, HD glass is less forgiving then film glass (not an argument for HD) and there's a difference between making glass that will be left on a camera and never removed and glass that will be rotated in and out of camera's and will need to be back focused etc. As a result HD interchangable lens are going to be expensive. Technology nothing, have you tried to buy a Zeiss superspeed used? if it's in good shape most lenses will hold their value well, because lens technology doesn't change nearly as quickly as electronic technology.

Stephen I'm just curious have you guy's sought sponsor ship by tiffen? TIFN get it?

Jack, If I was to get 24p and HD I would really be upset if my HD didn't record at 24p.

Laurence:

Stephen just made about every point I was going to make about content being king, artistry over format, etc.

But I have to disagree about the technical possibilities of HDV for blowup. The limitation of video right now for 35mm blowup isn't in signal processing or the ability to make video look like film. The DVX100's CineGamma and the literally staggering array of post options can take care of that easily. To my thinking, the biggest limitation is sheer pixel count. You just can't blow up 720x480 to a theater-size screen, either by filmout or digital projection and expect it to hold up. 720p, on the other hand is a different story. That's Varicam. Or, hope against hope, 1080p. That's CineAlta.

Now, I'm not saying that a $5000 camera is going to be equal to a Varicam or CineAlta. It won't. But if the HDV consortium is confident that 720 30p and 1080 60i can fit within the 25Mb/s, 24p at either 720 or 1080 should be entirely possible. From the footage I've seen out of the JVC HD10, I'm a believer. Have you seen that footage? When well shot, it's practically indistinguishable from $100k cameras. It will happen, and soon from the looks of it.

This is what I've been saying for years now. The barriers to entry for features are fading fast. Some indie filmmaker is going to take this tool, make a killer movie on the cheap, edit it on a home computer with off the shelf hardware, and win Sundance. And the only people complaining about image quality will be tech geeks like us. The vast majority of the audience won't even know or care that it was shot on a prosumer camcorder. Who knows, it might even fool a few distribution execs.

Unfortunately, 95% of indie films will still be crap. Just like when everyone was shooting 35. Or Super-16. Or DV.

Bring it on Canon. A lot of people are holding thier breath.

"To my thinking, the biggest limitation is sheer pixel count"

I have to agree with Scott on this point.

After reading this thread yesterday, I was color correcting
some DV footage (24p from the DVX). And, I have to say,
I'm constantly amazed at how great that footage can look
when correcting mids and closeups. THEN I got to a wide
exterior shot, and the footage just falls apart. The pixels
just aren't there.

That got me thinking about Charles' comments yesterday
about how on 28 Day's Later they used multiple XL1s and
stitched shots together in post for the wide city shots.

With HDV, that would not have been necessary.

Sure, HDV may not be the perfect solution, but it is A
solution.

The color sampling in DV has never been the problem.
Sure it would be nice to have 4:2:2, but with a steady and
subtle hand, you can correct DV footage to look very very
good. The problem, as Scott pointed out, is sheer pixel
count.

I don't expect HDV to be great, but in the meanwhile, for
people like myself who can't afford tens of thousands on
camera gear, it may just be 'good enough'

-Luis

ps.
now let's just hope we'll see 720p24 next week from Canon.
I'm not holding my breath for that.

<<The limitation of video right now for 35mm blowup isn't in signal processing or the ability to make video look like film.>>

I would add to this, at the very least, latitude. Especially at the low end of the video chain, such as we are discussing. All well and good in completely controllable environments like interiors; not so good in exteriors with mix of sunshine and shade. White blowouts in the sky--not so filmic.

I just like to buy stuff....

I have to agree with Charles. I've downloaded a number of clips shot with the JVC HDV cam. While the pixels are there, unless you go through great pains to control it's painfully limited latitude, it really can look bad. But, that's not HDV, that's bad optics, electronics etc.

"I would add to this, at the very least, latitude."


Absolutely we need improvements in latitude.
But, although I do not want to disagree with Charles as he obviously knows more than I do about these things, I would say that what I meant was the bare minimum needed to get a decent projected image.

Increased latitude would be great, but I see it as a bonus. Without added resolution, the latitude wouldn't mean much. The image may look a bit more controlled, and more filmic, but wide shots woudl still completely fall apart once projected from a DV source.

Granted, increased latitude in DV would be great for broadcast work, and DVD work. I was simply commenting earlier on what was needed to get decent projection.

-Luis

Luis:

The pixel count for projection is only signifigant if you can project native - our monthly screenings project a variety of stuff off DVD. Well shot DV always looks better than poorly shot HD.

From the footage I've seen out of the JVC HD10, I'm a believer. Have you seen that footage? When well shot, it's practically indistinguishable from $100k cameras. It will happen, and soon from the looks of it.

Practically indistinguishable? C'mon. Do you not notice the excessive dithering in colors throughout the entire frame, the excessive quantization amidst any movement and the excessive noise artifacts in any color, especially full-field colors? That is HDV. Iv'e seen hundreds of examples of HDV and have seen the best of the HDV samples out there, they all exhibit these flaws. VariCam and CineAlta do not exhibit these anomalies at all.

Even in the JVC booth at NAB this year, the best footage they had to show was unnacceptable as far as dithering, quantization and noise artifacts go. Even the footage they were showing of some "film" which was being shown on a big screen directly above the prototype of their upcoming full-sized 3CCD HDV camcorder looked flawed in these areas. That is not acceptable for filmout, at all. The only time I have seen HDV look anything remotely close to true High Definition is when the HDV clip is played at a quarter-frame screen size on a computer screen. Not when it is resolved full frame on a large screen. You can still see the anomalies though. I know there will be people out there who will contest this, and I ask them to return to their screens and look for all of the dithering in the colors throughout the frame, the excessive quantization amidst any movement and the excessive noise artifacts in any colors... Try to color correct or apply any digital filtering on that footage in post and watch it fall apart.

I'm sorry to sound negative here (Honest, I have nothing but the best intentions!), but I cannot understand why no one else is pointing out these issues about HDV, why isn't anyone else taking the time to notice these flaws? If you ARE noticing them, why are you accepting them?

- don

I'm sorry to sound negative here (Honest, I have nothing but the best intentions!), but I cannot understand why no one else is pointing out these issues about HDV, why isn't anyone else taking the time to notice these flaws? If you ARE noticing them, why are you accepting them?
- don

Well, I think that we can accept these flaws because HDV is the best most of us will be able to get for a few years ^_^. If we all could go out and buy Varicams or SDX900's or CineAlta setups, then we'd be hunkydory, but we can't, so most of us will have to settle with HDV, just like people did with DV. But besides that, I think that people just need to learn how to shoot in HDV and discover ways to eliminate these shortcomings you've pointed out. Also, you seem to be the only one complaining, so that's just it, other people don't notice these flaws, just us camera tech geeks on here!

:-)

Maybe we'll all just get shockingly lucky and Canon will ignore the HDV standards and use some less compressed standard.

Now, I am dreaming.


And as far as SD goes, sure, you can shoot a feature on a pd150 and get it distributed...AS LONG AS IT HAS SIGOURNEY WEAVER or COURTNEY COX or KATIE HOLMES or SIMILIAR STAR in it.

<<<--And as far as SD goes, sure, you can shoot a feature on a pd150 and get it distributed...AS LONG AS IT HAS SIGOURNEY WEAVER or COURTNEY COX or KATIE HOLMES or SIMILIAR STAR in it. -->>>

Not true at all - just go to your local video store and they are full of shot on SD films with no names, often genre style straight to video flicks. But they are distributed. Many 35mm and DV features never have a US theaterical release.

"The pixel count for projection is only signifigant if you can project native"


I was going on the assumption that we were talking about projecting HDV as opposed to projecting DV.

I didnt' expect it to make much difference if HDV material was going to be projected at DV resolution.

" - our monthly screenings project a variety of stuff off DVD. Well shot DV always looks better than poorly shot HD""

No argument there.
I was also going on the assumption that we were talking about footage shot at equal levels of skill. Taking one extreme against the other isnt' exactly a scientific study on the effects of resolution.

I agree, well shot DV will always look better than poorly shot HD.

But how much better will well shot HDV look than well shot DV if each is projected in it's native format?

I don't care about HDV all that much, so I didn't mean to pull the thread off topic. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, most projects I've seen would be unengaging regardless of the format they were shot in. And, I'm under no delusion that my own projects would have been better if shot in a higher resolution format. I was just commenting on what was needed to get a cleaner projected image, and I do believe it comes down to pixels.

In the end, I'm just looking for a native 16x9 camera with XLR inputs, 24p, and interchangable lenses that is within my budget.

HDV would just be a neat addition.

Hopefully Canon will deliver.

-Luis

Well,

I'm not sure where my point was taken for DVD and direct to video, but I was talking specifically for screen blowup . . . which is where the subject was before my last post. And I still hold. If you're blowing up to a big screen, this HDV, plain and simple, won't hold up. Not at 25 Mbps it won't.

As for DVD or straight to video, well that's okay. DVX-100 looks pretty good on my TV screen. But again, that's not blowup. Projected in a theater, it will not hold up. And neither will the Canon if it's HDV at 25Mbps.

. . . unless your Sodenbergh . . . then you can make really lame DV flicks all you want and distribute them, god help us.

Just IMHO

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Grgurev : I just figured out that I'm to young to go to DV Expo East(I'm 15). -->>>

That's interesting. My daughter is considered one of the most gifted up & coming filmmakers in the southwest (no kidding). She gets into every convention, SIG, and festival that we register for. She's nine. It seems that the younger you are and the more talented, the easier it is to get acceptance... case in point, Tiger Woods.

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Well,

And I still hold. If you're blowing up to a big screen, this HDV, plain and simple, won't hold up. Not at 25 Mbps it won't. >>>


It's hard to see why that's true. I've projected miniDV that was filmlooked to aroudn 360 lines off a crappy projector (3 year 800 lumens Epson low end business projector) in a multiplex theater with a 50 ft screen and completely sold out the theater (albiet for a single night) Not a single audience member complained about the image quality. To my eye, it looked like low-rez video. Not to anyone else.

The problem is with our assertion is that what I think you are really saying "it to my technicial standards, it does not hold up". You earlier claimed that distributors won't pick it up, but given the number of DV films in theaterical release world-wide, I can't see that holds water either.

While your standard is perfectly valid for you, for many other, filmmakers, audience and distributors, proejcted video is just fine, artifacts and all -- if the content is compelling.

If you just shot Gigli, all the beatiful IMAX footage in the world is not going to help you at all.

And good artist will use the limations of the DV or HDV image to their advantage. I, for one. kind of liked the look in Soderberg's film - I tend to grunge up video for some projects my self - more like impressionism that realism.

No one complains that Van Gogh and Renior's resolution was too low of large paintings... :)

So I don't care too much if the XL2 is DV, HDV or HD. So long as it give me choices for various kinds of imagery - that's all I really want. The most choices for the dollar.

Thanks for responding Eric. I could probably pass off as 18 but I dont wanna take any chances. But I really need to know if you can take camcorders. My bro can just take pictures but if he could take video it would be ten times better. Oh, by the way, do you let your daughter use your cam or did you buy her her own?

Mark, I've done DV Expo for several years and have always seen personally owned camcorders on the show floor. Should be no big deal. Just check with the show's management at dvexpo.com for a legitimate ruling on that question.

Stephen van Vuuren wrote: ----and completely sold out the theater, albeit for one night only. Not a single audience member complained about the image quality-----
----------------------------------------

That's quite an accomplishment, getting that many of your family members together at one time. The most relatives of mine I've ever been able to coerce to sit through one of my videos was 4 or 5 and they were always very critical.

Steve McDonald

<<< Oh, by the way, do you let your daughter use your cam or did you buy her her own? -->>>

I started her off when she was 5 around Christmas time just doing basic framing using a Polaroid Instamatic. She enjoyed it so much that over the years we gradually moved her into motion with very cheap and destructable VHS cameras. She now has a basic working knowledge of the Canon XL1S and the Aaton Super 16 film camera. She doesn't really anticipate any HD anything. She just likes making shorts and mock up commercials with friends and family. She does crash cam stuff with her brother going down slides so owning any expensive gear is out of the question. However, 50 dollar cameras from Ebay and the local Pawn shop poses no problem.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve McDonald :
That's quite an accomplishment, getting that many of your family members together at one time. The most relatives of mine I've ever been able to coerce to sit through one of my videos was 4 or 5 and they were always very critical.

Steve McDonald -->>>

It was a public screening and it was not for my film (I edited it) - one of my shorts was the warmup.

And no, neither of us had any family members other than spouses. It was a public screening and the theater sold tickets.

I did do my own film premiere at local stage theater - got a projector and screen donated, sold ticket and expected only family, friends and crew to show up. 250+ showed up, standing room only.

People around here have a hunger for indie films. But you have to beat the pavement to get the word out.

Your daughter is talented, Eric. I still haven't made a film. I've been writing a script for a Star Wars fanfilm for a year and its still not done and I only have a god awful JVC GR-DV800 that constantly has problems(over the past three days the viewfinder started to blink black and the lcd just displayed a black image), probably has lolux rating of like 100 lux, I got ripped off when I bought it (My brother, Micheal and I payed $800 at bestbuy and then i figured out I could have gotten the same thing with just a smaller lcd for $400) and its has awful battery life.

Mark Grgurev, you mention you're making a Star Wars fanfilm. Would you happen to be a member of TFN fanfilms? If so, I'm PixelMagic over there.

Hey, Daniel. I am a member of TFN Fanfilms but I dont remember my name or password so i was never able to post. I visit the forums everyday though and i can see your quite popular over there. I'm probably gonna get another name and password soon so, I'll see ya there.

"Who is actually ready to purchase -and- How much exactly are you prepared/ willing to invest?"

Count me in to the tune of about $4-$5K, if this camera is what I hope it will be.

I hope that Canon has the DVX squarley in the crosshairs, and gives us the first DV camera without handicaps.

If we see that, I'll hopefully be snatching one off the shelves as quickly as I can.

-Luis

What if Canon didn't announce a camera at all this week. That would be sad.

I'd advise everyone who's determined to spend their money on a Canon XL-series camcorder, to go out and find themselves an XL1s, while there are still some in stock.

Steve McDonald

<<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Broadway : What if Canon didn't announce a camera at all this week. That would be sad. -->>>

Geez, you sound like my brother...

Don't ask "what if" questions or you'll jinx everything! =D LOL!

Are you kidding? There will be a mad glut of xl1s on ebay for cheap in the next few months.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve McDonald : I'd advise everyone who's determined to spend their money on a Canon XL-series camcorder, to go out and find themselves an XL1s, while there are still some in stock.

Steve McDonald -->>>

lol I am pretty sure he was kidding, that ebay comment is funny though. I betcha you could get one for $1500 off ebay by next month if you wanted. Or 2.. or 3...

"I'd advise everyone who's determined to spend their money on a Canon XL-series camcorder, to go out and find themselves an XL1s, while there are still some in stock."


I assumed Steve's point was that the new camera will not be an XL-series camcorder.


Or maybe I'm just looking too much into this.
Only a few days away and I'm still guessing.

-Luis

PS.
There are still XL1 cameras selling on ebay for over $2500 with some accessories, and that camera is 3 years old now.

I don't know that the XL1s resale value is going to plummet that much right off the bat.

I think they will.. they are expensive right now because that is still the current model (I know its hard to believe)

Mind you, If the XL2 is a superior camera, Im sure a few DVX's will be hitting the EBay shelves as well.

Okay - Tomorrow is Monday and everyone on my crew is in heavy anticipation for some kind of announcement from Canon at the EXPO east. With all the speculation and hype, I truly pray that we'll be pleasantly surprised. Actually, I'm hoping that we'll be completely blown away!! At any rate, it's been fun reading all of your Christmas wish lists and digitally powered debates for the highly anticipated "XL2"!!

Not all of us are fortunate enough to escape to the Expo this year. I couldn't go now even if Scotty could beam me over because I'm locked into production. Some of you, however, will be attending. Who can we count on to be our designated reconnaissance specialist? Step up to the plate! Whom do we look to as or official XL2 - live on the scene - point correspondent for detailed and breaking information?? We will live vicariously through you. Whom shall it be? Who is this chosen one?

Seeing as this is the foremost Canon XL1s site on the net, I assume we will be able to count on Chris to let us know what the official word is as soon as it's announced.

By the way, just my guess, but I wouldn't hold your breath for an announcement tomorrow.

DV Expo East conference begins on Tuesday, and the Expo doesn't begin until Wednesday. I don't remember how Canon normally handles these announcements, but it's possible you won't hear anything until the middle of the week.

-Luis

Yeah, I would think the announcement would be around Wednesday as well.

I'm going to be fairly well tied up and consumed by the show, so even though I'll have net access from my hotel room, the truth is I won't be in the room that much except to catch a few hours' sleep. So if we have any members here who would like to report from DV Expo about anything they find interesting, DV Info Net would very much appreciate it. Thanks,

Well Chris, seeing as you'll be tied up all week with the show, it would probably just be easier if you told us everything you know right now then, while you still have some free time.
:)

what do you think?

I'm just thinking in the best interest of the DVinfo.net community of course. That way we'll be the best informed site, and a step ahead of the rest....

-Luis

Chris- if you want to reimburse me expenses (write-off-able ones like airfare, hotel, lunch, dinner) and sport me a ticket I'll gladly make myself available to do give everyone a blow by blow... do a few interviews, scan some materials in and set up a [page for you...

if you're feeling charitable I'll throw some stuff in a bag and high-tail it!

.....please?

Hmmmm, well, I just hope that SOMETHING new comes out by Tuesday, because I'm going to be going to Japan on Wednesday, meaning no internet available until I get back next Thursday. Unless Tokyo has plenty of internet hotspots (as I'm expecting some new laptops for my brother and I tommorow), then I'll be outta luck waiting in anticipation. <=P

Hey, anything I should buy when I'm in Tokyo? I know they have funky products like Sylvester Stallone potato chips and stuff, but anything camera/electronics related to keep an eye out for?

No problem Josh, I'll send the DV Info Net corporate Lear jet straight over to O'Hare and our limo will be outside your front door first thing in the morning!

Jack, do you realize your initial post that started this thread has generated nearly 350 responses and well over 12,000 page views?

Jack... if you can find one of these....

http://www.dynamism.com/u70/

that site has LOTS of cool Japanese tech things.

"No problem Josh, I'll send the DV Info Net corporate Lear jet straight over to O'Hare and our limo will be outside your front door first thing in the morning!"

That may be the funniest thing Chris has ever posted.
You actually had me for a split second...until I got to "lear jet"


"Jack, do you realize your initial post that started this thread has generated nearly 350 responses and well over 12,000 page views?"

You think it's a long thread now? Wait until later this week.

Or should we start a new thread eventually?

-Luis

PS.
as far as updating the site with information. I will do what I can.
I have a friend who will be attending, and calling me from the show floor via cell phone. If I hear anything of interest, I'll make sure to post it here ASAP.

(for what that's worth)

Steve Vuuren,

Well, I'm not trying to bring down your accomplishment on the sold out shows, I'm really not, but there's a huge difference between getting 1 sold out show via beating the streets and getting a distributor to pick something up for theatrical release (I'm talking relatively wide release). The last 2 films I saw that had relatively wide release mini dv was blair witch, then Farrenheit 911 (and I guess Columbine). That's less than 1 a year. At least that's all I remember. My point is, if you're really going to go for it, then GO FOR IT. Not dizzing mini dv look on a creative level. Hey man, if that's your bag, that's great. But how many people would truely chose that over 24p Viper equivilancy if they could get it? That brings true production value to your film that distributors see as viable. Remember, they're not artisists, they're businessmen. That's all I'm saying.

Actually, Blair Witch was Hi-8 & 16mm. And the other films you mentioned were mainly HD (and 16mm), not mini DV.


So, if you can't tell the formats apart, how much do they really matter if the story is engaging?

-Luis

28 days later... Jackass: the Movie... Uh... let me think...

A good amount of small productions not intended for a world wide release are shooting on Mini-DV because of the cost. A good example is Quebec-Montreal (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0316463/): an excellent road movie made for the theatrical release that was shot with 750000 $ CAD with three PD-150 (or DVX ? can't remember if this cam was available during the production). The format worked pretty well for this movie.

Jack, do you realize your initial post that started this thread has generated nearly 350 responses and well over 12,000 page views?

Am I finally special now? =D

But yeah, I never thought I'd start a thread THIS big in my life. But hey, I just reported a finding and everything went from there. ^_^

BTW, I guess I'll try to see what lil computer stuff they've got in Japan like that Sony Vaio thing. Can't guarantee I'll get one, but you never know. Maybe once I learn more Japanese I'll be able to read more than just little things like "hello, nice to meet you" (hajimemashite or dozoyoroshiku) or "where's the bathroom?" (otearai e ikimasu) or what color my room is, ect., ect.

I'll be happy to make it an even 350 replies.

Well, this is the week of the DV Expo East that some people think Cannon will be using to make the BIG announcement regarding the replacement for the XL1s. I'll believe it when I see it.

Nick