Okay, so hopefully someone from Sony reads this board.

The F3 looks like a great camera for the kind of work that I do. HOWEVER, there are a few aspects I think are particularly poor about the design.

1) The rear viewfinder is a waste of time, especially if it is the same finder as on the EX1. PLEASE add an option for a decent VF and think about how to make the camera work as a shoulder mount for handheld. If the LCD could be used as a VF as on the EX3, that would be great. I want a camera that is adaptable without having to add a load of 3rd party accessories.

2) Tripod mounting threads. As I have written elsewhere, a camera like this with a PL mount needs a solid mounting. One 1/4" thread like a Z1 or EX1 is totally inadequate. It needs a row of 1/4" and 3/8" threads along the bottom so that a plate can be attached in different positions for balance. The screw threads on top are great but need to be the highest point on the camera so that Steadicam plates can be attached securely for low mode.

I hope others agree, maybe it's just me.

Hi Mike,

Didn't realize you are a Steadicam Op. Cheers, on that...

I posed the question to the head of Sony Marketing in the UK during their Facebook Q & A just over a week ago along with a raft of other questions. He unfortunately, answered all the questions but not the one about making some minor modifications to the top of the camera for low mode wedge plates, like a removable viewfinder and lowering the shoe mount .5 cm.

Unfortunately, the design is now locked in from what I can tell. Production badged units are now seen out being tested by cinematographers so the physical side of the camera now, is what it is.

In my dreams, I hope that the major camera manufacturers will tear a page out of ARRI's design book on the Alexa. The camera looks fantastic and there are flat planes everywhere making it one of the most practical cameras from a package building perspective ever made.

For viewfinders people will be resorting to Marshalls and the like or the Hoodman Pro diopter attachment that can now be used on the EX1/R which gives close to the same functionality of as the EX3 diopter snoot.

My solution for the tripod mounting issue will be to throw weight off the back of the camera. Little consolation though if someone tosses you a 4 kilo lens to put on the front which will require another +2 kilos of rails and risers to keep the package stable, assuming you can physically brace the lens.

There are two press junkets scheduled for 5:30 pm and 7:30 pm west coast (USA) time today. We should have more information on the camera and the prime lenses Sony is developing for the unit.

I was really really hoping they'd ditch the pretty much useless little VF hanging off the back, not only will no one really use it for the caliber of this kind of camera, but its an ugly eye sore, its really making the camera look cheap and un-professional.

Also to detach the right side handle like the AF100 would have been lovely too, but as stated above I think we missed out on voicing those changes, they seem to be already done with design considering all their ads are already running with photos of it with a big 65mm Master Prime on the front of it.

Damn sony why did you have to put that little ugly thing hanging off. To be totally honest, I would most likely figure out a way to detach it. I would never use it. Voiding the warranty I suppose but damn I'd most likely break it off by accident anyway, it sticks so far back. Wish this was made with a release or something to detach it.

Next camera you guys put out, just stick with the brick and shoulder shooters mode, its what us DP's really want anyway. Look at ARRI Alexa, that in form factor is perfect.

Glad I'm not the only one!

I haven't used the Alexa for work yet but have handled one and loved the ergonomics. It seems stupid that Sony haven't thought the ergonomics through properly as a good design doesn't add to production cost and they could have even saved some cash by ditching the stupid rear VF.

How are Sony expecting this camera to be used for handheld with heavy PL glass on the front? As a palmcorder? With no VF socket, your only option is using an external monitor and bolt on shoulder mounts, which is pretty awkward.

I haven't seen a pic of the bottom plate, but the top has numerous screw mounts, so you'd hope the bottom was the same.

I fully agree on the VF. Occasionally it may be useful, but mostly like a dew claw that get caught on everything and you'd want to smash off with a hammer.

Just make it removable, and please add a port for a real VF.

I think what they are trying to do is lure in some of the people who are used to this kind of design. Though it just makes us pros shy away from it. Stupid move. Justifying a 16k price for something that looks like its worth 4k or less is not a good way to get costomers.

There is such a thing as sex appeal for cameras and its always the same, they look like the F35, or the Alexa.

You are right it wouldn't have cost them a red cent to design this thing in a better form factor. The PL mout with a zoom handycam rocker is just ridiculous in design and completely useless for people who will actually USE the PL mount. You could have even saved money not having to put the VF on there and put that towards a second HDMI port just for viewfinders and such.

Oh well, sometimes I really think these companies have the weirdest people designing for them, they are clearly NOT cinematographers who'd use this stuff. Its like they make it look ugly on purpose.

And that ugly little mic hanging off the front as well... eek. And why the heck did they put the XLR's right next to the lens mount? thats going to get in the way of any mounting gear with all the XLR cables getting in the way and sticking out.

A real miss for design, but the footage is so amazing I'm stuck with having to buy it haha.

This is the best photo I've seen of it yet though, with none of that crap hanging off of it, thats as close as you can get it look to something professional.

Yup the images are gorgeous.

Well, hopefully there is another follow up version - like the EX3 to the EX1. I will be waiting for that.

I think that we all need to put pressure on our Sony contacts directly to address these issues.

I want a proper viewfinder, and I want it to be removable.

Looking at that silly viewfinder at the back, I wonder how it feels to have a face full of BNC cables and an XLR cable. Useless. Does Sony even test their cameras with working DP's?

Ben Ruffell (http://www.ruff.co.nz/Blog/Blog.php)

You're spot on there Mike, they also need to sort out the flip out screen so that you can hand hold the thing with a shoulder rig. My EX1 sock loupe is going to get a new lease of life if I start using this thing regularly

I just saw a video which momentarily showed the base. It appears to have 3 * 1/4" threads, two inline, one off set.

On the Sony Professional Facebook discussion Sony wrote:

"Mount at the bottom of camcorder is the standard screw-thread type seen on EX1R.
There are no optional viewfinders available."

Let's hope they were wrong. 3 x 1/4" threads would at least be better than 1 but not nearly as good as having 3/8" as well.

Shame to put all that effort into what is shaping up to be a technically great camera, only to blow it on the most simple aspects. VF wise, they should have just made a detachable finder which mounted to the camera via a magic arm and 3/8" screw threads on the top and sides. Simple, cheap, adaptable, effective.

If no one else chimes in sooner I'll have access to an F3 on Monday and I'll post a pic of the base. I do know that the entire base is flat so we don't have to deal with silly curves. All the F3's I've played with so far have had tripod plates on the bottom. They have always felt solid and secure on the tripods.

Don't forget that the Sony PL lens set is very light. They have been purposely deigned to be ultra light weight for handheld use. The camera with any of the Sony PL's is not that much different to an EX3 to hand hold. Yes it is front heavy, but not so much so that you can't shoot "handycam" style.

I would agree that a shoulder mount and loupe will work well with the F3. The rear VF looks to be the same as the one on the EX1R, which is at least a big improvement over the original EX1.

Thanks Alister. I'm hoping it will look a little like the bottom of my VCT-14. :)

Mike, in case you haven't discovered these VCT-14/U14 baseplate adapters, you should have a look.

One from True Lens Service in your neck of the woods (4th item down):
True Lens Services (http://www.truelens.co.uk/accessories.html)

And fairly recent entrant from GENUS which I got a couple of months ago:
Genus GAP Adapter Plate GL GAP B&H Photo Video
Genus Adaptor Plates - Genus Video and DSLR products (http://www.genustech.tv/adaptor-plates/genus-adaptor-plates.html)

And if you haven't discovered the ARRI QR-HD1, you have to look at this. Could save a Steadicam Op from moving to a bigger rig with the weight savings:

ARRI Group: Quick-Release Baseplate QR-HD1 for Digital Cameras (http://www.arri.de/camera/professional_camera_accessories/support_systems/quick_release_baseplate_qr_hd1_for_digital_cameras.html)

Download the catalogue and go to page 16 for a much better photo. Should be noted the baseplate goes up and down, independently on the rails bit an of course the unit can move back and forth about 5" with the throw of a lever allowing you to move the CG waaaaay back, if you want. It weighs well under 2 pounds but when you factor in baseplates, a riser or two and the functionality, you get the picture.

I've been thinking about this. It's going to be heavier than an EX3, more front heavy, and it has that useless EVF so you would have to be holding it away from your body to even look into it.

Spec wise they have knocked it out of the park. Probably the last camera some of us would ever need until 4k displays for the home are common. But form wise, both this and the NXcam are so clearly doomed to be left on a tripod (or some giant custom shoulder rig) because holding one will be a nightmare.

The EX3 is so good in this regard. Everything is just about perfect for handheld, yet not as bulky as a true shoulder cam. It's truly a shame that one of these cams didn't follow that form factor. Maybe the F5? If it happens I'm sure it would cost even more than the F3!

EX3 perfect for handheld?? I think you're giving the EX3 too much credit. I've used one enough to know a true shoulder mount form is the best.
The EX3 does have the advantage of lesser weight compared to most shoulder mount cams, but I'd hardly consider the EX3 "perfect." It's still front heavy and the semi-shoulder mount is a far cry from a true shoulder mount cam. The majority of the EX3's weight still rests on your right arm, not your shoulder. That can quickly lead to fatigue. Try a JVC HM700 or HD200 for a really well-balanced hand-held camera.

I'm not saying the EX3 is a bad camera for hand held shooting, and its excellent EVF helps, but in my opinion there are better cams out there for off-the-tripod shooting.
I understand how a form factor similar to the EX3 might be desirable, though. I guess a semi-shoulder mount is better than no shoulder mount at all. But, let's not write off the F3's hand held comfort just yet until we've tried it.

For me more weight is better, even if it isn't "shoulder mount". Heck the RED One isn't shoulder mount at all, you have to treat it just the same. Buy add on mounts to get it done right.

I would love for an Sony PMW F5 with S35 sensor and SHOULDER mount form like an ENG or Alexa form. I'm kind of tired of these pro-sumer looking things. Build the professional one heavy and like the Alexa in terms of form.

Lets face it, after seeing the real price of it, they are sure to put out a new camera in the 30k USD range that is much more pro. I just hope they listen to the actual pro users and not this flood of "internet DPs".

Shoulder mount is key even if you dont use up all the space inside... look at all these cheap shoulder mount cameras they already make, its literally so you can use it for that reason, the cameras are hollow for the most part, but they sit on the shoulder.

Oh a true shoulder mount is easily the most stable, but it's huge. EX1s and above are really too big for handheld if you ask me. I like the EX3 because it's stable, gives me 4 points of contact if you count my cheek, but I can throw it into my backpack too.

I would love for an Sony PMW F5 with S35 sensor and SHOULDER mount form like an ENG or Alexa form. I'm kind of tired of these pro-sumer looking things. Build the professional one heavy and like the Alexa in terms of form.

But Sony already has such a camera: the SRW 9000PL. Of course, it's a wee bit more costly than the F3.

But Sony already has such a camera: the SRW 9000PL. Of course, it's a wee bit more costly than the F3.


Hmmm this is true... But that is a tape based on-board recording format, not solid state. The SRW 9000PL is also around $115,000 street price. So there would be a huge gap between the 13k F3 and a 115k 9000pl.

Any good business person should know that if you have a gap that you cannot fill in your pricing structure you're allowing costumers to then go to another manufacture to fill that gap for them.

They have a huge chance to compete with RED and Alexa by putting out a product in the 30k range. The options on the 9000PL can be limited to say more of an F3 on steroids. As long as it offered better options from the F3 and a solid state capability in camera at a 10 bit 4:2:2 you'd have a great camera but still not having the options of the 9000PL or F35 for obvious reasons.

You must remember that Alexa at $55,000 is an amazing price point per camera vs. capability. Alexa is almost fully upgradable, they are build to grow, unlike the 9000PL or F35 which are pretty much where they will always be.

Sony has such a strong pull all they need to do is put out a good product at that price range, and they will do very well. Specially for the companies that were swayed by RED's 4k sensors and ease of solid state data capabilities.

If there is a hole (which there is) I'm sure sony could fill it with a very nice camera in that range. even if they just put out an F5 with the F3 sensor but with shoulder mount and internal 4:2:2 recording and nice mountable viewfinder, and maybe some enhancements for gamma, and normal AB battery mount... that would be worth it for an extra 8 grand to me. Just something more professional than a handycam.

That wouldn't cost them much to make, considering all the components of the F3 would be used just rearranged differently for bigger body. Come to think of it, a bigger body allows faster clocking speeds on the sensor meaning faster fps. They could really put out a killer camera for not much more than it costs them to build the F3 but sell it for 2x the price.

F5 would be:

the F3 sensor and processing
shoulder mounted or at least more professional body build than handycam format
50mbit 4:2:2 internal recording
AB battery mount
More internal options for gamma and dynamic range stretching
same 4:4:4 capabilities but without having to pay for upgrade
proper EVF thats removable
Maybe faster fps options

Think about it, ALL of that wont cost much more to implement. The hard part was already done, the sensor and processing. Everything else is just a matter of software, and materials for the different body size. Heck it doesn't even have to come standard with the EVF, just develop a nice one for people to add on if they'd like for extra $.

I believe sony should hire me to design, you all would never be disappointed haha

Sony build the camera mainly as a B camera , so it had to be small and light. In that respect a shoulder mount design was out of question. The versatility of a small camera is that if someone wants shoulder mount, he can always attach one. It would have been nice if Sony came up with a dedicated shoulder mount for F3 with an uncompressed (or HDCAM SR) recorder built in. That will be awesome.

More likely 3rd party manufacturers will, same as they've done for other cameras including the EX3. The rear V/F does limit things balance wise, but perhaps one of the DSLR accessory V/Fs may be a possibility.

Sony build the camera mainly as a B camera , so it had to be small and light. In that respect a shoulder mount design was out of question. The versatility of a small camera is that if someone wants shoulder mount, he can always attach one. It would have been nice if Sony came up with a dedicated shoulder mount for F3 with an uncompressed (or HDCAM SR) recorder built in. That will be awesome.

Once you equip a F3 with a proper rig, better monitoring device, larger batteries, wireless mic, etc... it will end up being quite bigger and clunkier than a PMW-350 or PMW-500. There is indeed a huge potential in sales for a well balanced and integrated one-piece shoulder style S35 camera. The PMW-500 body and form factor is close to perfect to house the guts of a S35 camera. The doco and news mag market would embrace this in a pinch.

Thierry.

I'm not sure the market for S35 is that large in the doc and news markets. 2/3" & 1/2" has big advantages in zoom lens size etc., S35 would be more boutique in it's use. For many docs the Canon XF 300 & 305 fulfils the bill that the Z1 & the old PD150 met in the broadcast SD world.

Kind of agree and at the same time don't quite agree with the idea that a large shoulder cam style is best. I certainly think that Sony should entertain the idea of something like the JVC 700 shoulder mounted camera size and form factor ... at the same time, I consider the small frame to be very convenient as carry on ... travel wise small form factor travels well.

Once you equip a F3 with a proper rig, better monitoring device, larger batteries, wireless mic, etc... it will end up being quite bigger and clunkier than a PMW-350 or PMW-500. There is indeed a huge potential in sales for a well balanced and integrated one-piece shoulder style S35 camera. The PMW-500 body and form factor is close to perfect to house the guts of a S35 camera. The doco and news mag market would embrace this in a pinch.

Thierry.


This is really where my point is at. Everyone says well you can just add on... by the time you're done adding on everything I listed, you end up with again these ugly big beast cameras with parts hanging off left and right. Its just not the way to use a proper camera. It shouldn't be harder to use these cameras than an Arri SR16. That is such a perfect little design. These contraptions you say you want to add on, yet you want it to be small... kinda defeats the purpose, and takes away valuable time when you have to attach everything again every time you need to use it.

There are smaller ways to build things, like the mentioned JVC way. Just please dont add things onto the back, that was just ridiculous, those cameras ended up being bazookas and quite a problem to use.

You can have a small shoulder mount camera, no one said it had to be full ENG size. They have cameras out like AG-HMC80. They are small but shoulder mount. As long as they were built with metal instead of cheap plastic like those, you'd have a very compact yet shoulder mount professional CINEMA camera. Maybe lose the ugly viewfinder and mic though haha.

Indeed, the JVC HDV series of cameras are the nicest small cameras for hand holding and they're not that large. There are other small HD cameras which have a similar form factor eg Ikonoskop

Ikonoskop A-cam dII - Part 1 : Introduction on Vimeo

However, this a much lighter camera than the F3.

Seeing as how no one has really gotten their head around this...

No real problem with the single or double 1/4" screws that go into the plate on the EX1/3. The problem is how the plate is held onto the rest of the camera. All that holds that plate to the camera chassis is 4x 2mm screws and it is these that can tear out of the pressed metal chassis.

No doubt there'll be people from here making a plate to address this problem. The only problem we've struck with using any of those plates with the EX1/3 is they alter the distance between the centreline of the lens and the bottom of the camera. As a result getting matte boxes to fit becomes a bit of an issue.

For my money this is a pretty serious issue. The EVF can be removed with a Dremel tool if it really bugs us. There's kind of ways to add more bolt holes on the top of the camera and once you have rods from the front and rear of the camera it's pretty easy to mount stuff anywhere. The camera plate problem is impossible to fix elegantly if at all.

You do have several 1/4" mounting holes on the top of the camera body and an additional one towards the rear of the base of the camera but off-set from center. I agree that this is not the best of designs, but most people are going to be using rails etc. So it would make sense to add an integrated base plate with rail support that makes use of both the standard tripod mount holes plus the additional offset on at the rear.

With many PL mount lenses the bottom of the lens will end up below the base of the camera, so a little extra height won't hurt. In Oslo the camera had a Zacuto riser and rail system on the F3 to support the Cooke PL prime and it was very stable.

Is it true that there is no "color peaking" for the viewfinder like the Ex-1 has. That would be a major loss as I rely on it at my age.

Also is the IR problem solved?

Same gammas choices and Painting choices as the EX-1?

Did they at least give us 2 presets for daylight and 3200?

I'm very excited about this camera.

I know this is for what we want to have changed but.... Anyone know if they have a 2.35:1 cropping markers? These are super important and is so easy to implement it would be a REAL let down if they didn't have that option

Yes it does have 2.35 crop markers. I tested it for this just the other day.

Andy

Seeing as how no one has really gotten their head around this...

No real problem with the single or double 1/4" screws that go into the plate on the EX1/3. The problem is how the plate is held onto the rest of the camera. All that holds that plate to the camera chassis is 4x 2mm screws and it is these that can tear out of the pressed metal chassis.

The plate on the F3 is similar to the double 1/4" plate on the EX1R. A big difference though it that is attached directly the the metal frame of the camera, Sony addressed this need specifically because of problems in the past. It is still attached with small screws, but the frame is stronger at that position now. They also have an additional 1/4" thread on the bottom -towered the back of the camera - which could be used for additional security. It is oddly placed, but I can see some custom riser popping up in the future.

The F3 has colour peaking, just like the EX1/EX3.

Andy: will we meet tomorrow when I bring over the 3D rig?

Thanks Alister That's reassuring. Someone else on DVInfo.net said no color peaking or expanded focus button.
I'm glad to see it also has internal ND filters - another big DSLR hassle solved.

Is there a waveform or vectorscope available in the camera like there is the Panasonics these days?

Well I just got on the waiting list with my dealer - sounds like an absolutely killer product.

From the Sydney launch last night.

Different LUTs can be applied to the SDI output compared to what the camera records?
The camera has the standard Sony "700" connector.
There's a connector to fully sync two F3s for shooting 3D.

From the chat after the screening of Compulsion: The EVF is very usefull, using it frees up the monitor for the director to look at. Low power consumption means you can go for hours without changing batteries. It is curious how the Director and DP who come from a film / high end digital background find what we've taken for granted as something quite remarkable in a camera. Pretty well everything else they were excited about has either been mentioned here or is just taken for granted by most of us.

The only thing that caught me out watching Compulsion on the big screen was it looked too soft. Turns out almost every shot was overcranked so the whole thing was shot in 720p. At least no one can accuse Sony of staging that shoot :)

This video was posted in the other thread but I have something to say.

Watching this, man just look at that poor guy struggle to find some way to hold it. This thing weighs more than an EX3, it will have huge PL glass hanging off the front. WHY did Sony give this the same form factor as a handy cam?

Did they do this on purpose? Possibly so when they release one with a proper form factor people who love the images from the F3 will jump on the F5? I wish they would at least explain what they had in mind when they designed it. Sorry, just thinking out loud.

Same thing with the 50mbps 4:2:2. just odd to leave it out. I just get the horrible feeling they know exactly what they are doing ha ha. I'll take two. :)

Sony F-3 lens trials at Panavision on Vimeo

Yes and the camera in the video is fitted with a very heavy follow focus, steel rails and a large Arri type 19mm base plate and riser. Of course it's awkward to hold.

Do remember that stripped down and with the lightweight Sony PL lenses it is not that much heavier than an EX3. I'm not saying that it's ideal, but what form factor would have been? I regard it as a mini F35, which is also neither truly hand held nor shoulder mount. I don't think it's any worse than the Panasonic AF100 and it's got to be easier to use than a DSLR. Shoulder mount would be too bulky for many people, especially if they are adding external recorders and other accessories.
Could it be smaller? Perhaps, but then I'm sure there would be complaints of it being too small and fiddly for serious productions.

My biggest gripe is with the tripod mount, which could very easily of been much better.

I'm not saying that it's ideal, but what form factor would have been?

I think JVC currently has the most ergonomic designs with the small shoulder mount HD100/200 and HM700 lines. Due to the varying weight of PL glass, the battery mount should be on rods at the back which can slide in and out, just like how we adjust for balance on a Steadicam. It can then be compact when needed but also balance on the shoulder. This would add to the cost but no more so than all the add-ons which will be required to make the camera work off a tripod.

Agreed on the tripod mount. Sony told me that because of the plastic construction, they didn't want to over-spec the tripod mount as it would be stronger than the camera body itself. IMO it is best to design both to be strong enough to not break at all!

The on shoulder position that they played with in the video seemed the most natural for hand held with these lenses. Having additional on board accesories/recordors will make this even more appropriate. I expect some one will supply something that will allow for this.

15mm rods are rather better for hand held, but I suspect they were just testing rigs for a short wide zoom

But a shoulder mount camera is difficult to use any way other than shoulder mounted or tripod mounted because of the length.

What I really don't understand about the base is why the 1/4" thread at the rear is off center. It would be so much more useful if it was inline with the others.

What the design does do is leave the door wide open for 3rd party adapters.

The camera doesn't really need to be longer, just a viewing system at the front so that the face is approx level with the front of the camera. The Aaton 16mm camera's V/F more or less gives this, as does the JVC GY HD100 or 200.

The JVC cameras can be used in loads of hand held positions using the side LCD rather than the V/F.

Yes and the camera in the video is fitted with a very heavy follow focus, steel rails and a large Arri type 19mm base plate and riser. Of course it's awkward to hold.

Do remember that stripped down and with the lightweight Sony PL lenses it is not that much heavier than an EX3. I'm not saying that it's ideal, but what form factor would have been? I regard it as a mini F35, which is also neither truly hand held nor shoulder mount. I don't think it's any worse than the Panasonic AF100 and it's got to be easier to use than a DSLR. Shoulder mount would be too bulky for many people, especially if they are adding external recorders and other accessories.
Could it be smaller? Perhaps, but then I'm sure there would be complaints of it being too small and fiddly for serious productions.

My biggest gripe is with the tripod mount, which could very easily of been much better.

Actually, the guts of the F3 in a PMW-500 body would make a perfect and well balanced shoulder Super 35 camera. With it's dual channel wireless slot, V-mount battery and nice side mounted viewfinder options, it would make for a far less bulky camera than a fully rigged F3.

Thierry

Obviously there will be a need for either a Sony or third party standard viewfinder--the flip-out screen is not an ideal setup for serious production work. Being able to put your eye up to a finder in daylight is much preferred to the washed-out image from a flip-out.

True enough about the F35 not being ideal for handheld either--without the deck on the back it's punishingly front-heavy. It took me hours of prep to configure this beast:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/hd-uhd-2k-digital-cinema/139943-sony-f35-first-experience.html

Hello,
I've been following the various posts regarding the soon to be available F3 and one question lingers in my mind, relating specifically to the attached VF. Therefore, for those of you who have had an up-close and personal encounter with the F3, is the attached VF adequate for accurate focus? I'd hate to disturb what already appears to be an awkward, handhold-able device with the added weight and bulk of an onboard monitor (i.e. Marshall).
Thank you in advance.

Ron,

The F3 viewfinder is adequate to check focus especially if you are using the peaking function. It is no that good for checking color and for this, the built-in LCD is very good. My understanding is that the F3 viewfinder is identical to the EX1R (not EX1...) and during the bit of hands on I have had with the F3, the viewfinder felts indeed like the EX1R's.

Thierry.

But a shoulder mount camera is difficult to use any way other than shoulder mounted or tripod mounted because of the length.



With the lenses that will be used with this, even the EX3 form factor wouldn't be useful. Full shoulder is the only way to use the F3 hand held in any reasonable way. But as you pointed out it would make using it for anything else more difficult. Plus it would have probably made it even more expensive.

I guess that is why Sony just decided to make it like the baddest Handycam ever made. Makes it small enough to fit in tight places or carry around easily, and after you rig it all up you can make your own shoulder mount.

I do still wish they had made that rear Viewfinder removable! That way I could have chucked it in a box (without voiding my warranty) and forgotten it was ever there to begin with.

[QUOTE=Erik Phairas;1602907 Full shoulder is the only way to use the F3 hand held in any reasonable way. [/QUOTE]
I don't agree, I found it very easy to hold using the top handle for low shots and handycam style for many other shots. If you use the Sony lightweight PL's or a DSLR lens the weight is not a problem.

The F3 viewfinder is adequate to check focus especially if you are using the peaking function.

It isn't great though, nowhere near as good as the EX3 IMO. I would rather Sony had ditched it and focused on something higher end in a better position, even if it was an paid for option.

But a shoulder mount camera is difficult to use any way other than shoulder mounted or tripod mounted because of the length.

I've never really found shoulder mount designs to be awkward when shooting from the hip or holding the top handle. It is very rare that I shoot like that anyway. I certainly think a shoulder mount design is better for 95% of shooting and hate having to make any adaptations between tripod and handheld. The only time I prefer handycams is for discrete shooting where you are trying to look amateur.

With all the amazing advances in recent years, ergonomics seem to have been forgotten. The Aaton LTR/XTR S16 cameras hardly ever need anything bolted to them, they just work properly as designed. The latest handycams seem to have outgrown the limits of their PD150 ancestors and the manufactures haven't noticed or bothered to go back to the drawing board.