There is an HDV door that JVC left wide open for Canon to come in and exceed them with: 1080/24p. If they implement 1080/60i HDV, and then also put 24P in (using the same technique as putting 24P within a DV 60i stream) then the Canon would have two huge selling points against the JVC: 1080/24p instead of 720/24p, and 1080/60i (something the HD100 doesn't have an answer for).

As for lenses, seeing as they will need new lenses anyway (to support HD resolution) this is Canon's chance to ditch the proprietary lens mount and instead go with a standard mount. Then the HD100 and the Canon could actually interchange lenses, too!

I guess it remains to be seen what Canon will actually do; I'm just pointing out a couple of things they could do which would give them selling points against the other HDV product on the market.

Haha that was a fun read.
sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I was at IBC
you want more pictures? here they are:

http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=27

Yeah Barry, as I said, if they offer more than the HD100, they have huges chances to beat it. 1080 24p would be great. Specially if the CCDs were actually 1920x1080. But that would be really the only thing they could do to outdo JVC. Because the JVC will most likely still be more professional oriented.
I somehat doubt Canon would let go on their XL mount though.
But deep down in my heart, I'm 90% sure this will basically be a XL2 in HDV, with maybe 720 24p/30p and nothing else. But I hope I'm wrong.

Well, if you believe camcorderinfo.com's report, prepare for a *huge* disappointment. I just saw that they've revised their front-page story. They claim that they have an exclusive report, from a "source close to Canon", who says that the camera will be 1080i-only. They claim that they specifically asked about 24P, and the Canon source said "no." They claim he said it would have a 24p-like feature (which sounds an awful lot like CineFrame 24) but that it would *not* have 24P. And it wouldn't have 720p either; it'd be 1080i-only.

And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000.

I frankly don't believe it. Canon knows full well how to make 24P within an interlaced data stream (480/24p carried within a DV 60i data stream, as implemented on the XL2) and they know very well how much that feature is desired. I can't comprehend how they would produce this camera and leave out that feature. So I refuse to believe it, until I see Canon's official press release.

And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000...

$12,000? Who in their right minds would buy a HDV 1080i camera for this price with a camera like the HVX200 selling for under 10k with 2 P2 cards?
It sounds like bogus from camcorderinfo. But even if it cost the same as the XL2 and is 1080i only, it will flop.
Honestly, even if it would do 1080 24p, it would still be the question of the build quality, LCD screen, stock full manual lens, professional features and professional menu where the HD100 would have the edge. So, I really don't see how this camera could be a full threat to the HD100. Unless Canon totally outdo themselves and release a camera with real professional menus on the level of the HD100, professional build quality, offer a manual lens package for the same price as the OIS package, develops better HD glass than the stock 16x fuji, have it shooting 1080 24p and 720p with all frame rates the HD100 does. Then, it would be a huge hit. But the chances for this are very slim. But then again, you never know. They seem to be desperate for releasing a new camera only a short year after the XL2 came out. So, they might really have something worthy up their sleeves. I just feel sorry for those who just bought a XL2. I almost bought one last month. You, Charles and Nate saved me when you released that HD100+Mini35 test. That completely changed my view on HDV which was bad based on the Z1/FX1. Then I decided to check the HD100 and now that's what I'm buying, unless the new Canon does all I said above. But I doubt it. Specially if this camera is a repacked Z1 with interchangeable lens.
Anyway, thanks for saving me guys !

<snip> but that it would *not* have 24P. And it wouldn't have 720p either; it'd be 1080i-only.

And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000.

I frankly don't believe it. Canon knows full well how to make 24P within an interlaced data stream (480/24p carried within a DV 60i data stream, as implemented on the XL2) and they know very well how much that feature is desired. I can't comprehend how they would produce this camera and leave out that feature. So I refuse to believe it, until I see Canon's official press release.

I just read that too and have serious doubts about some of those specs. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that dropping a 10-12K HDV 1080i camcorder into the current market would make a thud louder than a refurbished circuit city DIVX player. Basically we'd be looking at a Z1 with a 5-7K premium for interchangeable lenses. Granted, I'm at the bottom of the food chain with my Optura 30 so I can't speak for the pros, but I'm thinking "nope".

Even if they do 24P in the 1080i stream (which I believe they will), that still makes this a pricey proposition. I think even at $8,000 with 1080 24P this thing wouldn't be competitive. I mean, that's the price of the HVX200 with the newly anounced Firestore. Oh sure, the Canon can change lenses, but that blows the budget WAY up. And even then, you're still left with what is arguably a video format that really doesn't compare too favoribly with Panasonic's.

I'm just not sure who this is targeted at. If it MSRPs at 7K with 1080 24P it might steal some thunder from JVC, certainly. But no 24P and/or a 10K+ price and I just have to wonder. Hmm.. maybe Canon is really going out of their way to keep the XL2 owners happy? If that's the case then Canon is about to learn an important lesson: sometimes you have to cut your losses.

Anyway, can't wait to see the final specs and prices! Maybe they'll still pull a fast one, but at this point I'm thinking the HVX is the big news in HD this year and its not looking like anyone is going to steal Panasonic's thunder.

Philip Williams
www.philipwilliams.com (yeah, site's down)

Why all the posts about feeling sorry for XL2 users about this new camera coming out so soon after the release of the XL2?
There's always something bigger and better around the corner. If the new camera is offering something I really want and can use then I'll simply cut my losses and sell the XL2 and just deal with it.
If its not that much of an improvement, I won't care and keep the XL2.
It called life, you deal with it.

I love my XL2 and I loved my XL1, but I havve to say being a Canon customer sucks from my perspective. Not only am I a Canon owner but I also sell cameras for a living right now. I put alot of money into my XL2 package as a rental " Digital Cinema Package " with alot of accessories in cluding Cinetech Follow focus and Petroff mattebox, wireless mics, the whole 9 yards...

I got a total of 4 months of rentals out of it before the FX1 and Z1U completely stole its thunder out here in the LA market. Every little TV station and start up production has gone with a Z1U. And they for the most part have regretted the decision, from what I hear from shooter here in LA. I even had to use one for a DVD featurette coming out on the Crash Special Edition DVD ( yes I know, wtf a special edition for Crash ? ). And I thought it was a thrown together concept camera to combat the XL2 because Canon went with their own tape transports on the XL2, thus stiffing Sony.

All I can say to Canon being an owner and seller of thier product is.., There better be a damn upgrade path for a camera thats only been out one year. Panasonic is straightforward with thier customers, they let them know what was going to happen so that thier customer could prepare for the transition. Now everyone has their cards on the table and Canon is still being tightlipped, its rediculous and frankly disloyal to the customers who keep wait and pay for their catch up game. The XL2 Late is absolutely right and it has tarnished the image of Canon in my eyes. I hope that keeping my XL2 until the offical Canon HDV annoucement will not be a bad decision. If it turns out that it is, I will turn my back on Canon and boycott any sales coming through my door and switch them over to Panasonic, which wont be hard.

Please Canon as a loyal a devout customer, don't screw the people who wated soooooo long for the XL2 and are now nervous about what future lies with thier camera. If it will even be worth it, anyone tried to sell SD gear lately ? not an easy thing these days.


Just my 2 but I know some of your feel what I have to say.

James Rhodes signing off

I feel you James. I'm so glad I didn't buy a XL2 last month. I would be really mad right now. I almost got one. I went to the store, tested it and all. I was saved by the gong. I'm glad I waited.

Somebody wanted full undoctored images of the Canon, complete with the info on how it was taken, to prove it wasn't photoshoped (how's that for the verbification of nouns).

I take no pride in the quality of these snaps, but its what somebody asked for. BTW, the other image is of a Century Optics 180 degree wide angle adaptor for the Z1 (there's a 120 as well).

http://www.gpjco.tv/ibc

FWIW, there was some real HDX200 footage on the Apple stand (demonistrating P2 integration with FCP). It was from a prototype and therefore was no reflection on the final image quality (thankfully).

The Canon here is obviously a fake. The buttons match up identically with the XL2 that was 3 feet from this box. I guess that Canon had to do SOMETHING what with attending the show that's basically the European NAB, as to not announce anything here, then do it at the Canon event in NY would seem a bit of a snub to the European markets. :-)

IMHO...

Thanks to new members Lars and Matt for providing the higher rez pictures, and to "Major Player" Mikko also for the early confirmation that this mockup was actually at IBC. And Lars, my apologies if I offended you with my initial skepticism...everyone at DVinfo works hard to keep things factual and on-topic and at first this really just seemed, well, not for real. But it appears now that you actually were among the first, if not the very first, on the internet to report the IBC XL HDV mockup, so that deserves big congratulations. Glad you made your way here to DVinfo and look forward to many lively discussions with you.

Since the mockup actually exists, many of us are now really wondering if perhaps it is Canon's Public Relations department that is pulling the trick. Considering that Canon seems to be positioning itself to enter the pro video market (recently realigned their web site: CanonUSA Camcorders (http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=102)), I certainly agree with others that a plain interlaced HDV XL without other substantial features would be a flop, and Canon cannot possibly fail to know that. Add to that the fact that Canon is apparently saying NOTHING at IBC, and it starts to smell like they're deliberately trying to generate "buzz"...hyped speculation. And that's exactly what we all are doing. So if that's their plan, it's working! Canon Expo has seemed like the logical place for an announcement, and this makes it seem nearly a certainty. No idea if it'll actually look like the mockup, or if that is just a total trick.

And to those slamming Canon in advance for announcing an HD XL, I have to respectfully disagree. You bought the best miniDV camera, and your XL2 will still be the best miniDV camera around. It won't depreciate to zero the day an HD camera is announced. In fact, I think used XL2's will be sought after by those who are sticking with SD for another year or two or three. So if you're not enjoying it or making money with it, sell it. But if you want to shoot HD, it is just reality that you're going to have to pay the premium for that. I'd anticipate that the new WunderKam is going to cost a good bit more than an XL2 does...probably more along the lines of a tricked out HVX200. There's nothing wrong with Canon competing in a new market space; in fact, a lot of us can hardly wait. I knew when I bought my XL2 that I'd be going to HD within a year or so, but I bought it anyway -- same as everyone else who bought one.

I'll bet that in just a few days we will be adding solid facts on a new WunderKam to this thread. If, in the unlikely event, that Canon has been totally asleep at the wheel the last couple of years, and the company announces a ho-hum HDV camera at too high a price point, then I'll be disappointed. Today is too soon to be disappointed.

I don't know if this has been said before, but would It not be wise if Canon offered some kind of upgrade to XL2 customers, say for example that XL2 customers hand in their cameras and Canon just replace the internal electronics(I suppose then you would still have the problem of the SD lens, perhaps some kind of "basic" HD lens at discounted rates for XL2 owners?)

Anhar Hussain Miah

I gotta chime in here and say that these camcorder.info specs are either:

A. Totally bogus.

B. Demonstrate that the people at Canon have gone totally mad.

I'm betting on A.

Anhar,
Yeah, I'd always hoped I could just swap out the camera body and continue to use my existing lenses. But a number of people who seem pretty knowledgeable about optics have indicated that the lenses now available just won't have the resolving power to do HD justice. So it may be that both camera and lenses will need to be new in order to really do HD right.

Glenn,
I vote "A" also.

Let's hope the wait for some real info is only a couple more days!

I vote for "A".

i can't be positive but I read once that camcorder.info is wrong 7 out of 10 times.

Plus, If I wanted to think as a business man. What better way to take the wind out of another companies sails (or sells), than to plant false information.

What I'm seeing on the net. There is as much interest in the Canon as the new Panny.

If I wanted to think as a business man

If you really want to think like a business man then just wait a few more days and see what Canon really announces.... ;-)

Okay, I've been looking at the pics and reading the wild rumors... so I'll officially stick my neck out at this point. I think the "BlackCam" is a decoy. And I don't think whatever they announce will be a simple HDV model.

The clock is ticking.


And speaking as one who bought an Xl2 at a premium price in November last year. If the new cam is simply HDV... then I think my money was well spent, as I intend to skip over HDV for the next "HD prosumer" format. IF the cam is HD in some fashion, then I'll weigh in on trading in my Xl2 in a year. It's already paid for itself.

I don't know if this has been said before, but would It not be wise if Canon offered some kind of upgrade to XL2 customers, say for example that XL2 customers hand in their cameras and Canon just replace the internal electronics(I suppose then you would still have the problem of the SD lens, perhaps some kind of "basic" HD lens at discounted rates for XL2 owners?)

Anhar Hussain Miah

Sorry, but that's not going to happen. It's more complicated than that. They can't just swap electronics like that.

I still think that is a dummy camera. I am not a fanboy for any manufacturer so the one with the best product/price/features gets my business. I currenly own an XL2 and an DVX100a, I use both daily. Just do the math and the info doesnt add up... right now an XL2 has a street price of around $3600. Would you pay THREE TIMES THAT just to ONLY be able to shoot in 1080i? Nobody would. I would rather shoot in 24P SD and have it blown up. For it to be $10-$12k it would have to be a 2/3" CCD camera and I dont think you can fit all that in the XL2 body.

Also, do you think Canon would release a camera that is DOUBLE the price of its HIGHEST priced competitor in the 1/3" CCD class that lacked features?

The only other possible explanation is that there will be some sort of native HD and maybe 60 minutes of flash media is IN the camera or included. That wouldnt make sense to me either.

Whatever the case, I highly doubt the info out is correct and if it is, Canon may not make their R&D back...



ash =o)

I saw the camera at IBC. It is a mock up model, made out of wood. The sales people were told to say absolutly nothing about the camera. He did tell me that they were not going to ax the xl2 straight away. He would not tell me anything about when the camera would be ready. My feeling is there is no camera yet but because everybody is doing HD they had to come with something to the IBC. They usually do not show any camera at ibc. Its the canon lenses they show here. Now they had two camera's (xl2) and the mock up.I have some photo's I will load up later

And speaking as one who bought an Xl2 at a premium price in November last year. If the new cam is simply HDV... then I think my money was well spent, as I intend to skip over HDV for the next "HD prosumer" format.
I'm with you up to this point, Richard.

Frankly, the jump to $10-$12K is too much, because it won't stop there. You're looking at another $15K to upgrade your post facility to HD. I'm not going broke, but I don't have another $25K laying around, either.

For me, my business is still client driven. So far, no one has asked that their project be produced in HD.

I got sucked into an upgrade this past Spring on a video product, and it wasn't a smart move because the product wasn't ready for prime-time. Luckily, I got my money back. So no more consumer frenzy spending for me.

Beware of lemmings!

Jay

For it to be $10-$12k it would have to be a 2/3" CCD camera and I dont think you can fit all that in the XL2 body.

It would be nice though ;-)

I am very curious about Canon's move, they have hard competition with JVC already offering interchangible lens system and Panasonic with the specs of the HVX.
I hope they can offer something nice, though.

i have two project deadlines this month. i better use my HVX200 to get the job done. oh right, i don't own one yet because it's still just a twinkle in panasonic's eye. when i finish them, i will burn them to a Blu-Ray disc. oh, i forgot, that delivery system hasn't been invented yet and is at least a year away.

canon is far from late to this party...and my xl2 is more than up to the jobs.

i think the whole spray-painted-camera-in-a-box is just a little joke from canon that got sort of out of hand, due to the world wide web factor and all of the anxiety out here about whether we plunked our money down on the wrong thing or the right thing.

it is *not* an easy time to make choices about these purchases, period. and those times are actually the most exciting times in any technological revolution.

ask me how much money i've dumped into new computers and upgraded software since 1985. so, why do we expect to buy one camera that is the be all/end all?

You guys are funny. "Fakes" and "jokes by Canon." I don't even get what people are thinking. Hmm...let's put out a "lesser model fake" to get everyone pissed off at us...than we'll win 'em all back in a week when we announce the real deal! Come on...

Man, I'm glad none of you are the heads of marketing departments.

Let's hope it's not 1080i only. I'll be disappointed with just HDV, BUT if it is 1080-24p, it could be a very, very good camera. Without the 24p, I think it's a deal killer and I'll go with the Panny...and keep my XL2.

Kevin

You guys are funny. "Fakes" and "jokes by Canon." I don't even get what people are thinking. Hmm...let's put out a "lesser model fake" to get everyone pissed off at us...than we'll win 'em all back in a week when we announce the real deal! Come on...<snip>

While I think Canon is doing some consumer manipulation and marketing with this HDV XL, I certainly agree that I wouldn't expect it to be any kind of joke or fake. No, I think this thing is generating quite a bit of buz and easy publicity, which is great considering how little it probably cost to get that mockup into the glass case. The big questions aren't if its real or not of course, but how much and what features? Who knows, maybe it'll land at $5,500 and beat the Z1 at its own 1080i game? Or it could come in at $6500 with 1080 24P and make some potential HVX buyers rethink the DVCPROHD/P2/Laptop/Firestore VS HDV/$5 Tape advantages.

Whatever the case, the more I think about it, I believe this Canon will be at least somewhat competitive within its feature/price point. Might it only be 1080i? Sure. Will it cost $10,000 then? No way.

Of course for me personally, the bigest disappointment might end up being if this is their only HDV cam anouncement for the year. While I enjoy watching the hi-end cams the reality is I'll probably never be able to afford one since I don't make my living with video. However, I really had (well, still have) my fingers crossed for an $1800 Optura HDV to replace the Xi and go head on with the HC1. Oh well, different thread I suppose.

Philip Williams

Thanks to dvinfo.net Chris Hurd for letting me upload to the gallery, I will post more images in there.

And I completly support the sceptiscism of the forum. without it there would be too many rumors based on nothing.

Now we have to wait for more info from Canon about the specs.

I have to believe the rumors are false, simply because Canon couldn't possibly be so stupid as to launch a relative turd in the face of JVC and Panasonic.

Hey Tim, you said in one line of text what it took me about a dozen posts over three or four related threads to say! What you may lack in refined eloquence, you more than make up for in brute clarity!
;-)
Now, bring on Canon Expo!

I've read several posts indicating the use of current XL lenses couldn't resolve enough detail or resolution to be used in an HDV cam. I know that when using the EF adapter and using EOS lenses the camera sharpens up nicely and since the resolution of Canon's DSLR's are up to 16MP- I think we don't need to worry about the resolving power of a lens they mate to their upcoming HDV camera- if it is in fact XL based.

I for one wouldn't mind at all if they released a simple HDV version of their XL cam with 720p or 1080i with a slight increase in price ($4000??) with interchangeable lenses- imagine the telephoto/macro possibilities (nature) and shooting HDV.....would be great!

Hey Tim, you said in one line of text what it took me about a dozen posts over three or four related threads to say! What you may lack in refined eloquence, you more than make up for in brute clarity!

What can I say, Pete...raised in Chicago and making my name in the redneck plantation of Iowa. We like to call 'dem thing as we see 'dem 'round these here parts.

Canon really let me down with the HDV format. If the Pana has a decent lux rating, 35mm adaptor, and a DTE disk, I can't see why anyone would be in the market for the canon HDV. Only time will tell the final outcome.


John

Canon really let me down with the HDV format. If the Pana has a decent lux rating, 35mm adaptor, and a DTE disk, I can't see why anyone would be in the market for the canon HDV. Only time will tell the final outcome.

John

How can they have let you down? They haven't announced anything yet. You should wait until any new camera is 'officially announced' with all the specs known before being let down.

=gb=

If the Pana has a decent lux rating, 35mm adaptor, and a DTE disk, I can't see why anyone would be in the market for the canon HDV. Only time will tell the final outcome.
John

How about "unlimited" quality glass possibilities with adaptors for PL and the most popular lens mounts in the industry?
How about the possibility of using a mini35 mounted directly to the XL lens mount, rather than having it going through sections and sections of prosumer glass?
How about a shoulder form factor for easier and more stable handheld shots? Specially if compared to the bulky HVX, which seems to be a brick block type of size and shape, this is very useful.
How about the possibility of using a high-resolution viewfinder or even a real HD viewfinder if you so want?
How about people who needs a more professional look camera for their clients, like wedding videographers? The average Joe could have an easier time seeing a XL type of camera, as a professional HD camera for which he's most likely paying HD prices, than a handheld prosumer looking camera.
How about freedom to shot without being dependent on a laptop to unload your P2 or 90 min. Firestore?
How about real focus and iris rings for real manual control?

Could you see now why somebody would be on the market for a Canon HDV?
Nothing against the HVX200, specially given it's not even out yet. But it sure won't be the end all cameras. It will have compromises as any other product. No camera is perfect. You just need to choose the one which is right for you. I can see the point on being upset if the new Canon has no 24p or even the projection that it will not sell very well, if it doesn't offer what the HD100 does, since they are somehow similar. But criticizing the camera for it being HDV is really pointless. HDV is just another option. If it isn't for you, just buy something else. But putting it down is really pointless.

Michael, mind you could be speaking about the JVC too... And JVC will be cheaper with just those differences about Progressive and 1080.

But it´s true, it´s not out yet so we should wait and then argue about them... Three days!

Michael, your points are valid, but you have to understand that many people including myself were hoping that Canon was going to do something truly "revolutionary." Am I disappointed if come Wednesday it's only HDV? Yes, I will be. Will it be a great, if not best-on-the-market HDV camera? Probably...I would love it for all of the reasons you listed.

That said, it's still HDV rather than a non-MPG2 format. For the past 3 months I was looking forward to buying the Panny. Then, I was surprised to hear Canon might announce a new HD "professional" camera. I was one really hoping that it would be a competitor to the HVX200. Unfortunately, it looks like Panasonic will be on an island at their price and quality point, with all the HDV stuff (JVC, SONY and Canon) below it.

It's making the decision for me which to buy even more difficult. I'd love to be tape based. I'd love to have DVC ProHD. I'd love a shoulder mount. I'd love to have Canon lenses. I'd love 2/3" chips. I'd love to spend less than $10k. Sigh...I guess I'll keep dreaming!

We'll see in a few days the details, but it looks like it's HDV from Canon. One thing nobody has brought up is the GL3, which may be announced, too. They're overdue for that and now THAT will be a nice camera for non-professional use, just like the incredible GL1 has been for me the past 4 years.

Kevin

PS-Hey, Canon: It'd better have 24p or the decision of which camera to buy is easy for me!

Michael, mind you could be speaking about the JVC too... And JVC will be cheaper with just those differences about Progressive and 1080.


You lost me here.

How about "unlimited" quality glass possibilities with adaptors for PL and the most popular lens mounts in the industry?
How about the possibility of using a mini35 mounted directly to the XL lens mount, rather than having it going through sections and sections of prosumer glass?
How about a shoulder form factor for easier and more stable handheld shots? Specially if compared to the bulky HVX, which seems to be a brick block type of size and shape, this is very useful.
How about the possibility of using a high-resolution viewfinder or even a real HD viewfinder if you so want?
How about people who needs a more professional look camera for their clients, like wedding videographers? The average Joe could have an easier time seeing a XL type of camera, as a professional HD camera for which he's most likely paying HD prices, than a handheld prosumer looking camera.
How about freedom to shot without being dependent on a laptop to unload your P2 or 90 min. Firestore?
How about real focus and iris rings for real manual control?

Could you see now why somebody would be on the market for a Canon HDV?
Nothing against the HVX200, specially given it's not even out yet. But it sure won't be the end all cameras. It will have compromises as any other product. No camera is perfect. You just need to choose the one which is right for you. I can see the point on being upset if the new Canon has no 24p or even the projection that it will not sell very well, if it doesn't offer what the HD100 does, since they are somehow similar. But criticizing the camera for it being HDV is really pointless. HDV is just another option. If it isn't for you, just buy something else. But putting it down is really pointless.




About the last few sentences. Whoa.....I wouldn't call it criticism. More like an opinion. Maybe it was the picture of the black XL2 with the letters HDV on it that did it.....who knows ;-). Like I said, only time will tell.

John

Michael, your points are valid, but you have to understand that many people including myself were hoping that Canon was going to do something truly "revolutionary." Am I disappointed if come Wednesday it's only HDV? Yes, I will be.

Only HDV? What else would you expect? HDCAM-SR?



That said, it's still HDV rather than a non-MPG2 format.

Such as?

For the past 3 months I was looking forward to buying the Panny. Then, I was surprised to hear Canon might announce a new HD "professional" camera. I was one really hoping that it would be a competitor to the HVX200.

And it will be, just like the HD100 and even Z1.


Unfortunately, it looks like Panasonic will be on an island at their price and quality point, with all the HDV stuff (JVC, SONY and Canon) below it.

Bellow it? From which point of view? Optics? Ergonomics? Resolution? Color space? Image control? You do realize bellow or above in this case is subjective, right?

It's making the decision for me which to buy even more difficult. I'd love to be tape based.

HD tape based in this price point is impossible, unless suing some type of compression, like the HDV format does. Why do you think the HVX200 records to memory?

I'd love to have DVC ProHD.

On tape, for under $10,000 or possibly even under $30,000? Impossible on this day and age.

I'd love a shoulder mount. I'd love to have Canon lenses. I'd love 2/3" chips. I'd love to spend less than $10k. Sigh...I guess I'll keep dreaming!

Oh yes, you are sure dreaming. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth.
Before making a request list, it’s wise to understand a little about the market realities.
Maybe in a couple of years, it will be possible to have a HD 2/3” professional shoulder camera with a non MPEG2 compression for under 10k. But for now, to dream about such thing is setting yourself up for disappointment.
Any and all HD cameras which come for under 10k now, will be full of compromises. You just need to pick the ones which you can better live with, or the camera which better suits you.

Michael, probably I shouldn't be answering for Kevin, as I don't know him or his intentions, but I think he knows the market limitations very well, that's why he said and realised those whiches were dreaming.
I think he maybe ment (or that's my conclusion out of it) that if Canon waited this long, they could bring SOMETHING on the table that the others didn't have, or have some very good feature or price point.
But - and only IF, IF, IF the not-officially announced information is true, which I doubt - else, Canon is offering too little for their price, and they have nothing the others don't really have, like they did have with the XL1 (that was a pretty revolutionary cam at the time, wasn't it?)

Well, I think it's best for me to shut up now, and let Kevin respond to it, because he'll know better then I do what he meant with what he said.

Michael, probably I shouldn't be answering for Kevin, as I don't know him or his intentions, but I think he knows the market limitations very well, that's why he said and realised those whiches were dreaming.
I think he maybe ment (or that's my conclusion out of it) that if Canon waited this long, they could bring SOMETHING on the table that the others didn't have, or have some very good feature or price point.

1. How do we know they didn't at this point?
2. What else could they have done which wasn't HDV based, since this seemed to be the main complain from Kevin.

But - and only IF, IF, IF the not-officially announced information is true, which I doubt - else, Canon is offering too little for their price, and they have nothing the others don't really have...

10k for a Canon 1/3"! HDV camera with 1080i only? That's sure bogus. Unless it will be a 2/3" camera ala the new JVC HD7000 and they found a way to fit it all in the XL body, or the XL body was just a decoy. See, we just don't know yet. We only know it will be HDV. That was basically what I addressed in Kevin's post. The HDV complain.

Yes I agree the specs and information that's now released seems really bogus. I can't really believe it either.
We'll have to wait, I suppose...
Damn exiting :-)!

10k for a Canon 1/3"! HDV camera with 1080i only? That's sure bogus.

Well, hold on a minute Michael. That price point might include, if nothing else, a higher quality glass than the standard lens supplied with the HD-100. Keep in mind, JVC has an 'optional' high def lens for that camera that costs about $13,000. Still a bargain when compared to the previous costs of image acquistion at this level of resolution. But you have to keep that in perspective. A lens that costs more than twice the price of camera w/supplied lens. Would it sell the Canon camera? I don't know, but just wanted to point out that there are ways to justifiably get the cost to 10K fairly quickly. Glass being one of them.

=gb=

Well, hold on a minute Michael. That price point might include, if nothing else, a higher quality glass than the standard lens supplied with the HD-100. Keep in mind, JVC has an 'optional' high def lens for that camera that costs about $13,000. Still a bargain when compared to the previous costs of image acquistion at this level of resolution. But you have to keep that in perspective. A lens that costs more than twice the price of camera w/supplied lens. Would it sell the Canon camera? I don't know, but just wanted to point out that there are ways to justifiably get the cost to 10K fairly quickly. Glass being one of them.

=gb=


I could see this as an alternative more expensive package. But I can't see it as the main package. They will have to have an affordable package, which will be what will sell. As JVC did. Although I know there are some who don't see it, what JVC did was actually smart. ;)
It would make no sense if they only offered a 10k option, when most people would most likely go for a cheaper option if available. Anyway you look at it, that information post on that site smells like bogus.

Anyway you look at it, that information post on that site smells like bogus.

Yes, I believe they might have some inaccurate, unreliable information there.;-)

Michael, I'm really not even sure how to respond to you. I'm not sure what level of knowledge you have regarding these different cameras, but I'll try to defend my questions as I know many people felt similarly.

**Sorry, responses are within the quotes.


"Only HDV? What else would you expect? HDCAM-SR?"


What prevents Canon from coming out with a new format/codec that would offer an DVCPro HD-like offering via component out? Again, my post said I was hoping for something "revolutionary" from them...not evolutionary.

"Such as?"

Do you think that HDV is the "top of the line?" It sounds like it. HVX200...check it out. Yes, it's tapeless and has it's own challenges. BUT, Panasonic is putting out a camera with a much better format/codec than HDV. This DOES NOT mean it's a better camera. But I hope you won't argue that MPG2-based HDV is technically a better format than 1080p. Please.


"And it will be (a competitor to the HVX200), just like the HD100 and even Z1."

As far as competition, I guess it will be a competitor due to market price proximity. But these are 2 VERY, VERY different cameras. I would have say "they're both fruit," but to compare an "apple to an apple" you're talking about the different HDV format cameras competing. This would be the JVC HD100, SONY Z1 and the Canon "whatever HDV comes out."



"Bellow it? From which point of view? Optics? Ergonomics? Resolution? Color space? Image control? You do realize bellow or above in this case is subjective, right?"

Yes, sort of. I would take a great shooter shooting DV over a newbie shooting HDV. Is that a subjective decision on which looks better? Yes. However, resolution is much less subjective than that. I was talking strictly about formats, not ergonomics or any of the other things that I actually like more about the Canon.


"HD tape based in this price point is impossible, unless suing some type of compression, like the HDV format does. Why do you think the HVX200 records to memory? On tape, for under $10,000 or possibly even under $30,000? Impossible on this day and age. Oh yes, you are sure dreaming. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth."

Wow, you seem angry. Yes, I'm dreaming. That was the point in stating all that!! I'm quite familiar with why Panny went tapeless and everything else you mentioned. It was not a request list and if you read some of my previous posts, you may see that I'm quite "wise" in understanding this stuff.


Honestly, this will my last reply to you. I know the mods don't like posts to go in this direction. Thanks for replying.

Kevin






Before making a request list, it’s wise to understand a little about the market realities.
Maybe in a couple of years, it will be possible to have a HD 2/3” professional shoulder camera with a non MPEG2 compression for under 10k. But for now, to dream about such thing is setting yourself up for disappointment.
Any and all HD cameras which come for under 10k now, will be full of compromises. You just need to pick the ones which you can better live with, or the camera which better suits you.

Yes, I believe they might have some inaccurate, unreliable information there.;-)
Greg,
I guess we'll just have to wait a couple of days to see just how inaccurate and unreliable the Camcorderinfo.com information is, won't we?

What prevents Canon from coming out with a new format/codec that would offer an DVCPro HD-like offering via component out? Again, my post said I was hoping for something "revolutionary" from them...not evolutionary. .

When was the last time you saw Canon developing their own format? What makes you think they could/would be willing to/ would be able to make the R&D money back on their products alone?
To hope that, is why I said it’s good to understand the realities of the industry before hoping for too much. You are just setting yourself for disappointment.



Do you think that HDV is the "top of the line?" It sounds like it. .

Why would I think so when I mentioned HDCAM-SR?


HVX200...check it out. Yes, it's tapeless .

I seem to remember you asking for a tape format…I'd love to be tape based. .


and has it's own challenges. BUT, Panasonic is putting out a camera with a much better format/codec than HDV. .

As you say, it presents it’s own challenges and have it’s own limitations.


This DOES NOT mean it's a better camera. .

I’m glad you understand that :D

But I hope you won't argue that MPG2-based HDV is technically a better format than 1080p. Please. .

Why would I? But is a camera only about format?




As far as competition, I guess it will be a competitor due to market price proximity. But these are 2 VERY, VERY different cameras. I would have say "they're both fruit," but to compare an "apple to an apple" you're talking about the different HDV format cameras competing. This would be the JVC HD100, SONY Z1 and the Canon "whatever HDV comes out." .

Or you could see it as both are alternatives for people who wants to shoot HD for an affordable price.


Yes, sort of. I would take a great shooter shooting DV over a newbie shooting HDV. .

Same can be said for HDV vs. DVCPROHD or even HDCAM-SR.




Is that a subjective decision on which looks better? Yes. However, resolution is much less subjective than that. I was talking strictly about formats, not ergonomics or any of the other things that I actually like more about the Canon. .

Format is not all. How good is HDCAM-SR seen through a prosumer lens for example?


Wow, you seem angry. .

Actually, that was more like humour. I’m sorry emotions can’t be expressed in a message board. But anger was the last of the intentions. Really.

Yes, I'm dreaming. That was the point in stating all that!! I'm quite familiar with why Panny went tapeless and everything else you mentioned. It was not a request list and if you read some of my previous posts, you may see that I'm quite "wise" in understanding this stuff. .

I’m glad of that.


Honestly, this will my last reply to you. I know the mods don't like posts to go in this direction. Thanks for replying.

It's being a pleasure and I think it’s being a civilized discussion. I didn’t see anybody offending anyone. I don’t think disagreeing is against the rules.

All I ask is that the "spirited debates" and various disagreements are kept on a friendly, courteous and mutually respectful basis here. Thanks,

About bloody time.

It's being a pleasure and I think it’s being a civilized discussion. I didn’t see anybody offending anyone. I don’t think disagreeing is against the rules.

Michael - while this discussion is civilized, it's virtually identical to another thread where you strongly disagreed with anyone, myself specifically, for disagreeing with manufacturer's design decisions (I was and am still unhappy with the HD100 lens choice and feel JVC made a significant error in bundling it).

While neither Kevin or I are camera engineers or manufacturers, we are buyers and our feedback to manufacturers over design choices is the most important things in determining the failure of success of the a camera.

You may argue that it's unrealistic for me to want more out of the HD100 lens or Kevin to look for more than HDV for $10k, (if the camcorderinfo is lucky enough to be correct), but the fact is the truly successful, revolutionary products deliver want customers want and people have considered unrealistic or impossible in the past.

The whole DV and computer revolution has been built on this very principle. While there is no "perfect" anything, there are "revolutionary" products.

The VX1000, XL1, DVX100, CineAlta and even the HD-10U were all revolutionary products delivering what was considered unrealistic at the time. They all have flaws and compromises (some more than others), but there mark on the market is far different from many other cams there were updates, mediocre or outright failures.

The unknown info is if Canon (or for that matter the HVX200) have a "revolutionary" product in the wings. The FX1/Z1 has certainly had it's impact but I'm not sure it's revolution yet. The HD100 is too new itself.

Bottom line, there is nothing wrong for asking for more, aiming high and demanding excellence.