Daniel Broadway:

<< I can't believe NO ONE on the internet could leak information about the XL2. No one has a picture, a drawing, or ANYTHING of it. >>

Where have you been? Jarred Land has had an XL2 photo on his site for months!

ha ha thanks Chris :)

And yes this is the first place I will come to find out the info.

>> ... I can tell you at least 800 people that jumped off the Canon camp and switched to the DVX just because there was no clue if the XL2 was coming around the corner or not. <<

People, particularly young men, are embarrassingly fickle for the latest "cool" thing. Unlike pro cameras that are marketed as components of total production systems requiring serious capitalization or commercial leasing, these cameras are within common Visa limits. Those who "jumped off the Canon camp" would jump right back on in a heartbeat for a "cool" or "chick magnet" camera.

Canon knows this very, very well. Time is on their side.

Hello Jarred,

Just out of curiousity, who makes that 2X extender you mentioned and how much is it? Have you used it at all? I would be curious if you feel that having the focus ring behind a 2X adaptor (rather than in front of the optics) is the ideal situation for maintaining sharp extreme telephoto focal images?

I know of one professional who gets 7000mm+ effective focal lengths by using a mechanical Leica-XL adaptor built by Jeff Kreines and some Leica Modul lenses. Has to mount a gyro-stabilizer to the bottom of his XL1S rig to keep the images steady. However, it allows him to get outstanding full-frame compositions (rather than settling for wide shots) of wild animals from hundreds of feet away. The images are spectacular and sharp as a tack.

On the flip side (and much more affordable), you can use the 7.2X conversion factor of the Canon EF adaptor to your advantage for extreme telephoto well beyond 800mm *with* Image Stabilization for under a thousand dollars. For example, the Canon 28-135mm IS USM lens http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...9&modelid=7337 (effective 201-972mm with the XL1S) or the Canon 75-300mm IS USM lens http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...0&modelid=7342 (effective 540-2160mm with the XL1S). Again, these lenses have built-in Image Stabilization and they can be purchased for around $430 each. That is considered cheap for those working professionals that truly have a need for these type of extreme focal lengths in their work. Try renting a 2000mm Image Stabilized lens from your local camera rental outfit. It would likely cost hundreds of dollars a day for that rental, if it were even available. Then there is also all of the other EF IS lenses available which many XL1S shooters take advantage of. Some of these shooters are DVi members. In addition to the Canon EF adaptor, there are many other types of mechanical and optical adaptors available too.

With the XL1S, you have complete control over lens options from the front of the lens straight to behind the optics where the actual capture is made. The DVX does not, you have to use adaptors in front of a fixed lens. For this reason, when the new XL does become available, many professionals may likely feel that instead of comparing the new XL to the DVX100a, it would be more realistic to stack the new XL against what the older XL1S was/is capable of or to at least compare it to other higher priced full-sized camcorders costing thousands and thousands of dollars more.

Again, no one here is saying that the DVX100 or DVX100a is a crummy camera. Not at all. I myself have a lot of experience with the DVX, also do use the XL1S a great deal, as well as other higher end full-sized cams. These are all merely tools. I would never suggest getting too attached to any one tool or paintbrush. Sometimes the client or budget dictates which camera you reach for. Your own unique needs and limitations will factor in too, of course. Pick the tool that you feel most comfortable with which has the feature set you need to create your vision. Be very happy that there are many options out there within your reach.

Best regards,

- don

<<Seriously, I can guarantee you that when an XL1S replacement is announced, DV Info Net will have the biggest, most comprehensive amount of information, photos, discussions and everything else you'll ever want to know. So keep it tuned right here; there will be a *lot* going on at this place when the time comes.>>

Oh, I'm quite sure that's true. This site is great.

I just hope Canon does something soon. If not, I might just move on to the DVX as well. THe DVX is a great camera.

I kinda wanted to stay away from the whole lens attatchment thing, but seriously, I dont care if you have a 10,000mm lens in front of the XL1.. the picture you get is not gonna be as good as a camera that isnt 10 years old is gonna get you. And you talk about sharpness? funny how a 60i camera gives "sharp" interlaced images isn't it. For you guys wanting a 1000mm+ lens on your camera all the power to you. Thats very cool, but would probally interest a fraction of a percentage of XL1 owners. I love to hear XL1 guys roll up and say "well I can change lens", and of then they admit they never have... in fact I betcha at least 80% of XL1 users have the stock lens and have never "switched"

As for the young comment, sure I may only be 30 and in this world that may be considered young. And yes I jump on new technology because it makes me more money. I said it already, but the XL1 is just fine for some people, just like 8mm is still some people favorite film stock. The XL1 isnt a bad camera, its just a very old camera with very old technology. And remember its a digital format and in the digital world things improve and change very fast.

But, hate for this to get all Mac. Vs. PCish. Lets all be friends :)

It's what you do with 'em that counts. Around here we're more interested in the people rather than the gear. It's all good no matter which way you go. And it's only getting better! Not that long ago there was a time when you couldn't buy into tools of this caliber without closets full of money, and now just about anybody with a vision and determination can own one. We're living in an interesting age of self-empowerment and the ability to independantly generate creative media. Who cares if you drive a Ford or a Chevy.

yes.. Love is in the air.

Debates get heated because there is Passion... to me thats not a bad thing. Thanks to Chris for allowing us to discuss and argue and laugh and cry. Well maybe not cry.

"and as for the prototypes.. the DVX kinda came in as a surprise as well, and that balsa thing is definately a consumer based product.. its not a DVX replacement and never intended to be.


I only mentioned the balsa wood prototype as an example, didn't mean to slam panasonic or insinuate that it was a DVX replacement.

My point was just that seeing prototypes like that do us about as much good as XL2 rumors do now. There is no guarantee that the camera will come out when they say, or include the features that the prototype is said to have. Essentially, premature prototypes can be viewed as rumors started by the manufacturers themselves.
So, although it is hard to sit by and wait for Canon to give the official word, I do appreciate that once they give that official word it means something concrete.

That's all I meant.

-Luis

ps.
for the record, I shoot with a DVX myself.
Killer camera.
And in response to the comments about young people.... I don't
consider myself young, but if the new XL camera is better, I will
drop the DVX like a hot potato if it suits my projects.

Hi Jarred,

Am still interested in the 2X tele adaptor for the DXV you mentioned. Who makes it? Price? What's your take on it?

By the way, I do use different lens configs with my XL1S and I know many others who do as well. Yes, I agree with you not everyone does, but those that do are mighty thankful that we can. No offense, cool?

I'm curious about that 2X for the DVX. Iv'e been in situations with a DVX before where I wish I had that at my disposal.

Hoping to hear back from you,

- don

Cavision and Optex make a pretty good 2x. Century optics make a 1.6x that have very good glass, and there are even crappy ones on ebay for $150. Depends what your looking for I guess.

Luis

Canon used to show the balsa-cams back in the day. The very first time the XL1 was displayed in public, back in the fall of 1997, it was termite fodder. Funny thing about those wooden mock-ups, they're very expensive to make. Just like other manufacturers, they have development projects and prototypes and mock-ups and whatnot, they just don't bring 'em to trade shows anymore.

yeah.. that Panasonic Balsa cam at NAB cost as much as a Porsche. Seriously.

Canon's booth at Nab this year was strangley very boring looking, in fact so was the one at DVexpo. I have a feeling they are saving thier marketing pennies to really market the XL2.. Its will be exciting Im sure.

Jarred,
I think you have misread my post. My remark concerning "young males" was certainly not directed as a barb toward you whatsoever. With that, I was merely portraying a consumer profile for these cameras.

No poke intended.

I wonder how politically incorrect we could get if we actually did start to do some social profiling based on camcorder choice. Heh. Is there an "on the fast track to becoming an old fart" camcorder? Sign me up.

Well, I use a Canon GL2. I don't use frame mode However, I film-look it in After Effects.

Also, I'm using the GL2 to made a live action version of a Anime style fight in the sky. Imagine something similar to the fight between Neo and Smith at the end of Revolutions.

SO what kind of profile can you deduce about me? Ha ha.

Oh oh, let's get back on topic, go XL2! Give me 24p or give me death!

Gosh, I think Canon has to come out with something super-revolutionary like 3-chip HDV this time around to stop the AGDVX-100 juggernaut - if it's just another interchangeable-lens SD 1/3" with say 24p, even with 16:9, Canon would just be "pulling up alongside" panasonic... i hope there will be a high-effective pixel count on the 3 chips at least - looking at the specs for the new panasonic gs400, man, it's amazing what panasonic is offering to the starving-artist indie guy who wants to make movies... Why would Canon be a part of the HDV collective and then not do anything on the camera side?

I don't think we'll see anything "revolutionary" from canon on this camera. Canon's video division is a very small place...we're not talking sony or panasonic here...Canon BUYS most of its technology in this field (versus the still camera arena where they make everything).

The xl1s replacement cam will most likely have the same panasonic chips as the dvx100, and an enhanced menu system not unlike that same camera. We might also hope for a flip out LCD, and I would bet that we'll get xlr inputs. And seeing as the only official statement about the camera (over a year ago) said that it would probably have 24p...I think thats a safe bet. After all that, the xl-whatever will be the best camera in it's market segment..period, because the strength of the xl camera series is in the PLATFORM, not in some new, hyped up technology.

Unfortunately I agree with barry. The only thing that makes me think that it wouldn't be something like that is the fact that so many people (who apparently know what they're talking about insist that this is a camera that will blow us away, or will defintely hold it's market share for more then 6 months. I don't think a dvx 100 with 16:9 chips and an interchangable lens will do such a thing (unless maybe they bring out some sort of 3d lens...)

So tell me all you sage advisors of everything canon out here, Am I looking for too much in hoping that the Canon camera is more then a gussied up dvx100(a)? What do you think?

Nick

Here's the thing... the market segment that these two cameras compete in is in the prosumer digital cinema area. The DVX is the first camera in this range to offer the resolution, progressive capture, and 24p components of this picture, but it's still basically in the form factor of an amateur camcorder. The xl1s is still the only camera in this market segment that looks, and acts and feels like a real camera...ok--professional camera...the only reason I still use my xl1s at all is because I will not give up my manual lens...the dvx can't offer you this kind of control. Now by marrying the best of what the DVX offers with the platform of the XL series...this is not a gussied up dvx...this is simply the best camera available under $10,000. That blows my mind.

Barry

I think Barry's remarks are on-target concerning what to expect. That's a feature set deliverable within the $4,000+/- price bracket, which will probably remain the goal.

Barry will win the contest and receive a free XL2. <g>

contest....what contest...?

Well said Barry! You definitely have a good understanding of the market. Youv'e got some great images too!

- don

"if it's just another interchangeable-lens SD 1/3" with say 24p,
even with 16:9, Canon would just be "pulling up alongside" panasonic...


Just another?
The DVX doesn't offer interchangeable lenses or true 16:9.
If Canon pulls off the features you outlined, they would not only
pull up alongside panasonic, they would leave them behind.

A camera with all the features you mention would be the
ultimate DV camera. Everyone keeps talking about HD and HDV,
but honestly, I just keep waiting for a manufacturer to give
us all the features we want in a 1/3" DV camera. Up to date,
every camera seems handicapped in some way.

If we could get the 24p, Gamma settings, LCD & XLRs of the DVX
with the lens system and viewfinder options of an XL1, PLUS true
16:9 images...that camera would be the most complete 1/3" DV
camera around. Not to mention, it would sell like hotcakes.


Not exactly something to brush over, in my opinion.

-Luis

I agree. I doubt the XL2 will have HD. It *might*, but I kinda doubt it. It takes about 18 months to go from drawing boards to finished product. And HDV was only approved in like September 2003. Maybe October, I don't remember.

However, if Canon new about HDV before it was actually approved. They might have something HD heading our way.

If it shot 24p and was true 16:9, that would be pretty sweet to me.

Daniel

Canon is in fact one of the founding members of the HDV consortium. But remember what I've been telling you guys. What does history teach us? When DV was introduced in 1995, Sony jumped on it with the very successful VX1000. How long until Canon responded with a DV camcorder of their own? Not until November 1997 with the original Optura and the XL1. Canon has never been known to be the first on the block with anything. They have a reputation for being the last major manufacturer to play their hand.

::sigh::

This is not the rousing canon hype that I was hoping for.

Barry, I understand the market that you're talking about and believe me I thoroughly enjoyed using the manual (14x) lens on my xl1's (plural). I had just come to hope for a huge leap in the technology not merely the next step. I guess on the plus side if canon does simply just bump everything up a notch, maybe then Juan's mod (in othe alternative imaging forum) won't have too much difficulty adapting to this new camera. Either way I don't think the sales of this particular camera will hold up when a real HDV camera is released, but who knows when that will be.

<<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Broadway : Looks like Amazon.com is selling the XL1s for $3500. Could be a sign. Like Chris says, look at history.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...photo&n=172282 -->>>

And now they have it a bit higher ($4,500).

if anyone needs a reason to feel better,
by looking at history we can also see that Canon has always upgraded a camera once before radically changing it.

THe XL1 was already upgraded to the XL1s.
It is due for a radical change.

I doubt all we'll see is an upgrade with a few little tweaks.
I'm not saying it will be HD, but it will definitely be worth
the wait.

Just my guess.

-Luis

It's getting annoying, all this unwarranted hopefulness about the 2nd coming (or is it the 3rd?). So, Canonites, mull over this prognostication.

Here's how I call it: We won't see anything more in the VL series from Canon. They've discontinued the XL1s and from now on, I expect they'll produce lower cost consumer camcorders and focus on their strong area of production, which is still cameras and lenses for them. They may not make even single-CCD camcorders in a few years.

Who could blame them? I don't imagine video has been very profitable for them, compared to their primary products. Sony has battered them, in terms of video market share, while Canon has far outdone Sony with still cameras. If you have any of the five VL models, hang onto them-----they'll be real collector's items.

Steve McDonald

Contest Prizes?
 

By the way, if my predictions win the contest, what's my prize? A kick in the pants, I imagine.

Steve McDonald

the XL1 belongs to the VL body line, I think that is what he was kinda saying.

I guess all we can do is wait and wait.. the arguments are starting to repeat themselves 3 or 4 times in the same thread now.

As for Sony taking the market share... true but to me they are on the bottom of the pile. I just got hired to shoot a commercial with 3 pd150s today. I must tell you, it by far is the most useless camera I have ever used. No focus marks, not zoom marks, I dont know what the hell good those things are. I missed my DVX sorely and woulda prefered it, but man I woulda traded those 3 pd150's for a single XL1s in a heartbeat, even with the Worst lens Canon has ever made, the stock one that comes with the camera.

And as for HDV.. I betcha the XL2 will have it in some form, the 18 months isnt a good guideline, remember JVC has had thier version on the shelves for quite some time, out before even the Spec was finallized. I have a feeling all the manufactures had a head start.

history?
 

So, Chris, going by mini-dv history, Panasonic would continue to be dead-last in 3-chip prosumer mini-dv...?

Seems like someone has learned from history and decided to do something about it for the better.

Here's hoping that Canon can do the same.

HDV or bust!

Jarred I was put in the same position as you with the pd150 and I remember thnking the exact same thing. I also really want to agree with you on the HDV thing, unfortunately I doubt it will happen.

For those who may not be aware, the Canon VL product line was composed of the old Hi-8 camcorders with interchangeable lenses, from the early '90's. They have absolutely nothing in common with the XL camcorders, except for the concept of interchangeable lenses. The VL series (the Canon L1, L2, LX100) each had a single 1/2" CCD and a "VL" lens mount (entirely incompatible with the later XL, by the way). The VL line was discontinued -- I think the last new ones sold out in in 1994 -- and Canon spent the next few years re-tooling for the new XL line, which debuted with the XL1 in 1998 (contrary to the opinions of some, the XL1 is six and a half years old, not a decade).

The L1 and L2 were outwardly identical with the only difference being a newer CCD in the L2 and a few other refinements. The LX100 and LX200 were black-body "pro" versions with dust-sealed tape door gaskets. There were three VL lenses, including a 3x wide, a 10x standard, and a 15x with OIS. And there were EF and FD photo lens adapters. The VL line grew out of the original Canon A1 series of Hi-8 camcorders... an L1 was an A1 with interchangeable lenses. An XL1 is an entirely different thing altogether.

When Steve McDonald predicted "we won't see anything new in the VL line," he was making what I thought was a pretty funny joke, considering that the VL line was discontinued about ten years ago.

For those who for whatever reason may be looking for a Hi-8 camcorder, I can't recommend these things although you can find them on Ebay occasionally. They suffer the same issue that plagues all Hi-8 camcorders over eight or ten years old: leaking capacitors, which completely ruin a camcorder. They're very expensive to replace. You can tell when they've started leaking when you detect a "rotten egg" smell inside the tape transport chassis. Very common among all older Hi-8's from the early '90's.

There's your history lesson for today -- hope this helps,

My dealers says XL1s is discontinued but plays dumb on replacement specs
 

I've picked up a pocket b-cam (Optura 40) at my local cam shop (www.carolinacamera.com) that is a pretty big authorized Canon dealer, though mostly on the 35mm SLR side. I had planned on getting an Optura Xi, but it turned out to also be discontinued.

Without any questions of comments from me, they said the XL1s also was discontinued i.e. they cannot order it from Canon anymore and second, it's replacement is due in a couple of weeks. Specs - they said, "er, we have not seen any yet but it's supposed to be killer". Both senior sales managers stated this.

Interesting. They tend to be a little behind on video products in general, so if they heard it's been discountined, I would tend to think this is in fact true.

It was only recently that I remembered that my first camcorder purchase, somewhere around '89, was the Canon F1000S, a repackaging of the first SVHS camcorder, the Panasonic AG-450 (? do I have that model number correct?) with some minor differences. I beat that thing senseless for about 7 years.

I believe that was Canon's *only* S-VHS camcorder, Charles. Probably a collector's item now...

Chris Hurd wrote: I wonder how politically incorrect we could get if we actually did start to do some social profiling based on camcorder choice. Heh. Is there an "on the fast track to becoming an old fart" camcorder? Sign me up.


Chris and Pappy,

Would the F1000S qualify as an "old fart" camcorder?

- don

Ohh, ok, that was just a mis understanding on my part. I thought he meant that Canon would not sell prosumer gear anymore.

I think that would be sad. Although, Panasonic seems to be doing pretty well with making some interesting advnacements with prosumer stuff.