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-   -   Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/area-51/496812-rolling-shutter-free-far-away-dream-consumers-prosumers.html)

Chris Medico October 30th, 2012 04:36 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
The global shutter looks to be on the F55 but not on the F5.

Jack Zhang October 30th, 2012 09:09 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Which does mean we have a while to go for that to propagate down to the cheaper cams.

It's a step in the right direction. The CMOSIS sensor from what I heard costs $200 each.

Chris Medico October 30th, 2012 09:11 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
At least it is a feature that is being seen as having a value in the marketplace.

Jeff Kellam October 30th, 2012 12:49 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Jack:

Im so glad to see you keep this issue alive.

Im not doing much video nowdays, but it looks like people are dumbing down and accepting rolling shutter as normal more and more. It's possible lots of younger videographers have never even seen real video off a CCD camera, so they really just dont know what real motion even looks like.

I came to DVinfo today to see what all cameras are available nowdays. Looks like they are all CMOS. I guess I will go back into my hole for another 3 to 4 years and think about replacing cameras then.

Jeff

Sander Vreuls October 30th, 2012 01:43 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Tbh, most broadcast cameras are still CCD, so if you watch a live HD broadcast chances are pretty big that they are CCD's in action.. So they must have seen it :)

Anyway.. CCD is on the way out, and rightfully so.. Even though it has made beautiful pictures, CMOS is surpassing it in many features..

Jack Zhang October 31st, 2012 09:12 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Which is why Global Shutter CMOS is the next innovation that needs to start in the high-end and slowly get cheaper to produce to the point of reaching the consumer.

I remember a time when skew and flash banding were not issues. Like I said about a year ago in this thread, current obstacles to Global Shutters are limited Dynamic Range and Noise. The GS2K looked good from some sample footage that I've seen, all it takes is a good DSP and a RGB prism with 3 sensors for that sensor to possibly produce decent images.

Sander Vreuls October 31st, 2012 09:54 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
This might be a nice read then
http://www.grassvalley.com/docs/Whit...sium-FT_WP.pdf

Jeff Kellam November 1st, 2012 09:15 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Sander:

Although that "white paper" was ridiculously biased, it was still a good read, and nice to see that CMOS solutions are on the way, however imperfect they may be.

I just hope this type of sensor can start moving into the prosumer market really soon.

Jeff

Jack Zhang February 13th, 2015 12:12 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Bumping this thread after 3 years to say 4K is going to make this even harder. Skew is getting worse as sensors have to scan more pixels and Global Shutter cams (decent ones from Sony or etc, not Blackmagic's) seem further away from reality more than ever.

Thank you Sony for the F55, but at the same time, at least something in the XDCAM lineup needs a global shutter, but 4K is making that more impossible.

The Blackmagic cameras are trying to re-purpose industrial robot CMOS sensors to do video. Remember the "black sun" bug? That's not a bug. That's how the sensor takes the data in natively, and Blackmagic has to modify that data to make a usable image, but it makes lots of image artifacts as a result.

Unless organic CMOS upcoming is capable of Global Shutter, expect the dream to fade further away as 4K begins to become more prevalent.

Jack Zhang December 23rd, 2015 11:22 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
End of year musings after seeing the Filmmaker IQ on camera sensors:

Global Shutter CMOS sensors will suffer one dramatic flaw: They are magnitudes more sensitive to laser strikes than standard CMOS sensors, because of more transistors on each sensing pixel on the silicon. (that's what causes lasers to kill pixels, the photon overload literally destroys the transistor on or near the pixel.)

Even beam splitted lasers pose a risk to cameras like the F55. The party laser boxes that project dots on the floor are actually a risk.

Better laser immunity will only come with a new technology, like the organic tech aforementioned, which puts the transistors below the pickup layer and a protective layer. With the stuff below the pickup, it might leave more room to allow Global Shutter but not sacrifice resilience to low power laser strikes.

Roger Shore December 24th, 2015 04:21 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Although I'm only a (very) amateur videographer, I have always detested rolling shutter artifacts, and still prefer to use my ageing CCD sensors consumer camcorders. I'm often accused on some video forums of 'overreacting' when complaining about rolling shutters, but I just get 'sea sick' with that dreadful 'jello' motion that accompanies many moving sequences shot with CMOS sensors.

And these days even broadcasters - like our own BBC here in the UK - seem happy to use using CMOS sensors in totally inappropriate situations, on occasion. How standards have dropped!

So I totally share the sentiment in Jack's sig, and hope my CCD cameras last until global CMOS sensors arrive in 'amateur land'..........Oh look, there's a flying pig!.....

Jack Zhang December 24th, 2015 01:56 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
CCDs are also more resilient to lasers since there's less circuitry on or near the pixel itself to permanently overload.

CCDs have a different problem though: When you increase the gain, you often get "hot pixels" that are stuck on white.

I personally think organic BSI global shutter CMOS will be the breakthrough needed, and the F55 successor better have it.

Also, for those actually interested in rolling shutter artifacts, here's an Imgur album for you: http://imgur.com/gallery/RG7Kd

Jim Martin August 31st, 2016 03:38 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Canon develops global shutter-equipped CMOS sensor that achieves expanded dynamic range through new drive method | Canon Global

Jack Zhang September 2nd, 2016 11:30 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Yes, but that sensor is on the F55 level of out of reach for prosumers. The point of this thread is for that tech to propagate down to prosumer and consumer tech. It hasn't happened yet. (Blackmagic is the thorn in the bush, cause they use machine vision sensors and not specifically video sensors. Canon in the release did say they're doing machine vision first with this sensor then "considering" video production. I'm talking from the major manufacturers at a cost most people can afford.)

Gary Huff September 2nd, 2016 11:51 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Well, you'll have to wait a while for this technology to trickle down into your typical $2500+ professional hybrid photo/video camera and $5000+ video-centric large sensor cameras. Probably by the 2020s.


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