I tried using VSX2 to smart render edited 30p and I am still getting the blips. Larry, can you try to reproduce the blips using 60i on your HF100? I will try to run some more tests.

Peter,

60i from my Canon HF100 produces the same blips on my system as they do on yours, but 30p frame rate has no evidence of blips whatsoever for the 2 trials I've done here. If you want to send me another clip taken with your HF100 at 30p I will be glad to use it to make another trial run here, and see how it goes. Try to keep your clip in the 6 or 7 MB size range so that the finished movie I send back to you will be no more than 14 or 15 MB including the transition I add at the middle.

Larry

Larry, I sent a couple more files to the email. One is the 30p MTS and the other is the edited 30p item. In regard to transitions: I've heard that transitions on HF100 MTS files are an insurmountable bug with VSX2 because they always cause blips. I am merely having problems with straight cuts.

I've also sent to the email a 60i clip that was smart rendered by Nero, then edited and smart rendered by VSX2. Although the blip is gone, I notice a distinct fast motion artifact where the blip would normally occur. It seems that when VSX2 uses the Nero file it is smoothing over the blip by using a fast motion artifact. I am sure that the pan was steady, so the fast motion you see before the cut is likely created by VSX2.

I did a test where I took a 30p HF100 file, smart rendered with Nero, then edited and smart rendered with VSX2. This one looks pretty much artifact free, although my weak computer stutters a bit during playback, so I may not be noticing some very small problems. I think I will stick with this workflow barring any revelations that anyone has. Thanks again for all your help, Larry.

This is a really interesting set of files Peter. I do see a very small but noticeable flaw in the place formerly occupied by the blip, and it too is a stitching / splicing error but far less noticeable. Your test clip is an extremely revealing one, since the graduated measuring tape as well as the linear motion of the pan clearly shows flaws in both the correct fitting of the splice spatially as well as the uniform motion (or lack thereof) temporally. The videos I used for my VSX2Pro work were far less revealing since they contained mostly boating scenes from the summer I made while on the water. The motion of the waves and the boat and people did not allow for such accurate and precise inspection, nor did they reveal the flaws in joining or lack of totally linear rendering of the splice.

It may be reassuring for you to note that I do not see any stuttering in any of your samples, and attribute the stutter to your hardware. The blips are there for sure, but are masked (only for 30p) by "normal" video clip content which lacks the frames of reference you have chosen.

The Nero work-around does help, but adds another step, and slightly degrades quality.

I am going to do a little more experimentation here, but think perhaps we are both in agreement that VSX2Pro has a problem which is, in the case of 60i with the HF100 clearly visible, with 30p visible with the right type of stressing clip, and next to invisible otherwise. Not a great conclusion to arrive at.....

I am going to go back and take a look at Cyberlink Power Director, another low cost AVCHD program I use a lot here, and see how it handles the very same clip and splice. I will let you know.....

Best,
Larry

Peter,

I have just sent you a Cyberlink PowerDirector 7 Ultra clip using your original 00050.MTS 30p clip cut into 2 pieces and then arranged with the second part preceding the 1st part, then smart rendered. How does it look to you?

Larry

Peter,

There is also a sample from Vegas 8 Pro I have made for you to look at using your clip in the same manner. Check the shared file gmail account.

Larry

The Vegas video seems to be much shorter than the other clips we have been looking at, but it is only 1.9mb.

The Power Director Video seems to stutter a bit, but maybe it is my player.

I think I will stick with HF100 30p smart rendered with Nero, followed by VSX2 editing and smart-rendering. I think I will try to cut at points where there is minimal camera movement, because static shots seem to camoflauge the artifacts.

Peter,

The Vegas sample is 18.88 MBytes, and I went to the Gmail account and downloaded it to my own machine just to verify the entire file was indeed uploaded. I am not sure why you are seeing a smaller file, since it is certainly 18.88 MBytes in length on Gmail.

The stutter you apparently are seeing on the Cyberlink Power Director sample is arising from your player / computer. The sample does not stutter at all on this machine.

The workflow you have settled on with Nero and Video Studio does work, but I would find it a bit cumbersome. Hopefully Corel will get the bug fixed soon.....

Larry

In that case, it sounds like Power Director is the way to go for HF100 AVCHD, providing your system satisfies the requirements. I will try the demo and see what happens. I'm a bit nervous that my computer isn't up to the system requirements. It's too bad that more video editors don't have the smart proxy system that VS has. That would allow a lot more computers to edit AVCHD.

Peter,

In the final analysis, if I could keep one and only one program for AVCHD, it would be PowerDirector 7 Ultra.

It did not get smart rendering added until recently in an update patch, and it was buggy when it was first released but now runs very smoothly. I'm not sure how well it will run on your system, but the download trial should answer your question in this regard. It seems to handle the HF100 exceptionally well, does really nice looking disks, and is mostly very intuitive to use.

Unlike some of the other programs I have used, it also does a gentle but very impressive manually specified and optional "sharpening" to AVCHD clips if you should chose to do so. This becomes desireable when other editing has been done (such as color balance changes or titling) where re-rendering is unavoidable. The sharpening results in the final rendering video looking indistinguishable in very fine detail from the original clip.

It most certainly is worth a download trial, and, in my opinion, unquestionably well worth the cost of purchase. I believe they also use a smart proxy and the mimimum hardware seems to be consistent with your system: "AVCHD and MPEG-2 HD Profiles: Pentium Core 2 Duo E6400 or Athlon 64 X2 5000+".
Larry

Hi Larry,

I've been using the trial version of PowerDirector 7 for a couple of days and I can't get smart rendering work. I'm assuming that's no enable in this version.

Can you please explain how you get SVRT to work in PD 7? Are you creating a custom profile or is the profile include in the full version?

Thanks,

Juan

Hi Juan,

It appears that the SVRT feature is always on, and I do not know of a switch you need to use to enable it.

You can show SVRT info by choosing the VIEW Menu and then selecting the SVRT info choice.

If SVRT is available for a specific clip, it has a green bar above it in the time line. If not, it has different color bars depending on whether video and audio re-rendering is required.

I have attached 2 screen clips which show:

1. The proper setting of the SVRT info panel to show AVCHD 1920 by 1080 HD SVRT

2. the SVRT time line with one clip in red and the other in green, showing the first will be re-rendered and the second will not.

I assume you are using AVCHD format video.

Be sure you are using the latest 2.2.2.7.c. release of Power Director 7 Ultra. Earlier versions do not provide SVRT for AVCHD. Cyberlink did not officially admit it was absent in the prior version nor did it advertise the fact that it was added for 2.2.2.7.c.

Hope this helps you,

Larry

Thanks Larry,

I can tell by the first screen shot that the TRIAL version of PD 7 does NOT include the AVCHD 1920X1080 profile. I did create a custom profile, but it's not added to the SVRT info panel, therefore no smart rendering present. In conclusion, you need to buy the full version to see SVRT working (what a shame cyberlink!)

I'm using m2ts files from my Canon HF-10 (1920X1080 - 17Mbps - 60i and 30p). I was sold with VideoStudio X2, but the infamous "blip bug" that you and Peter described here kills the deal. Do you think this bug can be fixed? Almost three months have passed from the first time somebody described this problem in their forums.

In PowerDirector, is the bitrate in my files (17Mbps) an issue to get smart rendering working?

Thanks again.

Glad to help you Juan!

One other possibility is that the trial version isn't version 2.2.2.7.c. If it's any earlier, then SVRT for AVCHD will not be present. Cyberlink was a bit deceptive in the way they initially boasted of AVCHD smart rendering, but it only recently has been added.

It's really hard for me to tell how Corel will deal with this bug in VideoStudio X2 Pro which Peter and others discovered. Although there are a lot of people now complaining about it on their forum, some of us using non-default camera settings never noticed it. Since Corel only took over ownership from Ulead fairly recently, there is also some question about the continuity of support going forward. I do not recall ever seeing it in version 11.5, and it may only be a problem with the X2 release for all I know.

The bitrate of your HF10 is exactly the same as my HF100, and all the smart rendering programs including Corel, Cyberlink, Nero, and ArcSoft handle it with no problems. The newer HF11 higher bitrate of 24 Mbits/sec may be an issue and until I get a higher bitrate camera and do some testing myself, I do not yet have an opinion on this higher rate.

Hope I have been of help to you.

Larry

Juan, you may need to change the Aspect Ratio in the view menu to 16:9 in order for the 1920x1080 option to show up.

I bought the full version of powerdirector, and I am noticing a quality loss, even when I set the max bit rate to 20K. (For some reason it doesn't allow you to set the avg bit rate above 14.8K which is less than the HF100's max of 17k - maybe this is the problem). It seems to be smart rendering the whole project but I noticed it takes much longer than VSX2.

I think I will stick with my Nero Vision to VSX2 workflow given that the PowerDirector video quality seems slightly degraded.

Larry, do you notice degradation in PD? It's most noticeable on panning shots where some pixelation shows up.

Peter,

I think you may have Power Director misconfigured. My experience from comparing the three smart rendered outputs from VSX2 Pro, Nero Vision, and Power Director 7 Ultimate for a 3 minute 17 second video are as follows:

Corel: 79 seconds (2.5 time real time)
Power Director: 37 seconds (5.3 times real time)
Nero: 21 seconds (9.4 times real time)

(You will see in the speeds above why I absolutely LOVE smart rendering!)

Note that in my case it is Corel which takes the longest time by a factor of over 2X compared to Cyberlink Power Director.

In all 3 cases, the output file is 100% smart rendered, and is merely a rewrite of the original camcorder file with slight changes to headers and other non-video data.

The file sizes, just for reference, are:

Original file: 381,024 KB
Corel: 381,384KB
Power Director 7: 380,459KB
Nero: 382,794KB

I do NOT see any pixellation whatsoever, and strongy suspect that you are NOT smart rendering and also that your playback system which does, in some instances, stutter, may also be at the root cause of this pixellation.

Feel free to email me a short clip via the method we previously used if you want me to see if pixellation occurs, but it is appears that some setting in your configuration is not correct if PD7 is taking longer and also producing such effects, since the smart rendering should NOT cause any structural change to the file or its GOPs.

Larry

Thanks Peter, I spent 3 hrs trying to figure that out, I bought the full version of PD 7 Ultra too.

Larry, in my testing I'm using a 17 seconds clip, so far my experience is as follow:

1. Clip repeated 3 times, NO transitions, NO titles - 100% smart rendering, extremely fast.

2. Clip repeated 3 times, transitions included, No titles - smart rendering present only in the first clip, time elapsed (mm:ss): 02:37

3. Clip repeated 3 times, transitions included, title include in the 1st clip - I'm absolutely sure NO smart rendering at all, time elapsed (mm:ss): 03:56

hopefully this is just a configuration problem, otherwise the program would be useless to edit AVCHD from Canon cameras.

Juan,

I did your 3 trials, and found smart rendering to take place in ***ALL 3*** cases, with the transitions adding some extra delays as woiuld be expected.

Note the attached jpeg showing the smart rendered time line in green for the clips and red for the transitions.

I took 21 seconds for the 3 clips with no transitions, and 87 seconds for the 3 clips with all transitions.

Larry

Thank's Larry, I noticed that you clip is a little bit longer (30 s) than mine (17 s), perhaps that's my problem. I will try with a longer clip.

I get exactly the same smart rendered time line than you, however my experience was as described in my last post.

Shorter clips (17 seconds) also seem to work properly here....

Larry, I tested with a 30 second clip, and unfortunately I got the same results. When transitions are added just the first clip is smart rendered. In the final movie, the first part (clip smart rendered) show the same quality as the original (obviously), but the 2nd and 3rd part show some pixelation as described by Peter.

Let's check settings. In the Production Wizard (Produce tab), Step 2:

- AVC.MPGE4
- Profile: Default
- Profile name/Quality: AVCHD 1920 x 1080
- Use SVRT to save rendering time: checked

Juan

Note: Unfortunately, I can't attach images.

Is it possible that you have Dolby 5.1 checked? This causes re-rendering since the camera audio is Dolby 2.0.

Do you have a player which shows the playback bitrate, such as the Nero Showtime player? I am wondering if the video you are rendering has the same bit rate for the 2nd and 4rd clip as it does for the first clip?

For whatever it is worth, the encoding progress indicator does NOT move across at a linear rate during the Produce Movie process. It moves to about a third very quickly and takes a lot longer to do the remaining two thirds. My total time is still way shorter than yours, and my encoded bit rates are consistent across the 3 clips, as is the video appearance / quality.

Larry

I don't have Dolby 5.1 checked, but in that case the program would re-render just the audio.

I did check the movie in Nero Showtime and the bitrate in the 2nd and 3rd clip are considerably lower than the first clip.

During the rendering process, my test has the same behaviour that your test: "It moves to about a third very quickly and takes a lot longer to do the remaining two thirds"

IMHO, all this would indicate that just the first clip is using "smart rendering".

As for the rendering time, your computer is probably faster than mine (pentium dual core).

Anyway, I have no explanation for your results: consistent bitrates across the 3 clips and the good video quality, so there's hope.

Juan

Juan,

I'm still trying to see what your situation is. I mentioned Dolby 5.1 only because I thought it might account for your longer render times, not that it would impact video rendering. My CPU is faster and there may be some use of the CUDA GPU for some of this speed increase as well, since the 2.2.2.7c version uses my nVidia graphics card for some functions.

When I carefully watch the output video file, the 3 copies of the same clip all swing between around 14.3 and 15.5 Mbits/sec on the Showtime display. This is the very same as I see on the original clip. The 2nd and 3rd clips do seem to perhaps swing a bit more rapidly over the same range than the first clip, so perhaps there actually is some difference in the way a smart render occurs after a transition has been processed. This is not a dramatic difference, and I wonder if you are actually seeing a true drop in bitrate for the 2nd and 3rd clip, or just seeing something like I am here.

My render time increases in a logical way as I increase the transitions from 0 to 1 to 2. About 20 seconds to do the 3 clips with no transitions, 53 seconds for 1 transition, and 88 seconds for both transitions. I assume that each clip takes about 7 seconds and each transition takes about 34 seconds. I am using "Dissolve Mild" transitions, and assume that your selected transition takes shorter or longer times based on the complexity of the specific effect you happen to chose.

Hope this helps.

Larry

Hey Larry. Need your expertise. I have Nero 9 and have tried to burn AVCHD footage shot with my SR11. I can capture the footage OK, and can move it down to the timeline. But when it comes to burning an AVCHD DVD, only the first shot (file?) is burned, but none of the others. I have even pushed the red button below the preview screen so that the entire program plays smoothly on the proview screen before trying to burn. So what is going on? How can I burn a complete AVCHD DVD from multiple files (shots) and have them show smoothly and completely?

Thanks.
Mike

Mike,
How do you know that the burned disk only has the first clip? Could the disk be complete but your player is not working right?

Check the STREAM foldet and see how many clips are there.

Larry

Hi Larry. I figured it out, although I am not sure if I remember how I did it. No, the disk was not complete. For whatever reason, the program would only burn just the first clip. Somehow I was able to blunder my way through things and get a complete program burn.

Nero produces great sound in AVCHD, but as for the program itself, it isn't very intuitive. Being familiar with Pinnacle and Corel, I find I have problems finding things in Nero. Mainly it is just way different, but in many cases, the things I am looking for (going back to retrieve a project) are not on the page that is showing on my screen. You have to go back to a previous screen. Nero is just not all that user friendly. Another example is trimming of clips; much easier to understand with Pinnacle and Corel. And the package of editing tools in Nero is somewhat sparse. But the picture produced and the sound in AVCHD is wonderful.

I wish they would package their manual and include it with the program. I looked online and downloaded the manual, and I have to say, it isn't all that clearly written. The Pinnacle manual is much better done for their program, and they include it with the software.

Now if only I can remember what I did to get all the clips to be included and play smoothly end to end.

Thanks for your response Larry.
Mike

I agree entirely Mike that Nero does suffer from interface confusion. The "good news" is that it is rather easy to get used to, given the limited variety of choices compared to programs like Vegas, Final Cut, etc. And the "best news" is, as you now have witnessed, that it makes gorgeous looking disks, and is way faster than anything else on the market. I actually worte Nero and told them that if they were to properly creare a true NLE and disk authoring prigram like Nero Vision with a more comprehensive and intuitive feature set, that many people would buy it, since their core functions and quality are truly impressive. I, for one, much prefer the look of the video I get from Nero to that I get from programs like Final Cut and Vegas Pro. Pretty awesome considering that you get 8 other superb programs including a full blown Dolby 5.1 AC3 sound editor, an excellent player of Blu Ray, AVCHD, and other disks, etc. for the princely sum of $79.

Larry

Yes I agree. There is much I have yet to learn about this program. Can hardly wait to burn more AVCHD DVDs of footage from my SR11 using Nero and seeing the beautiful results (if I can remember what I did correct). I support your efforts in getting Nero to expand their editing bundle. It sure would be nice it they were to produce some kind of update for us to download.

Thanks Larry.
Mike

Hi, Larry. Can you go through your workflow for making smart rendered AVCHD files (not disks) using the HF100 with Power Director? I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong which is causing the pixelation in the rendered file. Thanks.

Peter,

I'd be glad to, but, I really would like to see a sample clip which you produced which shows pixellation. The player and CPU are more suspect in my experience and I want to see what you are encountering on my own system where I have a solid frame of reference.

Please xfer / email the Produce.m2ts file using gmail.
Thanks.....

Larry

Just to clarify Peter,

You are using a dual core AMD processor introduced in May of 2006. My experience and that of other AVCHD editors / users is that a quadcore is a minumum requirement, and preferably a fast quadcore with a lot of RAM.

My experience with less capable CPUs which try to handle AVCHD is that they stutter, pixelate, and, in some cases, stall entirely when trying to play or edit AVCHD.

I am NOT having the pixelation problem you describe, but seriously question if your hardware is capable of handling the output file you are referring to.

I would thus be glad to continue helping you further, but I want to see what the file actually looks like on a machine I have personal experience with which handles AVCHD using the same Power Director 7 and other software extremely well.

Please email as per my request so I can help you further.

Larry.

Hi Larry, I will send it along when I have some time to create it. The reason I don't think it's a hardware issue is: the AVCHD files I create with Nero/Pixela/and VSX2 (after running the MTS file through Nero) do not have the pixelation when I play them back. This makes me think that my computer is powerful enough to play AVCHD (although not at an ideal frame rate). My computer stutters sometimes on playback, but it never pixelates with those other files as it does with PD.

Since you are not having the pixelation issue with PD, I suspect that I have not configured PD correctly to produce full quality results. I will probably have time tonight to create the clip.

Maybe PD only works for making full quality AVCHD disks as opposed to AVCHD files? I appreciate your help.

Larry, I found an interesting page out of the PD7 manual (see below). According to this, it looks like clips are rendered for 2 seconds before and after a cut/trim. Maybe this is where I'm seeing the pixelation. Also it looks like I won't be able to produce a test file for you since I can only save a file up to 20mb on the mail account, and according to this, all videos under a minute are fully re-rendered if there are any edits. I will test this theory hopefully tonight.


In the following conditions, clips (or portions of clips) must be rendered
during production, and SVRT can therefore not be applied:
• Adding a title or transition effect
• Modifying the color of a video clip
• Audio profile does not match destination production profile
• Modifying the volume of an audio clip
• Merging two video clips (clips within 2 seconds before or after
the merged clips will be rendered)
• Splitting a video clip (clips within 2 seconds before or after the
split will be rendered)
• Trimming a video clip (clips within 2 seconds before or after the
trimmed clip will be rendered)
• If the total duration of the production is less than one minute
and any portion of the video requires rendering, the entire
production will be rendered for efficiency reasons.

Larry, I posted a file on rapidshare:

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

I see pixelation in the grass and sky near the beginning. It seems that PD has tried to group similar pixels together in an effort to reduce the file size.

Hey Larry, how do you make chapters in Nero. The manual from on line says to go to the contents screen and highlight the video title. Does highlight mean to click on it so that you go to your saved project?
And then it says on the (it shows a small movie time placard), click on the "add chapter" button. Where is this placard? I see no add chapter button.

Can you give me an easier method of creating chapters in a project on Nero?

Thanks,
Mike

I posted a second file that does not contain the pixelation of the first file. This file was created by smart-rendering with Nero, and then editing and smart rendering with VSX2. This is the current workflow that I use, and I think it's the best at this point for HF100 AVCHD. You'll notice that there are no jitters at cuts, and there is no pixelation.

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting