Re: C300 Discussion
 

I'm not that sure. At the same price point as the F3, every independent Pro cameraman and TV network wil rather get the Sony instead, as it has better ergonomics, can use AF lenses for run and gun and with a cheap KiPro and S-log you get 14.5 stops (with the new firmware) for more cinematic projects.

Who's Canon targeting with this camera? I don't really get it.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The camera comes with a choice of lens mounts either EOS or PL, they could just have the two versions in that picture.

To have traction against the F3 in the market, the pictures will need to be really impressive

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Yeah, I didn't either, until today.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Well, the XF300 was passed by the BBC and various other networks, mainly based on the quality of the codec (and the lens). I reckon TV studios would see this as a strong contender for dramas, documentaries and other productions. The ability to shoot it straight out of the box, without any external recorders would be seen as a real positive by many (something not possible with the F3).

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Well, after reading the details about the C300 I don't regret buying a F3 at all.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Chris, I meant something more along the lines of a follow focus wheel that could be attached to the camera and used by an operator or AC or detached for remote operation.

Have they provided a way for the operator to control iris on EOS lenses? (Obviously a phone/tablet via wifi is not suitable for this).

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Ok, so we have:

-Canon C300 at $16k. Can shoot 50Mbps but only film-style. SDI out won't get you 444 or more stops.

-Sony F3 at $16k, 35Mbps. Add $2k for a KiPro are you're BBC ready and beyond. You CAN shoot Run and Gun. NDs included. Add S-Log and you get the closest there is to an ALEXA.


No camera is an island but a system. Given than you need plenty of stuff besides the camera body (DSLR/PL lenses, Sachtler, Mattebox+NDs, mics+transmitters...etc), the additional $2K for the KiPro or Pix240 hardly make any difference in the overall amount.

With the C300 you're painted into a corner. The F3 is on the other hand 3 cameras in one. I still don't get it.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

This is my thinking exactly, no one else is doing on-board S35mm recording to a broadcast approved codec anywhere near this pricepoint.

If DR, colour, tonality and highlight handling are on par with an SLOGged F3, then this it will become even more appealing (for the fact that it'll cost a couple of grand less).


But the Canon has LOG recording built in - so we might see 'Alexa-ish' images from it anyway. It's just not a run & gun machine.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I think the telling point is that it is labeled as EOS & designed by EOS employees. There are a lot of good things with this, but I see a lot of other people disappointed like myself.

I kinda feel that the video guys at Canon know video better than the still guys. The fact that there was a XH-G1 / XH-A1; XF 300 / 305 proves that there are some people in Canon that understand the varied needs of video. If you take the best of the EOS cameras & put it in a video camera, I'll be excited. Another video camera in a EOS camera & I'm now just counting down the seconds until Red disappoints me too.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Log over 8 bits? Meh...

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Looks like the prcie will be more - at 20,000 dollars - delivery from end of January.

Peter

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Well, thats how I'm seeing it; it looks to me like Canon is targeting the TV market first (maybe a more cinema orientated camera will be in the next cycle).

External recorders are great in that they bring out the best in the camera (I use a nanoflash all the time), but at the end of the day its one more thing that needs power, more cables, something else to be looking at, something else to go wrong etc etc.

The F3 was crippled, purposely, by its lousy codec. Thats not a problem if you're shooting film, and you have time to mess around with all the paraphernalia hanging off the camera. For TV (and especially for running and gunning) the stronger inbuilt codec will be much appreciated by cameramen.

I reckon it will do well, but more so in TV than in film.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

ISO 640 at 0db, according to Larry Thorpe

(still at Paramount here)

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Alexa's prores 12-bit 330 Mbps is in an entirely different league than the C300's MPEG-2 8-bit 50Mbps.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Of course, but if the DR, colour and tonality from the Canon allow us to get 'Alexa-ish' images (like the SLOGged F3 does. Then that's a great thing.

No one's expecting an Alexa-beater (or even matcher) at this pricepoint.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Good but not that good.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Looks like 12 stops with Canon log.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Now they're talking about 20.000 dollars list price.
What is Canon smoking?

I saw an MX RED One going for 13.500 dollars last week at Reduser.

Still holding out for the Scarlet...

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Thanks Chris for the hard work, hope your having fun.

I think that it may take time to ingest the abilities (or lack of) of this new breed. My initial thoughts are a little dissapointed as this appears to be a camera for a crew of people and I will probably never have that. It appears to target a very small group of potential customers. I am not sure what makes this a historical global announcement, but you would have to ask those that are proficient with a tool of this type to get a proper response.



Chris, How do you feel about this camera ??

Re: C300 Discussion
 

"Hard to choose between this and the Alexa (vincent)"

Sure, a 30fps 8bit 50Mbps pseudo-DSLR VS a 120fps 12bit 4444Prores/ARRIRAW and VERY reliable camera with the best latitude ever seen from a digital unit.

One thing is to be enthusiastic and on the payroll, another is to say such nonsenses. There was no need to make such a silly comparison and descredit yourself at the same time.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I want to see some footage from it before I make any judgements.

I recommend everyone else do the same.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

LOL That is right on the mark.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I wish Canon had seen this as an opportunity to one-up the F3 by recording 10bit internally. Even to MPEG2 50mbit, if it had to be.

That alone would justify the price premium.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I'm sure it's beautiful, and the camera will be able to make amazing images.

But some of the shortcomings are known quantities.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

You can watch Vincent Laforet's short film 'Mobius' shot on the C300 here:


Quite frankly, the image looks superb. And seems to handle what must have been a very contrasty daylight extremely well.

The $20k price tag is genuinely surprising (and disappointing) though. I wonder what the lenses will come in at?

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Hyped as a dream, but delivered as a nightmare. I'm walking toward the ocean......

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Canon has revealed the identity of the "second shooter":

Canon Global : News | News Releases

further to David Heath on page one of this topic
 

i have been wondering if re arranging these color wells into a super pixel that reads out at the 1920 x 1080 is possible on my 5D, which seems to have a lot more pixels in the stills than the video. i wrote magic lantern last night and suggested it as a possible hack.

i don't know a lot about this stuff and could as usual be very wrong. appreciate any thoughts. it might seem off topic but it might be this is whats behind this c300.

aloha
tito

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I fully expect the quality of the pictures to be very good - at the price they had better be!

But for that price I'd expect more. Not just great images when correctly exposed and colour balanced, but with flexibility, the ability to grade etc. That really means RAW, or S-log at the very least, and they need high bitdepths to be effective. And given it's a 4k chip, at this price I'd expect to be able to get the 4k resolution for recording.

Let's see what Red have to offer......

Re: C300 Discussion
 

It will be superior on paper, flawed in execution, and 9 months late.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

WOW!!!

I totally expected to be annoyed by all the fanboys, but it seems almost everyone is extremely disappointed in the C300. Canon's marketing department should be fired for creating all this hype when there is nothing special about the camera. At the least, they should have shown a mockup of the body so people would have had some sense of where they were going. This camera is more like a Red Epic in that it requires a lot of accessories for decent ergonomics; thus, the total package costs far more than just the body.

Their log gamma is not any better than the F3 with Hyper/Cine-gamma because they are limited to how much DR can be squeezed into an 8 bit codec (appx. 11-12 stops).

I also think that Canon really messed up with the price and peoples' desire to use their EF lenses. If people have been accustomed to the low quality and low price of DSLRs, then why would they want to spend over 8 times as much (ie. 7D) just to use EF lenses? Most of these people are very price conscious; so, the $16k seems astronomical to the $1800 of a 7D.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Canon's specs here:

Canon U.S.A. : Professional Imaging Products : EOS C300 PL

Re: C300 Discussion
 

It's hard to tell from this Laforet short, but taking into account how Vimeo compresses stuff, looks like the F3 with S-Log handles better the highlights and has more latitude than the C300. That is specially evident in some of the high contrast scenes in the C300 movie, where there's plenty of noise in the shadows.

That's not surprising considering the C300 appears to be 8bit@50Mbps while the F3 outputs uncompressed RGB at 10 bit through dual link.


At $20k I fail to see how this new Canon C300 can compete with the F3.

Re: further to David Heath on page one of this topic
 

Sorry - but no. It's the fact that the sensor dimensions are exactly 2x 1920x1080 that makes it possible to read it simply and effectively the way they do in the C300. In the cases of DSLRs, the numbers don't work so well - they aren't an exact multiple of 1920x1080. I wrote about such in this topic - http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...ml#post1689657

Typical for a stills sensor might be to do it similarly to how the C300 does it, but need to miss blocks out, so only read the photosites below in bold, deriving one "output pixel" from each block of 16:

G R G R
B G B G

That would be OK if the sensor dimensions were 7680x4320 (4x 1920x1080) - but still sensors are less than that. Hence why the resolution tends to be more like 1200 horizontally - the sensor dimensions are more typically likely to be 4800 horizontally. This then gets scaled up to 1920x1080 for recording. It's easier to scale up than scale down.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

They reckon it will ship on December 1st, for US$9,750.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

ISO 20,000 sounds interesting

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The 8-bit capture and limited frame rates leave me scratching my head. It could be a nice cam for TV production that has a straight-ahead style. It's definitely not made for pushing creative limits.

The new EF-mount Cine primes look nice.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

And RED just announced the Scarlet with 4K recording, RAW, 35mm sensor at 10.000 dollars.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Game changer? Hmm. Well, as was coined on another list,
Today (before the announcement) we bitch, moan and flame.
After, we bitch moan and flame.

I guess he knew what was coming from Canon.
and yes, I will now bitch, moan and flame.

Bitch:
No 4K.
No 1080P@60.
No 4:4:4.
No RAW.
No global shutter

Moan:
50mbps?

Flame
$16K?!!! Maybe if the lens is as good as a Cooke or DP Rouge (yeah, right).

THREE YEARS AGO WHEN ASKED, had it been delivered it would have been a game changer.
Now its a flame maker, and believe me, I hope I am SO WRONG that I am flamed to a cinder.
__________________

Re: C300 Discussion
 

At that price this Canon cinema cam is not really intended for solo shooters, but multiple sales to TV networks and Film outfits.

IMO the price allows Canon dealers to negotiate for sales in various quantities, 4 or 5 or more will easily come at below 10K.

I wonder if RED has room to move like that .. but then Scarlet is intended to sell as one off sales.

Cheers.