Re: C300 Discussion
 

My buddy Jeremiah was there, and he said the footage was fantastic.

heath

Re: C300 Discussion
 

For that kinda bread, it better look good - then drive you home afterwards.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I don't know you guys...

I left film school 20 years ago and wanted to buy a broadcast quality camera. The starting point and only option was a Sony betacam (or film). I think it was around 70k. I couldn't even think of buying one. And never mind the cost of the decks to edit tapes (yes... big friggin' coffee table sized tapes).

I just looked at my receipt from June of 2006 for an XLH1 at 12k pus change... and yet I happily paid that. The camera has worked well for over 5 years, and still does what I need for most of my clients...

Then the 5d comes along in june 2009 at 3.5k for the body. 2 1/2 years and 17,000 clips later. I still love this camera. A few drawvbacks and weaknesses... sure but a ground-breaking camera, and nothings perfect.

Yesterday I shot for the first time with a Red Epic... I have a chance over the next couple of weeks to shoot some more... It is freaking awesome. Fortunately I didn't have to buy it... about the price of the Betacam when you add the necessities...

My point... We should be dancing for joy to have so many great, affordable options. This is a phenomenal time to be a film-maker.

If you don't like it, don't buy it... buy or rent something else, and wait for the next round... it'll be here soon enough...

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Well, more like $14k in practise for a Canon AI package.

Film & Digital Times has an article, with comments by people who have shot with the C300.

http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/canon-c300/

Re: C300 Discussion
 

It's been a while since i've been on dvinfo, about time to get back in.

I'm very surprised by the reaction, how bad it's been. Reading through the info on canons site (very technical and very comprehensive) i think they've done a stellar job, look:

- it's 1080p of *real* pixels. (4 pixels sampled down to one). The F3 aliases and moires, this isn't supposed to
- The 8bit can hold the log information for 12bits, not quite RAW but for a file size/file info tradeoff this is pretty good for 99% of situations
- 50mbs of 4:2:2 is actually pretty good. It does depend on how good their compression is. The sony 35mbs XDCAM compression is really pretty good. So this could be better than that
- The form factor actually reads as being quite balanced and well thought out

I think it could be an excellent work horse camera and a real contender.

The only thing so far i don't like about it is that the mount distance is SLR ranges. Where as the F3/FS100 have the shorter flange distance that allows you to adapt rangefinder and all sorts of weird and wonderful vintage glass (which i have drawers of). So for me that's a downside.

I am a bit of a sony fanboy as i have invested in the NEX stills at the expensive of my canon gear. The FS100/F3 are the obvious choices but would like something in-between them. The FS100 doesn't have log or 10bit out - that's my main issue with that.

But as we decide what to get next, it's a contender.

Obviously i want to see real world original footage from all of the contenders but with the 4k -> 1080p downsample this should produce stellar images.

I have no interest in working at 4k to be honest. Too much overhead. None of the delivery requirements are 4k anyway. Heck features were happily shot with the 720p varicam not so long ago!

cheers
paul

Re: C300 Discussion
 

This camera is very interesting to me and I too am surprised that so many have written it off - so soon (less than 24hrs!)

Sure, it's out of my price range (thankfully - so that's one decision I don't have to agonise over!) but what interests me most of all is what video related features MIGHT (and I stress might) see their way into a relatively attainable Canon 5DMkIII when that eventually appears.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I don't think that's true. 8 bit is more than enough for general acquisition - but not if you want to get heavily into extensive grading in post. You can squeeze a 12 bit scene into a 8 bit recording (by compressing highlights and lowlights) but it's a one way process - once it's done, it's done. Record the full 12 bit resolution and you have the option of later deciding exactly how you want the transfer charecteristic to be.
The codec is a full broadcast codec for general television acquisition. That's as defined by the EBU. That is NOT to say it can't be better - and the argument is that for such as feature film work, with the desirability of very extensive post grading you are not talking about "general acquisition".

If you're working on a broadcast show with pretty tight turn round, this codec is fine. Something like RAW is likely to simply add too many delays in the workflow. Ideally, I'd like to have the option of both in a camera like this.
Maybe - but a camera may be expected to last a number of years. Who's to say things won't change within the lifetime of the camera? And even if no requirement to deliver in 4k, it gives a lot of room for manoeuvre, especially with such as green screen etc, even post panning/zooming.

At the end of the day it's a question of price/performance. This camera may be just what some people want - but the feeling is it's a lot of money. Equally, others may be happy with the price, but expect to get more for the money. Cue Red comparisons..... :-)

Maybe we need to see what the street price settles at?

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Well, well, well....I woke up early....I can't get these pictures out of my head. WOW! The footage looked extremely good on all 4 films we saw. The DPs shot them in ISOs between 500 and 4000! They mostly agreed that the camera's ASA was around 500-600...They all mentioned fondly about how many set ups they did per day and how little light they used. I was surrounded by DPs (ASC,SOC,etc) and all seemed to really like the colors the camera put out. After the screenings & speeches, we moved to 2 large sound stages where Canon had set out the cameras naked or completely rigged out with various manufacturer's accessories. You can shoot footage on a low-lit set with various set ups and, at another station, go through the post process. For the people coming later today & tomorrow, it will be quite a presentation and you won't be disappointed.

As for some of the posters not happy with what they have been reading so far (you'd be happier if you saw the footage projected on a very large screen)....the price is $20K LIST, so the map or street price will be less (we should know that soon). I don't think Canon ever had any intention of putting out a $5000 camera. It was more like taking on the F3 but doing it better(Full camera remote control wirelessly through your iPad)....again, the colors just looked better than the Sony look and I think you can link that to the 4K sensor. As for auto focus, no one shoots a narrative piece with auto focus so I'm not sure why the complaints. This camera, like the 5D,7D, etc, are not for run & gun, sports, etc...its for set up shots.

More thoughts from the people who see it & the shooters who worked with it will come out in the following days. I believe this camera will do quite well....and this is just the first 2!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

ps- C300 delivery latter part of Jan., C300PL in March

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Oh, did happen to say the footage really looked AMAZING!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: C300 Discussion
 

You've got to love dvinfo. Martin Scorcese is really excited about
This camera, but
Wedding videographers are 'disappointed'.
Great to see canon throwing their
Hat in the motion picture ring.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

To the tune of Bohemian Rhapsody

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The reason many are disapointed is not because it may or not be a fantastic ground breaking camera it may well be.

The camera does look like a great new entry into the world of professional film makers who have enough money to cover it.

The truth is most of us could probably stretch to it and max out a few credit cards and maybe miss a few mortgage payments. Anyway my idea of stretching to the limits is about £6000.

We all know a camera can be made with a good fixed lens for about £4000 We all know a stills camera can make a film camera with a NICE sensor for about £600.

We know if you take the nice lens away from the £4000 camera you have an even cheaper camera So we all understand that putting a 35mm sensor in a HD camera can't be that hard and can be done cheaply. We know Sony did this with their FS100 with no ND filters 8bit out one card box and also the FS100 did this with 8 bit out and a small sensor that neither fitted 16mm 2/3 or 35mm.

So the expectation was that logically someone could make a camera with 10 bit out ND filters with an S35mm sensor. Or even a sensor that could use 16mm or large sensor that could use stills lenses for about £4000 to £6000 price range

That was what I hoped was meant by something groundbreaking And although the C300 may very well be groundbreaking its out of my league as I can't afford it and even if I did stretch the limits I'd probably end up in the divorce courts with one very selfish *********** cited as the reason.

Did Canon know that people like me were hoping and expectations boosted to over excite levels so that some may give in and buy it even if they can't afford to. I guess one advantage is those who would have bought the Red or the F3 af100 fs100 have all been on hold waiting for Canons announcement so denying the other manufacturers sales. But meanwhile I and others have gone without a camera and waited for what? I think Canon should have been more forthcoming about who the camera was aimed at IE the F3 crowd.

So yes while it may be extraordinary it still keeps me out of the professional arena and the status quo remains unchanged. If I now buy an EX1 I know if I make a film I will be competing against those who will be using the C300 and unfortunatly in real world I will still be at a disadvantage. Many times on low budgets the look of a camera will determine how people will see it. That is why the camera makers have their professional division and consumer one. They know it.. I know it and thats why a price premium is paid.

So it's not so much is the camera good or bad its more the marketing strategy used.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

It's not always the camera that's the limitation, in fact that's the easy bit.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Well looking at it logically

10 bit out Great for post
Large sensor Great for creating the film look and fewer lights
ND filters Great for getting a nice open iris for shallow depth of field

I guess you can make great films and use workarounds for cameras that don't have the above like

8bit out Make sure you need minimum colour correction
Small sensor Use a letus adapter
ND filters Use a mattebox

So really you can make great films without a camera that has ND filters Large sensor or only 8 bit. However didnt we have the disagreement where the letus cuts down the resolution etc. Oh well lets move on.

You could also expect a manufacturer to be able to build what the consumer wants.

Anyway all the negatives aside. I'm sure many of us are disapointed and had hoped for a nice printer.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Let's hope the good news turns out to be the sensor. From pricing Canon thinks it's best in class. It's a novel design that should be significantly sharper and have few artifacts than the F3. Do we know if the camera has an anti-aliasing filter? If it does it's likely considerably weaker than the F3.

The develop money apparently went to the sensor and form factor. With the electronic package being from the XF300 class. The question I guess is how well the sensor is expressed in the bit size and color space. On paper Canon could of made us pay more attention to the sensor with an increased file size. But they didn't want to spend the money to do that. I think if it went beyond 4:2:2 8 bit we would have more of a wait and see attitude.

But we assume that the major determinant of final quality if the compression and file size. While in fact there are still room for substantial improvement in capture.

I doubt Red has the ability to buy a sensor compared to the best Canon and Sony can make.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

But how do you announce a new product?

If you just come out of the blue with "bang! look at these specs!" there'll be complaints of "but I only just got the xyz! why couldn't I have been given warning!" - if you announce "expect a new camera in 9 months time!" it gives your competitors time to get their act together with an effective counter before you get anything actually on sale. (As Sony did very effectively against the AF100.)

In that respect, a preliminary announcement a month or so before full details may be best marketing policy.

Whatever anybody thinks of the C300, I think the language used ("historic announcement" etc) was way over the top. It might have got attention this time round - I'm not sure it was clever in the long term.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Thank you Brian. And for your Many sensible contributions to this discussion.

Canon always gave the impression this was going to be a professional camera, so no surprise to see it priced As such. Those who talked themselves into believing they were going to get an alexa at a prosumer pricepoint have only themselves to blame.

You can't blame canon for the delusions across the blgosphere.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

If you have the best glass but then later compress to a lower jpg, your glass advantage goes away.

Let's say Canon's new C300 sensor is one of the best, better than the one on the F3. But then again, if its output is cut down to 8bit 50Mbps, while the F3 gives you uncompressed RGB 444 at 10 bit though dual link SDI, guess which camera will have more latitude, less artifacts and better color reproduction.

That's the biggest let down of the C300. An 8bit camera doesn't make much sense these days, specially at a $20k price point.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Yes, there are good feature films were made using 8 bit VX1000 mini DV cameras that received worldwide distribution. There are so many options now that you can use a wide range of cameras. I believe I mentioned that "Monsters" was shot using the 8 bit internal codec. The camera itself is only a small part, how good film will be is 80% decided before a frame is shot on the basis of the script, the cast and the crew.

You can shoot a good or even a great film with the C300 and there are a number of other S35mm sensor cameras that will allow you to do the same. You could record the 10 bit HD SDI output if you want.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

How do you announce a new product?

Well
1) Wait until you're ready to launch then announce it
2) Pick your target audience to aim it at if you want to create an atmosphere of suspense.

I think what is clear is YES people were expecting a camera for about £4 to £7000 ish WHY Because the blurb said

Historic announcement... Ground breaking.... Blah Blah

The S35mm market has already been established and so we expected something historic and ground breaking and the marketing was seemingly aimed at all of us. So as the market already established with a clear king IE the Alexa and everyones level catered for all the way down through to the consumer it would have to be something that would change everything and as personally I couldn't see much they could do that would change everything as the F3 pretty much takes care of the lot My conclusion was that to be historic and groundbreaking it would have to mean it does what a camera like the F3 can do but at a FS100 price and logically why not Why could this not be done.

However mine and others conclusions although I think logical were fatally flawed as we were blindsided by a marketing campaign that effectively wasn't groundbreaking or historic it was actually an F3 competitor and while you can use the word historic in the context that Canon are new to the video camera sensor and new to this price point I dont think any of us consumers would see it that way. I also don't believe it is groundbreaking although it may be groundbreaking for canon.

However that aside I'm sure it is a great camera and will do well in the market Just that I am a little disapointed at the hopes I had built up and I'm not seeking to blame Canon for their marketing strategy as I know it's business. I do think that maybe marketing campaigns like this should have laws regulating the way a launch is advertised and the expectations it builds in those who dont have the down to earth business acumen to not see past it. I would imagine some have held off shooting and without doubt many have not bought cameras. This should be adressed for manufacturers as wll as consumers who may have been fooled regardless if it's percieved as their own fault by some.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Yep I though Monsters was a terrific achievement and bought the DVD I was impressed with the use of the EX1 and letus adapter on that film.I think it definately had its moment in time and value for indie film makers to take inspiration from. Did I think the quality of it matched an Alexa or an F3? Nope. There are a few films that have achieved success without using pro cameras all have been lucky and made something that hadn't been done like using a cheap video camera that simulated the home movie being made. Would I like to see the next James Bond film done on one of these? Would I go and watch it? Err no.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I imagine the successful films you're discussing have gone through development hell, putting deals together and various other hurtles. If you can do that successfully, the funds will come for a high end camera, but to get to that stage you have to prove yourself and a 8 bit camera can make a film that's both profitable and allows a film maker to prove themselves.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

If people stopped shooting because of a new camera announcement then more fool them.

And anyway, as Brian pointed out, camera specs are largely meaningless to film goers, who are more interested in the script etc.

The fact is a lot of folks on this thread allowed themselves to get carried away with ever more ludicrous speculation. And you can't blame canon for that.

This is canons initial foray into motion picture cameras, many more will follow. In the meantime there are many fantastic cheaper options around.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Dom it's not really about the spec's, cheaper DSLR's are great but they are a pain to use and focus accurately I think most of us was just hoping for an affordable half decent replacement for the DSLR. Priced competitively Canon would have owned the market but they are using old marketing/business models - I don't want 4k, I just want a decent S35 1080P camera I can afford.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Perhaps 12 is optimistic but certainly 10+ bits of linear in 8 in no problem. It's just using those 8 bits in the right places. The most you'd get out of HDMI would be 10 anyway.

As you point out the camera might be upgradable in the future too.

cheers
paul

Re: C300 Discussion
 

To answer your first part Independent is what it is and only a lucky few get production companies large enough for a big budget. To make your breakthrough film I think you'd be lucky to raise £250,000 through investors. The budget I'm looking at for my project could be as low as £60,000 no room there for an Alexa or even a C300.. Anyway my hope was to buy one of these new cameras and run numerous tests of my own before I take on board a DP. I know many DP's prefer to rent and that's fine Myself I like to familiarise myself with what the camera can do and it works Just in case you make a mistake when filming that means its all unusable or not the way you want it.

If I were to make a film using an 8 bit out I know I'd regret it in post and colour correction. If you want to use monsters as an example, fine. Good example.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

My pal called me last night and gave me the low-down, said it feels great, footage looks fantastic and he said it was the camera we wanted 10 years ago. And he doesn't throw words like that around too often -- he's a long-time video and film guy who has been waiting for something to come along that didn't cost $1800 a day to rent, or $100,000+ to buy.

It is pricey, but very interesting. I don't know, but the proof is always in the pudding. Both are priced pretty close, both have S35 sensors, etc., but the price goes up esp. once you add accessories to Scarlet, which you have to do.

Heath

Re: C300 Discussion
 

If you're director, unless you're also the DP, I'd leave the finer details of the camera to the DP, that's their job. With the right camera you can pretty much nail the look in camera, rather than getting into heavy colour correction in post, that's what a good DP can do with the camera's internal menus. The post is then just doing the fine grading tweeks.

Red's new Scarlet camera is S35 rather 2/3", so really comes to deciding work flows etc.rather than the sensor size in this case.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Scarlet is S35. What really kills me about the Canon is no 1080/60p. For low key shooting (no extended shooting), the 14k package from RED works just fine... I have EF glass to throw on it already so thats a zero cost. Scarlet it is for me... Working on getting my finances in order already....

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Whoops, I will correct that, thanks! But here's the difference between RED and Canon... Canon has a better supply chain than RED, which only means that they'll deliver more, quicker. I'm not talking about overall quality, just speed and number.

heath

Re: C300 Discussion
 

One more thing to note... Canon has never made a camera like this (and apparently they have a 4K lens that costs $45,000), so I don't think they're marketing it to their usual customer base, who use the XF100, etc. I think they're aiming for major Hollywood productions, hence Scorsese at the event.

Heath

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The right camera to do that with effectively costs a lot of money. You're better to shoot flat and get the grade you want in post in my opinion.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Although camera specs are meaningless to film goers it doesn't mean to say they wouldn't recognise something shot on a lessor camera. They would. In fact that is the reason why manufacturers have more expensive options. If that wasn't the case everyone would be making movies on their cell phone

Maybe they did but I don't believe the majority of speculation was ludicrous in fact most of it was accurate. What was wrong was the price point which Canon led people to believe would be more affordable because they targeted all consumers. Also if this was an ad campaign run on TV it would never be allowed as it would be misleading in my opinion.

Yeah all crippled

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The FS 100 has a surprising number of levels to set each colour in the camera and other adjustments in its menus. Of course, you do need a good monitor and a means of setting your exposure accurately, which is a requirement with any video camera shooting a feature film.

However, if you're doing any strong "looks" you do need to keep to them and you can't change your mind afterwards. In practise this isn't a huge deal, since you can see what you're getting live on set and you can see if everything is working.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Problem is if you change your mind and I do frequently. :)

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I wouldn't buy an FS100 it doesn't have any ND filters only 8bit out issues with panning arghh form factor cant have the camera at head height One card slot. awful.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I have to agree with Heath on Canon's approach on this camera. I'm a dealer and sell the other Canon video cameras - but to my surprise, I just learned that Canon isn't even giving dealers like myself access to this camera. So I'm very confused seeing as this was the type of camera I've been waiting for Canon to offer - and now I can't even resell it.

Twice in one day I see two cameras announced that need the support of knowledgeable local dealers - and neither are available to them. And don't even get me started on Apple...

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services

Re: C300 Discussion
 

But then late last night I bought a Scarlet
Am I happy?
YES I'M HAPPY!
Is he happy?
YES HE'S HAPPY!
Happy happy happy happy happeeeeeeee!
JimJannard please deliver it soooon!

Re: C300 Discussion
 

There's a saying about the carpenter who blames his tools... are you familiar with it?

Re: C300 Discussion
 

When grading in post you can't keep changing your mind either, if you don't have a vision of the film as a whole you wouldn't have the constancy that you need on a feature film.