5D mk II vs 7D
 

My opinions may be biased since I never bought a digital camera until the original 5D came out. As a former Hasselblad user and Canon film user, I did not want to deal with a crop sensor.

As a 5D mk II owner, I will buy a 7D just for the extra reach. Since the 5D uses only every 3rd line for video and dumps the rest, I would expect the 7D video to acceptable.

The second processor, extra FPS, improved focusing and affordability make this purchase a nobrainer. With these two cameras and a XH-A1, I should have all the bases covered.

I could part with my original 5D tho, I quess!

You should think this question from a "new customer" perspective. What incitement does the new customer have to buy the 5DmkII, if the 7D (on paper) out performs it? The dual DIGIC4? I'm calling BS on that one. "Location,location,location?" NO! "Firmware,firmware,firmware!" We are used to updates. We expect them, we rely on them.

I mean, this does not make any sense. More options for less, while on the same time your selling less options for more?! --WTF!--

5D mk II vs 7D
 

My opinions may be biased since I never bought a digital camera until the original 5D came out. As a former Hasselblad user and Canon film user, I did not want to deal with a crop sensor.

As a 5D mk II owner, I will buy a 7D just for the extra reach. Since the 5D uses only every 3rd line for video and dumps the rest, I would expect the 7D video to acceptable.

The second processor, extra FPS, improved focusing and affordability make this purchase a nobrainer. With these two cameras and a XH-A1, I should have all the bases covered.

I could part with my original 5D tho, I quess!

Hi Jay, selling your original 5D should go a long way toward paying for a 7D.

The same could be asked why didn't they enable full manual settings in video mode right off the bat on the 5D2, and had to release a firmware update to address this isssue?

I suspect Canon may have underestimated the interest in the video capabilities of the camera in the beginning.

One reason I've seen given is that Digic 4 may not support the frame rate; however, the 7D has the same processor (albeit 2 of them) and I don't see why a firmware couldn't implement these other modes. Besides, wouldn't 30p require more processing than 24p? After all, 24 fps represent a full 20% reduction in the number of frames to be captured and processed compared to 30.

Nick

This is what Canon is expecting. I had enough. I will sell off my 5DMkII and get a proper video cam. Its just too much hassle with the un-video ergonomics, you have to spend a fortune in order to make it at least a little suitable for video shooting and then you still stuck with a format and frame rate used nowhere in the video production. Processing, then quality not good, eh...

I believe that Canon etc offered the HD option originally for news stills photographers to meet the demands of news organisations like Reuters to shot video for their web pages without also sending out a video crew, which is why the cameras came out with only 30p and the auto controls.

The demand from film makers seems to have been an unexpected market, so these first generation cameras may not have the flexibility built in to be upgraded as quickly as people want.

Brian, to a T you have described it exactly the way I heard it too.

As a hardcore photographer, and someone who owns a 5D2 among other bodies, I'm not so sure. Here's a couple of examples from the spec sheet:

Now maybe that's done with only software, but I doubt it.

Hmmm... Not sure but I think my 5D2 has only 9 points, only ONE of which is cross type. Somehow I doubt that's just a software improvement.

Anyway, I absolutely love my 5D2, and as primarily a photographer, I'd never give up my FF just because of the wide angles. Not to say I wouldn't own a cropped body as a second, I would, and I do right now, so the 7D is actually looking mighty impressive to me at this point.

Bryan, this only indicates their marketing and R&D folks were sitting in a heavily sealed vault all the time and followed no forums in the past 2-3 years, when all talking was about how to make the flat video looks more alive with various tricks. Redrock, Letus and let me not list all the makers of little black boxes that ripped millions of bucks from the wallets of those who wanted to use their Canon still lenses for better DOF. Canon guys never noticed that? Hmm, hard to believe. And excuse moi... I bend over in front of mighty Reuters, but how many bloody news photographers do they have (let alone all of them use Nikon)? is that A market? DA market??
The so called film makers market today is rapidly growing as no one wants to shoot video-ish looking videos anymore. Not even a wedding videographer. Now the borderline between amateur and pro is not the beach panning style anymore but the existence or lack of DOF and the PQ that only a good lens can deliver.

I'm in the same boat. I really enjoy my 5D Mk. II primarily for taking photos, and I'm keeping it -- and I'm looking for a way to justify buying the EF 14mm f/2.8 L II rectilinear for it. And it looks like I'll be a 7D customer as well... all I need now is a fatter wallet.

Pure Good. I've had FD and EF versions, priceless. The FD L version was so smooth and solid...

T

Or we need the Administration to authorize a clunker buyout for video/photo gear. I got an FX1 with a bad firewire port I would trade....

Anybody see any information on file size and file size limits? I'm sure hoping I can record a longer sequence than 12-14 minutes or this all this new features are going to mean squat.

I ordered one today and would sell my GH1 which is my B cam, if I thought the file size limitation had been worked out. Hope I missed it, but haven't read anything about it so far.

Will be disappointed if the first reports of no manual audio settings are true.
Will also be disappointed if I can't record 30-60 minutes or more for one file.
Am already disappointed that the LCD is fixed.

Keeping my fingers crossed that there are more video settings to what they announced, but knowing Canon, I won't hold my breath.

Have the donations started to get T Hudson a 7D?

It is still 12min or 4G for Hi Def basically

T

How short sighted.

Just spent some more time on the Canon specs and I am not feeling full HDMI live out either.

Still not the complete package. Maybe Nikon will bring it.

I suspect stills camera manufacturers tend not to hang around video and film making forums. Quality film making is more than having a shallow DOF, some of the greatest films have a deep depth of field and a film's requirements may demand anything from a 1/3" to an IMAX camera.

If you're selling what is supposed to be a professional still camera system it is a market. Their demands have pushed the manufacture of fast telephoto lenses and other developments. The stills camera manufacturers will have seen that newspapers would have the same need for their web sites. Canon and Nikon are in competition and high end non-professionals also love having that pro kit, so increasing the production run.

People should bear in mind that most video cameras rarely, if ever have a 35mm adapter fitted.

You should think of this question from a "not a video person" perspective. These are still cameras, sold primarily and in greatest volume to still photographers. There are plenty of people who would choose the 5D over the 7D simply because of the full frame sensor, and who don't really care about the video differences. I see the 5D and 7D relationship to be more like that of the 1D and 1Ds - which one you buy depends on what type of shooting you do.

Ok, but by the same token if it's a simple software issue why not enable the additional framerates when they released the manual control firmware update?

It sounds logical to me, but I'm not a video engineer. It could be that it's not simply a question of processing power but of something in the nature of the hardware itself. I think you're right that they were caught off guard by the popularity of the video features. To me it seems plausible that there is some sort of hardware clock that regulates the rate at which data is read out from the sensor - if they weren't anticipating the demand for multiple or specific frame rates they might not have worried about that at design time because it had little or no bearing on the camera's primary use for still photography.

I don't agree that the vast majority of users for this camera are photographers.

With all due respect, please show we another DSRL camera that didn't have HD video features and cost over $2500 that was sold out for 9 solid months. Nov-Sept here in the states. They are still hard to get.

I do not have any knowledge of the percentage of 5D mkII users whom bought this camera for HD purposes as their primary usage. However, my gut feeling is that there are as many video people using this camera as photographers.

My opinion is subjective. More a gut feeling. Does anyone have any objective information to shed light on this?

Sorry Jim, but I'll have to disagree with you.

I don't think the photographer to videographer ratio is anywhere near 50% for the 5D Mk. II. I think it's closer to 20% video, and that's being generous. But, like you, it's just a gut feeling I have. I'm unaware of any firm statistics.

The first 5D. The original 5D. $3300 and impossible to get.

I was at the Portland Historic Races a couple of months ago, and the 5D2 was very popular. I saw a guy with a photo pass on the other side of the fence with one. I talked to a couple with another, and they were curious about my setup. I saw about three more 5D2 neck straps in the crowd. I didn't see any single model of DSLR that was as popular.

As far as I could tell, I was the only one shooting video - at least I was the only one crazy enough to lug a tripod, shoulder rig and microphone around the track. :)

Of the 56 teams to compete in the 48 Hour Film Festival in Portland, only two teams used the 5D2 to my knowledge. (Hi Andy Batt. You guys were robbed. ;) )

Were they impossible to get for 9 months?

They were impossible to get for two years!

Don't know if anyone would have those statistics. Best way I can think of to get some indication is to look at what's online...

A search for '5DmkII' on Vimeo returns 1000 videos, going back about a year.

A similar search on youtube shows just over 1600 videos.

I'm assuming there's some crossover between the two sites. I'm guessing most users have multiple videos posted. If we assume an average of 3-4 per person we're probably looking at ~500 users.

The Flickr camera finder for the 5DmkII shows 1,986 users uploading 39,433 photos... yesterday.

I agree with you here, Chris. I'd put it closer to 5-10%. But I think video caused a *huge* increase in sales from photographers. The other features, too.

OK, here I kindly disagree with you. The 5D1 did set sales records, but not the kind Canon likes. Records for how fast the price dropped, how many incentives were offered to move it from the shelves, and how steep the rebates were. Very few people paid the full $3,300; vendors dropped to $3,000 the first month it hit the shelves. Then came more price reductions later, and a huge $700 rebate. Dell had a promotion to get one for $2,050 after rebates, and B&H was $2,150 for a while. Refurbs were even lower.

I think Canon overestimated the 5D1 market, and manufactured too many units. They cut back on production for the 5D2, having learned their lesson from the 5D1 failure. But being the first Canon DSLR with video (and first FF35 and first 1080p) caused an unexpected explosion in sales.

I'm with you, I bet the ratio is more like 100:1 for folks who would say primarily for photos vs. primarily for video. This thing is probably owned by every pro photojournalist and wedding photographer shooting canon, plus so many other photogs. There's no doubt in mind my at all, this thing is PRIMARILY a stills camera, for god's sake the thing shoots 21mp RAW full frame stills with great ISO performance... It's a sick camera no doubt, video is just a bonus for a lot of us, heh.

Does this mean the cam has been designed for those who gonna shoot for huge poster prints in dark environment?

There is one thing no one came up with yet. 5DM2 is the first 1080p file based solid state recording HD camera that can natively use any Canon type SLR lens. Any other one requires expensive additional equipment for the same result.
This is the big deal about 5DM2, this is why it is exciting for video makers. The same thing with enabled controls and a video cam form factor would be a killer in the "normal" videocam market. That may come soon from Canon. Or Nikon might enter videocam market...why not?

Has anyone heard any word from Canon on a firmware upgrade that will allow the variable frame rates as the 7D does ???

I personally emailed Canon to voice my frustrations, and I hope everyone else (5D Mark II owners) are doing the same !!!!!

Thoughts ???

Yes. Chuck Westfall, acting in official capacity for Canon, made the following official statement today at 5:16 PM PDT on a different forum when asked about 24p for the 5D2:

"I can't comment on Canon's future plans or products, however Canon is always listening to its customers. Thanks!"

Of course, that was probably not the answer you were looking for. :)

That was about as helpful as if he'd have replied: "Hi, my name is Chuck." (sigh)

So I guess we'll just have to wait yet another long period of time before we know for sure.
Sounds like most on here are speculating that there will NOT be an available upgrade option for the 5D Mark II to have adjustable frame rates for video recording.

I've always been a Canon customer. Sad day if they do not update the firmware!

Petition for adjustable framerate.
 

Lets do another petition to Canon for adjustable framerate upgrade. I am sure they will listen. If not at least we tried. Guess how we got Canon to give us manual control?

Ahem! anyone would like to take the lead?

We have to convince Phil Bloom about this leadership. He has got the credit for being taken seriously.

"I can't comment on Canon's future plans or products, however Canon is always listening to its customers. Thanks!"

Didn't we get a similar ambiguous comment from one of the Canon guys shortly before the firmware update in June?



I bought the 5D2 because I wanted the kind of high quality, short DoF, low light capabilities I saw in the EX1 and EX3 with the Letus, but simply couldn't afford it. I couldn't afford the camera, lenses, lens adapters and SXS cards which altogether came to a lot more than the 5D2. When I discovered the 5D2 and the sheer quality of the pics for the price I was over the moon.
I've been using it now for 8 months and I still love it to bits, for stills for my work and even more so for the video quality.

I will be showing my ignorance here, but since you're all pretty decent people I don't mind. I can't actually tell the difference between 30p and 25p when I watch it. I'll have to take on trust that it's better.
I see great quality images as being more than that, it's about lighting, subject and angles etc etc and although the price of the 7D looks OK (although, as Phil says, not THAT brilliant in the UK) and I would consider it as a second cam for the reach, I don't feel cheated in any way that Canon have these features on the new camera. Top and tail is, my 5D2 is ace, and the 7D doesn't change that for me.

Avey

The 5D, and now the 5DII, have been hugely successful products for Canon. Where do you get your information? Why do you think Canon is constantly struggling to keep camera bodies and 'L' lenses in stock?
Attend any trade show relating to photography or video and see for yourself.

We got manual control because we purchased non-canon lenses. Without a financial penalty for canon we may not get 24p.
Canon would be smart to give us 24p. They are often not smart.

Like some others on here, I've also read that Canon developed video capability for the 5D MKII as a response to Associated Press and Reuters wanting their photographers to also be able to shoot video (thus they avoid paying for a second person on the crew). In fact, I know a newspaper feature writer/photographer who uses the camera in just that manner--primarily for stills but he does an occasional video shoot.

One thing I've learned about equipment over many years is that it is what it is--never buy anything that's not the way you want it when you buy it. The changes you want almost never happen. If you want 24p, you have to buy a camera that shoots 24p. Buying a camera that doesn't when you want it and assuming there will be a software upgrade that will do it is putting way too much faith in the corporate world, in my opinion.

As an example, look at the XH A1--great camera for the money and I love it. I would love it more if one of those programmable buttons on the side would turn on and off the OIS so I wouldn't have to go into the menu every time I put the camera on or take it off the tripod. Should be a firmware upgrade, right? Wrong. The XH A1s model gives you that feature but they didn't put up something for me to download to make my camera do that. I don't know if they could or not. But, I didn't buy that camera thinking that would ever happen. I just assumed it probably never would happen. I would have been incredibly surprised if it had.

It's similar to commercial real estate salesmen. Over many years of renting offices and studios in commercial buildings around the area, there's one thing I learned: they lie. "We're gonna have a restaurant on the top floor...we're putting in new elevators...we're gonna remodel the whole building exterior...we're gonna have a shared conference room with computers and free wifi...we're gonna rebuild all the bathrooms..." and on and on. It never happens. You rent space based on what it is, not on what they say they will do, because they never follow through.

Also, if shooting 24p is the holy grail and you must have it, check out Graham Nattress' effects and/or Magic Bullet. The 5D MKII has been used on more than one feature film as a secondary camera, and they treated the footage in post to do the 24p thing. I've seen some good looking footage from Nattress' effects, and they're cheap. About a hundred bucks and you get the 24p look. If I could afford a 5D MKII, I'd buy one. To me shooting 30 frames per second is a perfectly good tradeoff for that big chip. I prefer 24 fps for the work I do, but it's not critical, just a preference, sort of in the category of I do so because I can. If I couldn't, nobody who sees my final products would ever know the difference. Look at all those documentaries shot for years with the old venerable PD150, and even feature films with early Digibeta cameras, all of which only did 30 fps. All my stuff ends up on the web and 24 is less than 30 so I save a bit of data in the pipeline and I don't have to deinterlace, so I like it. But if I had a 5D MKII I could live without it easily.

As a matter of minor interest, the reporter guy I know with the 5DMKII wants an XH A1 for shooting video. For him, the shallow depth of field is not worth the tradeoff from a dedicated video camera. It's all in what you do and what you want.

Looks like this clarifies our question...

Dear Billy Griffin:

Thank you for writing to us regarding your 5D Mark II. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

We are always looking to improve our cameras through firmware updates whenever possible, but right now I have no reason to believe that frame-rate control will be added to the 5D Mark II through firmware or hardware updates. With that said, Canon doesn't announce firmware updates until we are ready to make them available to the public, so I don't know what updates we have in development.

I hope that helps, but please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your Canon equipment.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Nick
Technical Support Representative

The only thing clarified is that we won't hear anything official about any firmware release until it is ready to be downloaded - if ever. The "I have no reason to believe" line is just another way of saying that the 5D Mark II is being sold based on its current specs, period.

It's not as though Canon is having any difficulty selling 5D2's at the moment. I had a difficult time procuring one just recently, and the camera has been out for approximately a year.