I was only talking about the 5D1, not their other bodies or L lenses.

My own two eyes. I followed the price and availability closely because I planned to buy one. The used 5D I got was from a friend who paid $1,750 for it brand new. I didn't print out the rebates or the B&H cart, but let me see if I can go back after the fact and substantiate any of my claims with a few Google searches...

* August 2005, list price announced at $3,300:

Canon EOS 5D Review: 2. Specifications: Digital Photography Review

* October 1, Canon 5D first hits the shelves for $3,200 and $3,300 at B&H, J&R, Amazon:

Sep, Oct 2005: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com

* December 2005, price dropped to $2999 at B&H and most retailers

Amazon has it for $2999: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review

* December 2005: Brick and Mortar stores dropped to $3050, reported slow sales:

Canon 5d sales slow....... - Canon Digital Photography Forums

Adray Camera is another big store that couldn't move them.

* April 2006: $300 rebate

NEWS! - Canon: Rebates on Rebel XT, 5D and more

(This one lasted until July.)

* October 2006: $600 (!) rebate

http://www.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/Pro...Form_Oct06.pdf

* October 2007: $2,200 (!) at Adorama. $1800 after Pixma rebate+sale

Sep, Oct 2007: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com

You could combine it with the Pixma printer rebate, then sell the printer, for a final price of $1800 on the 5D.

* July 2008: $1800 (!!) after instant rebate at J&R, Adorama, and Amazon.

Jul, Aug 2008: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com

That was in the face of the "official" MSRP that dropped from $3,300 to $2,500:

Canon EOS 5D Digital SLR

EDIT: Roger Cicala operates a large rental house (lensrentals.com). Today he said:
"...I can't give you Canon's sales figures, but I can give you figures from a large rental house: we stock 3 times more 5D2s than we did 5Ds at their peak (and that was our previously best renting camera). The 5D2 rents more than 3 times more frequently than any other camera we've ever stocked and the number would be higher except we never could get enough to keep them in stock."

Also, there are people tracking 5D2 serial numbers, that think it indicates 4X higher sales than the original 5D in its first year.

In short, the 5D broke all sorts of records for how fast the price dropped, how far it dropped, and how steep and frequent the rebates were. It was unprecedented for Canon. I think it indicates that they greatly overestimated the sales of that unit, and I think that contributed to them greatly *under* estimating the sales of the 5D2. My guess is that the video feature blew the doors off their expectations.

This is same letter I got when Canon said there would be no firmware update to the Canon 5D Mark II to give us manual control.

Excellent analysis, Daniel!

Oh hell yeah there's a financial penalty. There's going to be hoards of people who would have bought a 5D2 if it had 24p that are instead going to opt for a 7D. That's leaving a whole lot of dough on the table if it's as simple as providing 24p in a 5D2 firmware update. That point will certainly not be lost on the bean counters. My thought on this is if it is technically possible, they will do it for this reason alone. Also, I actually take Chuck's comment as a positive when reading between the lines.

That is quite possibly the best point to make when figuring out why 24/25p implementation on the 5Dmk2 isn't a priority for them.
That, and when somebody said: "hey, these indie filmmakers are dedicated, persistent, and resourceful...howabout instead of just giving them the 24p via firmware update, now knowing how desperately they want it, we make them buy it for the low price of $1700...They'll do it"

Another great point that I've been expressing elsewhere.
Since they're capable of dropping 10 frames with no discernable increase in rolling shutter artifacts or other glitches, why not 6 fewer frames?
If there was enough lead time, I'd propose an experiment to test and identify Canon's motivation for implementing certain features on the 7D and not the 5D via a strategically timed 24p/25p firmware hack two weeks before the 7D launches. We could observe how quickly after an unidentified number of 7D orders are cancelled that Canon tries to shut down the spread of the 24p/25p hack, thus validating the hypothesis that Canon selectively chose not to implement 24p/25p on the 5Dmk2 not for technological reasons, but other reasons.
Though, I don't think we really need an experiment as time and energy consuming as that to make that point.

Not so sure myself. Like I said before, if you have nothing right now, it's going to be much more tempting to buy a 7d if 24p is important to you, so that's a potentially lost 5D sale right there, so less cash to Canon. Then, for folks who already have a 5D2 and dump it to buy a 7D instead, well again, there's one more 5D2 on the used market and one less person buying a new 5D2. For those who might buy a 7D and keep their 5D2, then again, they might have bought a second 5D2 if it had 24p, plus if they are willing to own two bodies like that, they probably would have bought two anyway (pretty much every serious photographer is going to have at least two good bodies, same goes for videographers too, no?). If it's technically possible, and given the current product lineup (the 5D2 being up market from the 7D), they'd be fools to not provide 24p if it's possible.

Indeed Bill, I have been considering a second 5D2 but now will probably go for the 7D sometime in the next few months. (because it's cheaper)

Voting with the ol wallet.

Avey

My company was in the process of planning to purchase two 5D Mark IIs, but now we will most likely consider going another route entirely. If Canon does not offer support and continued improvements on their equipment, then we may look at some of the Sony video options.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. THREE less 5D2 sales right there, and we aren't even trying. There's no way Canon doesn't realize this.

Look
 

Canon was under a lot of serious pressure for 25p on the 5dmkII from Europe (and less serious pressure for 24p from indie pipsqueaks in the USA). That was before the 7D. Now all that pressure has quadrupled with the entire base of high-end Canon customers (read: 5dmkII customers) feeling either vaguely or entirely burned.

If there is a technical reason that 24p/25p on that camera is simply not possible with a software update, Canon should say so. If there is no reason, Canon should short-circuit this slow-moving PR disaster and announce an update ASAP.

My guess is that they just can't make it work because of hardware limitations (the compression chip has only a couple of modes and you can't add new modes to the camera without literally replacing that chip on the circuit-board).

Generally speaking, Japanese camera / electronics manufacturers tend not to
do that though. They tend to remain tight-lipped about these sorts of things.

Indie Pipsqueaks, that might be my new favorite term.

So there are few preproduction bodies out there in right hands (e.g. Phil Bloom). Is there a way to dump 7D firmware and send it to Tramm for experiments ASAP?

There is a chance that my 5D dumping tools will work on the 7D if the CF hardware is sufficiently similar. My hope is that they would be at the same I/O address in memory, so I am guessing that with a few days of hands-on time I'll be able to dump it and start on adding support to Magic Lantern for the 7D. And once that is working, I want to look at how the 7D talks to the DIGIC4 to see if the 5D's chip will respond to the same frame rate settings.

It's interesting that the 7D apparently has a higher data rate than the 5DII. Engineers don't do that for the heck of it. Also, the 4gb limit is hit sooner.

My gut feeling is that there is no way to implement the different FPS on the 5D. If so Canon would totally release this as a firmware update BEFORE announcing the 7D in order to keep the option opened to new purchases of a body that is roughly $1k more. Film making purchases of both these bodies is such a minority anyways that most likely Canon doesn't truly care about this, but, I feel if it just a firmware update they would go ahead with it before the 7D hits the market because new buyers are the target and if you give new buyers two choices one FF and the other cheaper APS, then you can only win as a company.

Conspiracy theories aside, I feel if the software running the 7D exists then it would exist for the 5D if it could be done.

I still have a theory that Canon didn't expect such heavy use (in hours, not units sold) of the 5D for filmmaking that I really feel the hardware isn't going to have a life expectancy we expect it will have and they might be trying to move people over to a body that can survive constant use and abuse as a filmmaking equpiment. I feel this is the reason for the 2 chips in the 7D, it halves the load on the camera, reduces heat most likely, etc. I really think we are going to start seeing burnt out 5D's in the next 7-12 months.

Well, well, well..... it's funny that my wife's little PowerShot SD 750 will shoot video in 'standard 30fps,' 'fast frame 60fps,' 'compressed 15fps,' and other adjustable frame rates, while the $3000 EOS 5D MkII DOES NOT !!
You cannot convince me that this is a hardware limitation issue !!

What I DO believe is that Canon is holding out on the upgrade, hoping that since we've had a taste of video with the 5D Mk II, we'll all run out and buy another 7D to use as our primary video camera if we need 24fps for cinematography or client needs.

I'm sure there's some other marketing scheme they are convinced of, but in this economy, it may well bite them! As soon as Nikon, Sony, etc. are up to speed on the DSLR video options, they (Canon) may find themselves having a lot of 5D and 7D models sitting around while the competitors are selling their products... because they LISTEN to what their money-spending customers are asking for!

I might be wrong, but I think the hardware in the 5D might be slightly different to that in the PowerShot...

well with canon showing all its glory... i give up lol. red on the way.

i give up too.. and my scarlet will on the way.. sorry 7D. but i still love my 5D.

Only thing...the 7D is here, or will be in only a few weeks, and Scarlet is yet to be seen. And, if rumor is correct, the base Scarlet will have a 2/3" chip, much smaller than the APS-C size chip of the 7D. I too would prefer the 5DMKII, but I don't do enough still photography any more to justify the cost. I shoot some stills for publication and web but they really don't need that level of quality...although they do need to be higher resolution than my old camera is giving me. So I can justify a new still camera, and if it also shoots 24p video, then it would make a nice backup or second camera for my XH A1. If I shot 30fps instead of 24 on everything, I probably could talk myself into spending the money for the 5D MKII.

Yes, Craig. I realize there's a whole different software level between the PowerShot cameras and the 5D pro cameras. My point was simply that if they can do the adjustable frame rates with a simple camera like that, surely to goodness, something can be done for the video capture of the Canon 5D Mk II ?????????????

I'm sure if they'd set out to do that from the start, then sure, they could have. However, it's entirely possible that their design goals simply didn't involve variable frame rates, and that the hardware used as a result doesn't allow for such a thing even if there was a firmware update.

Of course it might be possible, but there's not much use in getting yourself worked up about the possibility that it can be done, and Canon are just holding out for whatever reason. If the 5D doesn't meet your needs in its current state, buy something else that does. It seems a bit disingenious to fork out cash on expensive equipment in the hope that it might eventually be upgraded do what you want it to.

The PowerShot SD 750 shoots at 640 x 480 so I don't see the relevance compared to the 5D.

I really think Christopher is on to something. Given that they already released a software update for the 5D for manual controls (which shows they are willing to update the camera), I think that if it was easy to do lower frame rates on the 5D they would have shipped that before (or at the same time as) the 7D. If nothing else, why push people in Europe to buy the 7D instead of the 5D, just because the 5D doesn't support the "right" frame rates? It's difficult to fathom why they'd do that, unless your conspiracy theory is that they want people in Europe to buy the 7D first, and then in two months, buy a 5D when the frame rate patch ships.

I whole heartedly agree with Craig.

This arugment for an upgrade of the 5dMkII is like saying "I purchased a a 2 seater BWM, but now I'm upset because there is no where to put the baby seat." If the hardware wasn't designed to support it, then there won't be any upgrade. As consumers, we were never told that the camera would support additional functionality, therefore we should not be expecting it.

Beg to differ.
Perhaps Canon shouldn't have wet appetites with the allowance of the full manual controls firmware update. Now, with even louder demand on 24p, people are expecting Canon to submit again.
It's a reasonable expectation.

I bet if they do it, it'll be in the form of a new camera, not something you can download. This is a much smaller thing, but on the XH A1 it would have been nice to be able to use one of the custom buttons for turning on and off the OIS instead of having to go to the menu. Everybody thought that should be an easy thing to do with software. They did it, but on the XH A1s. No downloadable upgrade for the old camera.

If Canon upgrades the 5D2 in November, they will have a killer tandem for Xmas. Anybody wanting high (not perfect) quality shallow DOF video will be drawn to the 7D or 5D depending on their needs and budget.

Canon should strike while the iron is hot. By the time the 5D Mark III is available, Nikon and others will present more competition.

I believe that this will affect photographers as well. Often when I buy a product, I am tempted by features that I don't expect to use much, just in case. If I buy without the feature, I might have long-term regret. If I have to spend a bit more than I wanted to get the feature, the extra cash is soon forgotten. Photographers will want the cool video thing as an insurance policy. Video could become important to their business with a single client or assignment.

I'd lay odds on the chance they'd come out with a 2/3" chip XH A1 type camera before they redo the 5DMKII. If the Scarlet really does get built and on the market in the near future, it probably would be a major blow to the 1/3" chip pro cameras. The 5DMKII seems to be hitting its intended market right where it counts, and the 7D may do the same. The only real advantage( for video) I can see with the 5DMKII is that a wide angle lens is really a wide angle lens. An advantage for the 7D will be if cine lens adapters come out at a reasonable price. Maybe even a C-mount one so we could scrounge around and get old super fast C-mount lenses from old Bell & Howells off eBay....

There's an interview with Vincent LaForet in which he says, in his opinion, there's not going to be 24p on the 5DII any time soon.

I'm sure there's a variety of opinions within Canon about how this situation should be handled. But the people in Canon who make these decisions are pretty far removed from the western world. I wonder what's going on in the east with this product?

I would be shocked to see a 5DIII within a year. The next full frame camera is likely a 1 series at $7K.

The only reason we got manual control on the 5DII is that we were purchasing third party lenses for aperture control. By giving us 24p on the 5D they just decrease future camera sales. They have no reason to want to do that. I wouldn't do it if I were in charge.

XH and photography are two different divisions. Since the 5DII video response caught Canon by surprise, I'm sure they're confused how this all fits together. Sony's single 2/3 chip camera is good but not great. So I think 2/3 may be too small at this point.

How this technology all fits together, and sony coming in as a third player, will be fascinating. I am confident that Canon can come up to RED quality in a year or two. As exciting as all this is, it aint RED yet.

Well, the APS-C size chip on the 7D is very close (about 2mm less) in size to the Red One's chip. But we're not going to get that quality in a sub-$2K piece of equipment and with H.264.

I think we're in a minority when it comes to wanting 24p. The 5DMKII is still one of the most desired cameras around. As long as that camera is selling all over the world, the bean counters at Canon are happy. In my case the 24p of the 7D is more desirable than the shallower depth of field of the 5DMKII. But others may prefer that. What's more desirable about the 5DMKII for me is that a 24mm lens is a 24mm lens. The 1.6 multiplier is slightly annoying but only in that I use wide angles more than long lenses, for most of the work I do. I'm not one who wants every shot to be a shallow depth of field; I consider it an effect and the 7D allows me to do it when I want. And for Steadicam work, a bit more depth of field helps with focus.

What would make my day with the 7D would be available cine lens adapters...and less expensive cine lenses (although the old C-mount lenses can still be found...people are using C-mount 16mm lenses on the Panasonic Lumix G1, whose sensor is about the right size for that).