24p on HV20 choppy?

Jay Cowley · May 28th, 2007, 11:19 AM

ok i was finally able to upload some sample video (i have dial up) so that you can see the issue i'm having.

could a few people who know this camera have a look at this footage, and see if it looks normal to you, hv20 shooting in 24p mode, 1/48 shutter

http://ia340903.us.archive.org/1/ite...ple/shakey.wmv

That is what I get whenever playing back on my TV from raw tape as well, so it's not a computer performance/rendering issue. It just looks 'fast motion' to me, as if there is motion effect on it for a special look. Am i just shooting wrong, is my camera actually not working correctly, or is it fine and it's just my eyes?

Herman Van Deventer · May 28th, 2007, 12:38 PM

I've been playing around with the 24p and am not happy with the motion. It feels very choppy, with a 'rough' feel, almost like the video is being played in fast motion, but it doesn't feel natural.

Is there a Can someone sled some light on this, i've heard so many people rave about the 24p on this camera, surely i must be seeing something different, it just feels much to rough to be enjoyable.[/QUOTE]

JAY / study the following LINK / Do not shudder at the judder /

This link will bring you closer to the answer.

http://hd24.com/dont_shudder_at_the_judder.htm

Herman,

Joel Endicott · May 28th, 2007, 01:30 PM

Jay, there is definitely something wrong with your footage. Take a look at the Rio footage, or the Sunny Day footage that has recently been posted here. For handheld, moving around a lot, it looks pretty smooth. I just posted some footage that has both handheld and tripod use, and I think it's pretty smooth. You can check it out here (it's called Afternoon Rain):

http://www.jsendicott.com/dvinfo

It looks to me like your watching 24p inside of a 60i timeline. But, the bad news is that it should not look like that when watching directly out of your camera on a TV.

Enea Lanzarone · May 28th, 2007, 02:15 PM

Jay, I noticed blended frames in your footage (they overlap clearly) I couldn't get out with any player I have. So I assume they were rendered like that when you converted your footage to the wmv file. As I hardly believe the footage looks the same straight off the cam, I suggest you post a small uncompressed mpeg or m2t sample for us here to judge where the bug is.

I'm really thankfull that I live in a PAL land...so much less trouble (none, that is) with 25P...and I love it, love it, love it! ;)

Jay Cowley · May 28th, 2007, 02:16 PM

Joel I watched your clip, with the rain shots with the letus adapter. It looked very good, there wasn't a lot of panning/camera movement, but i'm curious to know whether if it was my hv20 behind your lens adapter, whether the image would be choppier.

Could anyone else look at that footage? Any settings on the camera I might have adjusted by accident that would give it that look? I just don't see how I every get Future Shop (store i purchased from) to go for swapping for a different HV20, they would never understand the importance of the motion i'm after, and would think it was just fine.

Jay Cowley · May 28th, 2007, 02:37 PM

honestly, i'm not even that worried about the judder, I can live with a bit more judder, i remember back when I only had a 60i SD camera, and all I wanted was to get the judder like film had. Now i have a bit too much but oh wel....

it's the motion. If you watch that clip, it feels like a music video, or a car chase on a TV show, it doesn't feel like regular 24p. Does anyone else see when I'm mean, after watching that clip. I just can't tell what it is and whats causing it.

Jeremy Teman · May 28th, 2007, 02:44 PM

Jay,

The reason film may look smoother than what you are getting is probably from a few resons.

1. Not shooting smooth/steady enough

2. The edge enhancement used to get a sharper image in camera will result it a jittery image campared to film.

3. I'm not sure, but you may want to remove the pulldown and then have a look. If you put that into a 24fps timeline straight up, it WILL look choppy.

Enea Lanzarone · May 28th, 2007, 03:33 PM

I think Jeremy's right. Especially concerning the pulldown. Like I said, your wmv file shows serious frame blending. You can litteraly see 2 frames overlapping each other (have a look at the still I grabbed). That's NOT what 24p is supposed to look like with this cam, BUT it will look like this unless pulldown is removed (NTSC owners, please correct me if I'm wrong). I guess if you want to achieve that look you're after you have to remove pulldown first.

I suggest the following: capture some 24p into your computer and, without further editing it, watch it with a player like PowerDVD or VLC. These players are capable of deinterlacing (you have to turn it on first), that is removing the pulldown 'on the fly' (worked for me with every single clip I downloaded here). If it still doesn't look right to you, it must be something else (maybe not shooting steady enough, like Jeremy said).

Jay Cowley · May 28th, 2007, 03:55 PM

- OK i took a "direct' screenshot from the original m2t capture, no rendering here at all involved.

heres is the raw screenshot, showing this blending i'm getting straight from my HV20 raw footage. is this why i'm getting that 'fast motion' music video style look to my footage.

Blake Calhoun · May 28th, 2007, 04:22 PM

Jay,

Just watched your footage... it was NOT shot at 1/48 shutter. Looks more like 1/100 or greater. You definitely have the "Saving Private Ryan" effect going.

You said you shot at 1/48, but did you lock it using TV mode? If you did then your camera may be malfunctioning.

This has nothing to do with 3:2 pulldown.

Gerrit Schroder · May 28th, 2007, 04:22 PM

Sorry - I see that the pulldown issue has been addressed.

Hal Snook · May 28th, 2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Cowley

- OK i took a "direct' screenshot from the original m2t capture, no rendering here at all involved.

heres is the raw screenshot, showing this blending i'm getting straight from my HV20 raw footage. is this why i'm getting that 'fast motion' music video style look to my footage.

Does every frame look like that? With 24p only 2 out of every 5 frames should appear interlaced, no matter what the shutter speed.

Jeremy Teman · May 28th, 2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Cowley

- OK i took a "direct' screenshot from the original m2t capture, no rendering here at all involved.

heres is the raw screenshot, showing this blending i'm getting straight from my HV20 raw footage. is this why i'm getting that 'fast motion' music video style look to my footage.

Once again, It will NOT play back at 23.98 if you do not remove the pulldown. HDV will capture the footage at 60i and it will continue to be 'interlaced' like that until you remove it.

Did you capture it with HDV? If so, it was not 'raw' like you mentioned.

Try removing the pulldown and have a look at it again. There are plenty of threads on how to do that properly.

Ian G. Thompson · May 28th, 2007, 04:52 PM

Jay, from looking at your video I would say you have two things going:

1. You seem to have a high shutter speed going on here (someone might have already mentioned this). This would cause that "judder" llike look.

2. You are also viewing that ghosting effect of "pulldown."

I think together they caused your video to look this way. Higher shutter speeds (1/120 or above) can cause a judder during movement. Yeah, it's like the Saving Private Ryan look. High shutter speed coupled with 60i can give great slow otion (I'm sure you know that) but I think you might have had your shutter faster than 1/48 or 1/60. Put that together with the pulldown effect and I would expect video to look exactly like this. As mentioned before, maybe you can try removing the pulldown. You definately will see the difference.

Jay Cowley · May 28th, 2007, 05:33 PM

I'm trying to stay away from the whole pulldown thing, because I'm not very good at coding, and I had don't have any extra software like premiere and cineform. I just have vegas 7.

I used hvsplit to capture the footage as a 60i 29.97fps m2t, then i just skipped through each frame individually, and found that ghosting look (see attached picture from before)

so a high shutter speed would be the explanation of that motion look. I'll try again making sure I'm shooting at 1/48.

May 28th, 2007, 12:38 PM	#17
Herman Van Deventer Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: cape town South-Africa Posts: 251	I've been playing around with the 24p and am not happy with the motion. It feels very choppy, with a 'rough' feel, almost like the video is being played in fast motion, but it doesn't feel natural. Is there a Can someone sled some light on this, i've heard so many people rave about the 24p on this camera, surely i must be seeing something different, it just feels much to rough to be enjoyable.[/QUOTE] JAY / study the following LINK / Do not shudder at the judder / This link will bring you closer to the answer. http://hd24.com/dont_shudder_at_the_judder.htm Herman, Last edited by Herman Van Deventer; May 28th, 2007 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Spilled beer on keyboard.

May 28th, 2007, 03:33 PM	#23
Enea Lanzarone Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53	I think Jeremy's right. Especially concerning the pulldown. Like I said, your wmv file shows serious frame blending. You can litteraly see 2 frames overlapping each other (have a look at the still I grabbed). That's NOT what 24p is supposed to look like with this cam, BUT it will look like this unless pulldown is removed (NTSC owners, please correct me if I'm wrong). I guess if you want to achieve that look you're after you have to remove pulldown first. I suggest the following: capture some 24p into your computer and, without further editing it, watch it with a player like PowerDVD or VLC. These players are capable of deinterlacing (you have to turn it on first), that is removing the pulldown 'on the fly' (worked for me with every single clip I downloaded here). If it still doesn't look right to you, it must be something else (maybe not shooting steady enough, like Jeremy said). Attached Thumbnails

May 28th, 2007, 03:55 PM	#24
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	- OK i took a "direct' screenshot from the original m2t capture, no rendering here at all involved. heres is the raw screenshot, showing this blending i'm getting straight from my HV20 raw footage. is this why i'm getting that 'fast motion' music video style look to my footage. Attached Thumbnails

May 28th, 2007, 04:22 PM	#25
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	Jay, Just watched your footage... it was NOT shot at 1/48 shutter. Looks more like 1/100 or greater. You definitely have the "Saving Private Ryan" effect going. You said you shot at 1/48, but did you lock it using TV mode? If you did then your camera may be malfunctioning. This has nothing to do with 3:2 pulldown. __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 28th, 2007, 04:22 PM	#26
Gerrit Schroder New Boot Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 11	Sorry - I see that the pulldown issue has been addressed. Last edited by Gerrit Schroder; May 28th, 2007 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Issue already handled

May 28th, 2007, 11:19 AM	#16
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	ok i was finally able to upload some sample video (i have dial up) so that you can see the issue i'm having. could a few people who know this camera have a look at this footage, and see if it looks normal to you, hv20 shooting in 24p mode, 1/48 shutter http://ia340903.us.archive.org/1/ite...ple/shakey.wmv That is what I get whenever playing back on my TV from raw tape as well, so it's not a computer performance/rendering issue. It just looks 'fast motion' to me, as if there is motion effect on it for a special look. Am i just shooting wrong, is my camera actually not working correctly, or is it fine and it's just my eyes?

May 28th, 2007, 01:30 PM	#18
Joel Endicott Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: League City, TX Posts: 26	Jay, there is definitely something wrong with your footage. Take a look at the Rio footage, or the Sunny Day footage that has recently been posted here. For handheld, moving around a lot, it looks pretty smooth. I just posted some footage that has both handheld and tripod use, and I think it's pretty smooth. You can check it out here (it's called Afternoon Rain): http://www.jsendicott.com/dvinfo It looks to me like your watching 24p inside of a 60i timeline. But, the bad news is that it should not look like that when watching directly out of your camera on a TV.

May 28th, 2007, 02:15 PM	#19
Enea Lanzarone Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53	Jay, I noticed blended frames in your footage (they overlap clearly) I couldn't get out with any player I have. So I assume they were rendered like that when you converted your footage to the wmv file. As I hardly believe the footage looks the same straight off the cam, I suggest you post a small uncompressed mpeg or m2t sample for us here to judge where the bug is. I'm really thankfull that I live in a PAL land...so much less trouble (none, that is) with 25P...and I love it, love it, love it! ;)

May 28th, 2007, 02:16 PM	#20
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	Joel I watched your clip, with the rain shots with the letus adapter. It looked very good, there wasn't a lot of panning/camera movement, but i'm curious to know whether if it was my hv20 behind your lens adapter, whether the image would be choppier. Could anyone else look at that footage? Any settings on the camera I might have adjusted by accident that would give it that look? I just don't see how I every get Future Shop (store i purchased from) to go for swapping for a different HV20, they would never understand the importance of the motion i'm after, and would think it was just fine.

May 28th, 2007, 02:37 PM	#21
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	honestly, i'm not even that worried about the judder, I can live with a bit more judder, i remember back when I only had a 60i SD camera, and all I wanted was to get the judder like film had. Now i have a bit too much but oh wel.... it's the motion. If you watch that clip, it feels like a music video, or a car chase on a TV show, it doesn't feel like regular 24p. Does anyone else see when I'm mean, after watching that clip. I just can't tell what it is and whats causing it.

May 28th, 2007, 02:44 PM	#22
Jeremy Teman Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: CA Posts: 41	Jay, The reason film may look smoother than what you are getting is probably from a few resons. 1. Not shooting smooth/steady enough 2. The edge enhancement used to get a sharper image in camera will result it a jittery image campared to film. 3. I'm not sure, but you may want to remove the pulldown and then have a look. If you put that into a 24fps timeline straight up, it WILL look choppy.

May 28th, 2007, 04:52 PM	#29
Ian G. Thompson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rockledge, Florida Posts: 351	Jay, from looking at your video I would say you have two things going: 1. You seem to have a high shutter speed going on here (someone might have already mentioned this). This would cause that "judder" llike look. 2. You are also viewing that ghosting effect of "pulldown." I think together they caused your video to look this way. Higher shutter speeds (1/120 or above) can cause a judder during movement. Yeah, it's like the Saving Private Ryan look. High shutter speed coupled with 60i can give great slow otion (I'm sure you know that) but I think you might have had your shutter faster than 1/48 or 1/60. Put that together with the pulldown effect and I would expect video to look exactly like this. As mentioned before, maybe you can try removing the pulldown. You definately will see the difference.

May 28th, 2007, 05:33 PM	#30
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	I'm trying to stay away from the whole pulldown thing, because I'm not very good at coding, and I had don't have any extra software like premiere and cineform. I just have vegas 7. I used hvsplit to capture the footage as a 60i 29.97fps m2t, then i just skipped through each frame individually, and found that ghosting look (see attached picture from before) so a high shutter speed would be the explanation of that motion look. I'll try again making sure I'm shooting at 1/48.