Contacting Canon re: adding 24p pulldown flags

Peter J Alessandria · June 4th, 2007, 09:51 AM

Been away on vacation for a couple of weeks but just wanted to give an update: I have been having an email dialogue (of sorts at least) with Canon USA Sr. VP and General Manager Yuichi Ishizuka on the issue. I'll let you know what his response is hopefully by the end of the week.

Taj Jackson · June 4th, 2007, 11:15 AM

Thanks for keeping us posted. We are behind you.

John Machtinger · June 4th, 2007, 12:46 PM

Thanks for doing this. :)

Please make sure to mention that people are buying the camera for this feature. When compared to the Sony competitor, the HV20 has better low light capability, thanks chiefly to the 24p mode. Reviews and Canon itself tout this feature. They need to make it so we can actually use it without jumping through overly-laborious hoops!

Javier Paradinas · June 4th, 2007, 05:13 PM

Thanks Peter for taking the time :)

Dave Blackhurst · June 4th, 2007, 05:47 PM

I agree, while you have their ear ask exactly how the average guy is supposed to edit the much touted 24P footage... otherwise it's really not much of a feature... just marketing hype.

It's great that it's there, and I'm sure sooner or later there will be patches for the major NLEs, but if they could have made it easier to edit, sure would have been nice. Since apparently "flags" would do this, it's a glaring omission.

I've shot some 24P, but other committments have prevented my trying to download all the software for the free windows workflow and try it out... I used to shoot 30F with an old Panasonic and really liked that footage - no stinkin jaggies/zippers/whatever you want to call 'em to deal with as each frame was a complete progressive "picture", not half a scan. I would love to be able to get the same thing with this cam, and that's one of the reasons I bought it...

I'm speculating to some degree, but it would seem like progressive should help eliminate some of the infamous "rolling shutter" as well... sort of frustrating it's not more easily accessable!

DB>)

Elmer Lang · June 4th, 2007, 06:49 PM

Saaaaaaalude!

Me and looks like a bunch others appreciate you staying with this.

It would be great to get it taken care of during capture, all this sending out and getting back huge AIC or ProRess files really isn't the best/most efficient use of my time/resources.

Keep at it, Peter!

best,
elmer

David Jasany · June 5th, 2007, 05:40 AM

Last week I also emailed Canon about the lack of pulldown flags. Here's tech support's response:

"In the USA as well as many other countries the Canon HV20 offers a
selectable shooting mode which uses true 24 Frame progressive shooting
to give your video a more cinematic look. These frames of video are
recorded onto the tape or output via the HDMI, IEEE1394 or composite
terminals by adding a "2:3 pull-down" to convert the 24 Frames in 30
Frames to be compatible with Televisions and monitors. This is the same
industry standard system used to show "Hollywood" movies on Television.
Most consumer software packages are capable of editing this video in the
same way as any other DV or HDV video. However some high end customers
have requested the ability to import the video into professional video
editing suites and applying a 2:3 pulldown to the footage which allows
the individual 24 Frames to be extracted.

In HDV (one of the many recording formats of HD video), Canon uses 2
systems of recording 24 Frame video. In our Pro 3 CCD products when you
are using the 24 Frame mode, we record the 24 Frames directly to HDV
tape (there is no 2:3 pulldown). This means that when you import the
footage to an editing system, the footage is already 24 Frames and can
be placed directly on a 24 Frame timeline. This is true 24P recording.
The other system is applies a 2:3 pulldown to the 24F video and records
it as 30 Frame on the HDV tape. We use this system in our consumer class
camcorders.

Since the Canon HV20 is a consumer class of camcorder it does not
include a feature to record 24 Frame video directly to HDV tape. By not
including this feature, frame extraction is somewhat more difficult,
requiring that the editor manually identify the 2:3 pulldown, then the
editing program can extract the 24 Frame video. This process varies from
one editing program to the other and may not be available on all
programs.
These requests are being noted and forwarded on to our product
development department to determine the feasibility to add this feature
to the HV20 or a future consumer model.

However, at this time, there are no plans to modify the HV20's feature
set in any way."

Tim Haas · June 5th, 2007, 06:02 AM

that's sort of discouraging...
i got the exact same reply, verbatim.

we seem to have frustrated them to the point of developing a form letter for us and our demands...

Chris Hurd · June 5th, 2007, 07:19 AM

What's wrong with a form letter? Wouldn't you rather have a situation where everyone receives the *same* reply, as opposed to each person getting a different explanation? I mean seriously, wouldn't that be a heck of a lot worse, if they were saying different things to different people -- can you imagine the confusion and frustration created if the reply was *not* the same for each person?

Euisung Lee · June 5th, 2007, 04:05 PM

Well Canon didn't exactly anwered our question, did they?
Didn't Peter just request adding the flag information about pulldown so that inverse telecine can be done a bit easier? I don't think any of us here have expected them to add that "24 frame mode" to HV20.

Wes Vasher · June 5th, 2007, 05:41 PM

I think it's neat that the form letter refers to us as high-end customers. :)

I agree Chris, a form letter in response to our Emails is a good thing, it's good to actually get a response from one of these companies. Looks like I'll need to keep using AE to remove the pull-down which isn't a huge deal, just one more step.

Euisung! Holy cow! Glad to see you posting here, so are you an HV20 owner too? And yeah, we aren't asking for 24f as the form letter seems to suggest, though if they wanted to add it I don't think anyone would complain.

Matthias Krause · June 5th, 2007, 07:48 PM

I talked to the (only) two Canon video reps in the US about the problem at a Multimedia workshop last week in Portland. The short answer: It's not our problem, we will not change anything on this camera or it's firmware...

Peter J Alessandria · June 5th, 2007, 10:17 PM

No news yet... but hold on to the idea of a form letter. I think we may need to create one of our own. ;-)

Euisung Lee · June 5th, 2007, 10:36 PM

Hi Wes, great to see you here too. (oh the good thing about using real names in the forum :)

Yep I'm the proud owner of HV20. This cam is such a joy. Too bad I don't have enough time to use it as much as I'd like to. I'll check out the clips of your site and learn a thing or two about this camera.

John Machtinger · June 6th, 2007, 12:53 AM

They need to be hit in the pocketbook or they won't do anything. Of course they'll say it's not their problem as long as the camera is selling.

If we post reviews to Amazon, et al (I bought my HV20 there so I can post a review; I don't know if that's a requirement) warning people that they can *shoot* 24p but good luck actually viewing 24p with any kind of ease, other than straight off the tape into a HDTV, perhaps word will get around about this problem and Canon will be more motivated.

June 4th, 2007, 09:51 AM	#1
Peter J Alessandria Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 293	Contacting Canon re: adding 24p pulldown flags - Part Duex Been away on vacation for a couple of weeks but just wanted to give an update: I have been having an email dialogue (of sorts at least) with Canon USA Sr. VP and General Manager Yuichi Ishizuka on the issue. I'll let you know what his response is hopefully by the end of the week.

June 4th, 2007, 05:13 PM	#4
Javier Paradinas New Boot Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salamanca (Spain) Posts: 11	Thank Thanks Peter for taking the time :)

June 4th, 2007, 06:49 PM	#6
Elmer Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NY, NY Posts: 319	Saaaaaaalude! Me and looks like a bunch others appreciate you staying with this. It would be great to get it taken care of during capture, all this sending out and getting back huge AIC or ProRess files really isn't the best/most efficient use of my time/resources. Keep at it, Peter! best, elmer Last edited by Elmer Lang; June 4th, 2007 at 06:50 PM. Reason: malapropisms

June 5th, 2007, 07:19 AM	#9
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	What's wrong with a form letter? Wouldn't you rather have a situation where everyone receives the same reply, as opposed to each person getting a different explanation? I mean seriously, wouldn't that be a heck of a lot worse, if they were saying different things to different people -- can you imagine the confusion and frustration created if the reply was not the same for each person? __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

June 5th, 2007, 05:41 PM	#11
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	I think it's neat that the form letter refers to us as high-end customers. :) I agree Chris, a form letter in response to our Emails is a good thing, it's good to actually get a response from one of these companies. Looks like I'll need to keep using AE to remove the pull-down which isn't a huge deal, just one more step. Euisung! Holy cow! Glad to see you posting here, so are you an HV20 owner too? And yeah, we aren't asking for 24f as the form letter seems to suggest, though if they wanted to add it I don't think anyone would complain. __________________ Clips \| Stills

June 4th, 2007, 11:15 AM	#2
Taj Jackson Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: United States Posts: 46	Thanks for keeping us posted. We are behind you.

June 4th, 2007, 12:46 PM	#3
John Machtinger New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 7	Thanks for doing this. :) Please make sure to mention that people are buying the camera for this feature. When compared to the Sony competitor, the HV20 has better low light capability, thanks chiefly to the 24p mode. Reviews and Canon itself tout this feature. They need to make it so we can actually use it without jumping through overly-laborious hoops!

June 4th, 2007, 05:47 PM	#5
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	I agree, while you have their ear ask exactly how the average guy is supposed to edit the much touted 24P footage... otherwise it's really not much of a feature... just marketing hype. It's great that it's there, and I'm sure sooner or later there will be patches for the major NLEs, but if they could have made it easier to edit, sure would have been nice. Since apparently "flags" would do this, it's a glaring omission. I've shot some 24P, but other committments have prevented my trying to download all the software for the free windows workflow and try it out... I used to shoot 30F with an old Panasonic and really liked that footage - no stinkin jaggies/zippers/whatever you want to call 'em to deal with as each frame was a complete progressive "picture", not half a scan. I would love to be able to get the same thing with this cam, and that's one of the reasons I bought it... I'm speculating to some degree, but it would seem like progressive should help eliminate some of the infamous "rolling shutter" as well... sort of frustrating it's not more easily accessable! DB>)

June 5th, 2007, 05:40 AM	#7
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	Last week I also emailed Canon about the lack of pulldown flags. Here's tech support's response: "In the USA as well as many other countries the Canon HV20 offers a selectable shooting mode which uses true 24 Frame progressive shooting to give your video a more cinematic look. These frames of video are recorded onto the tape or output via the HDMI, IEEE1394 or composite terminals by adding a "2:3 pull-down" to convert the 24 Frames in 30 Frames to be compatible with Televisions and monitors. This is the same industry standard system used to show "Hollywood" movies on Television. Most consumer software packages are capable of editing this video in the same way as any other DV or HDV video. However some high end customers have requested the ability to import the video into professional video editing suites and applying a 2:3 pulldown to the footage which allows the individual 24 Frames to be extracted. In HDV (one of the many recording formats of HD video), Canon uses 2 systems of recording 24 Frame video. In our Pro 3 CCD products when you are using the 24 Frame mode, we record the 24 Frames directly to HDV tape (there is no 2:3 pulldown). This means that when you import the footage to an editing system, the footage is already 24 Frames and can be placed directly on a 24 Frame timeline. This is true 24P recording. The other system is applies a 2:3 pulldown to the 24F video and records it as 30 Frame on the HDV tape. We use this system in our consumer class camcorders. Since the Canon HV20 is a consumer class of camcorder it does not include a feature to record 24 Frame video directly to HDV tape. By not including this feature, frame extraction is somewhat more difficult, requiring that the editor manually identify the 2:3 pulldown, then the editing program can extract the 24 Frame video. This process varies from one editing program to the other and may not be available on all programs. These requests are being noted and forwarded on to our product development department to determine the feasibility to add this feature to the HV20 or a future consumer model. However, at this time, there are no plans to modify the HV20's feature set in any way."

June 5th, 2007, 06:02 AM	#8
Tim Haas New Boot Join Date: May 2007 Location: Yorkville IL Posts: 6	that's sort of discouraging... i got the exact same reply, verbatim. we seem to have frustrated them to the point of developing a form letter for us and our demands...

June 5th, 2007, 04:05 PM	#10
Euisung Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 57	Well Canon didn't exactly anwered our question, did they? Didn't Peter just request adding the flag information about pulldown so that inverse telecine can be done a bit easier? I don't think any of us here have expected them to add that "24 frame mode" to HV20.

June 5th, 2007, 07:48 PM	#12
Matthias Krause Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 203	I talked to the (only) two Canon video reps in the US about the problem at a Multimedia workshop last week in Portland. The short answer: It's not our problem, we will not change anything on this camera or it's firmware...

June 5th, 2007, 10:17 PM	#13
Peter J Alessandria Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 293	No news yet... but hold on to the idea of a form letter. I think we may need to create one of our own. ;-)

June 5th, 2007, 10:36 PM	#14
Euisung Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 57	Hi Wes, great to see you here too. (oh the good thing about using real names in the forum :) Yep I'm the proud owner of HV20. This cam is such a joy. Too bad I don't have enough time to use it as much as I'd like to. I'll check out the clips of your site and learn a thing or two about this camera.

June 6th, 2007, 12:53 AM	#15
John Machtinger New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 7	They need to be hit in the pocketbook or they won't do anything. Of course they'll say it's not their problem as long as the camera is selling. If we post reviews to Amazon, et al (I bought my HV20 there so I can post a review; I don't know if that's a requirement) warning people that they can shoot 24p but good luck actually viewing 24p with any kind of ease, other than straight off the tape into a HDTV, perhaps word will get around about this problem and Canon will be more motivated.