24p all the time? at DVinfo.net

Elmer Lang · June 22nd, 2007, 07:42 PM

I looked around but didn't really see a thread to hide behind, so: Because 24p looks so good in low light and has a nice overall feel, particularly since I've been checking out Cinemode, I was wondering if, besides motion problems and ghosting maybe, that 24p might be a good setting whether or not I want to get down to real 24p. Anotherwards, I could just leave it in 60i stream. Except for eagle-eyed pros, would anyone notice the difference, and would it cause any problems down the road?
lmr

Chris Barcellos · June 22nd, 2007, 09:06 PM

Elmer:

Haven't really taken mine out of 24p since I got it. The more you shoot with it, the more you learn what can or can't be done with it.

C.S. Michael · June 24th, 2007, 07:15 AM

I'd like to shoot more 24p, but editing it is a bear (unless Canon has updated the firmware).

Elmer Lang · June 24th, 2007, 11:09 AM

I'm just trying to figure out if I shoot it in 24p and don't do the pulldown, leave it in 60i, whether it will look fine. I like the look and the low-light capabilities, together with Cinemode. To my eyes it looks fine, but that's just on a MB Pro, I don't an HD tv to check it out.

Rob Unck · June 24th, 2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmer Lang

I'm just trying to figure out if I shoot it in 24p and don't do the pulldown, leave it in 60i, whether it will look fine. I like the look and the low-light capabilities, together with Cinemode. To my eyes it looks fine, but that's just on a MB Pro, I don't an HD tv to check it out.

I shoot 24P "all the time" and at this point plan to always leave it in 60i. I've watched it on my MBPro, my Sony Wega LCD HDTV (32") and my HDTV projector projected on a 100" screen. Looks absolutely fantastic on all screens. I've also created a short DVD test in 60i (standard definition DVD), never removing the pulldown, and it still looks great for my eyes.

In other words, I don't suddenly get a nasty surprise when I watch the footage on my TV or projector after seeing it on my computer. It's not like, "What the hell is this? It looked good on my computer!" ;)
No, it looks great (to me) wherever I see the footage.

The only reason I'll remove the pulldown in the future is if I want to do one of these things: a) Create a true progressive video because "I can"; b) If I shoot a feature film that I want to release to festivals or sell that I expect to be projected; c) If I want to transfer my footage to film.

But for the shooting I'm doing now -- documenting my band's recording sessions and rehearsals; "home" movies like vacations and sightseeing; short films for the web -- I'm perfectly content with the 24P footage remaining in 60i.

Javier Paradinas · June 24th, 2007, 12:18 PM

Cinemode drops shutter to 1/24 whenever he wants :( I love TV shutter priority mode.

Rob Unck · June 24th, 2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javier Paradinas

Cinemode drops shutter to 1/24 whenever he wants :( I love TV shutter priority mode.

Me too. In TV shutter priority mode I lock the shutter to 1/60 (usually) and the ability to lock exposure is great.

Robert Ducon · June 24th, 2007, 01:52 PM

I'm about to shoot a promotional video for a educational institution client with the HV20 - they saw my sample videos, and I've explained how good the camera is despite it's size, and I plan on dressing it up a bunch (8" LCD screen, carbon rails, matte box, etc).

I trust my skills with the HV20 on sticks, and trust the HV20 so I know I'll be fine for my purposes.

The question (like this thread): 24P or 60i? This will be played at kiosks (on widescreen SD monitors I'd imagine) and on the net, so it's a more of a special use kind of video. I'd shoot 30P if it was an option, but it isn't.

Why progressive? I want to retain the sharpness of the video that progressive offers - if it's interlaced, then at some point I'll have to deinterlace it, thus loosing lines of res.

30P also offers a special look - 24P might be a bit too special, but I believe with smooth pans, everything will be fine – and the special might be appreciated by those watching.

Thoughts?

C.S. Michael · June 24th, 2007, 04:41 PM

So if you don't remove the pulldown...do you edit & render the 24p footage as 60i?

I agree it looks great when viewed unedited via HDMI. The improved lowlight performance is also a plus. I just haven't figured out the editing yet (I'm using Premiere Pro).

Robert Ducon · June 24th, 2007, 05:44 PM

I'd remove the pull down and work on the footage as 24P - it'll have a good amount of After Effects motion graphics work done to it, so I'd have to choose 60i or 24P before I start shooting.

It's easy enough to make 24P playable on 60i devices again, right? So.. no biggie, right?

Mike Dulay · June 24th, 2007, 10:32 PM

You're right, choose 60i or 24p before you start. If AE does as good or better a job rendering effects as Vegas, you should be able to do your 3:2 pulldown removal at the end of your process rather than the front end if all your footage is 24p. Converting your 24p back to 60i shouldn't be too hard if you need it.

Peter J Alessandria · June 24th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmer Lang

I'm just trying to figure out if I shoot it in 24p and don't do the pulldown, leave it in 60i, whether it will look fine. I like the look and the low-light capabilities, together with Cinemode. To my eyes it looks fine, but that's just on a MB Pro, I don't an HD tv to check it out.

I shoot 24p all the time. Then edit 60i in Vegas. I don't notice any ghosting on my DVD's (or HDMI out of original footage) on my HDTV's. The only time I've seen ghositng is on files I've rendered for viewing on the computer and it usually isn't that bad.

Robert Ducon · June 25th, 2007, 12:23 AM

I use the Final Cut Studio suite, so pull down would be fine - I'd shoot 24P (within 60i timeline), import and transcode immediately to a 24-frame second, full raster 1080P codec - either Blackmagic JPEG or Apple ProRess 422 (the latter if I have it at the time of the project).

So, I know it'd be a true 24 frames progressive.

I'm wondering though - for a semi-pro application (plasma TV in a kiosk), is 24P fine, or a no-no? Is this mostly a matter of taste thing?

I'd respect the 24P and shoot it with smooth pans and at 1/48.

I want the progressive factor rather than interlaced. I'd think it'd look great - people would notice something 'professional' and 'nice' about it vs. the usual 60i that we always see. Thoughts?

John Hotze · June 25th, 2007, 03:06 PM

I have never shot anything in 24p mode because of the hassle I've read about removing pulldown. I didn't know that you could play the 24p tape and get good viewing without doing the pull down. I would think for sure if you shoot 24p and want to render a wmv file for the Internet or any other format, that it was going to look like crap unless you removed the pulldown. My eyes have been opened. At least now, I am going to do some 24p shooting and watch it on my 32" high def LCD monitor to compare it to 60i.

I just ventured over to Cine mode shooting a couple weeks ago and found out I liked it so much I never moved back to TV mode which I normally shot in.

So unless I plan on learning how to remove the pulldowns, I still don't dare shoot in 24p for rendering wmv files for the Internet, right.

I caught several mentions of an improvement in low light situations. I shoot a lot in low light situations. Is it 24p that helps or is it Cine mode that helps improve low light shooting. Guess I'll be doing some experimenting.

If you had the camera connected up to an HD montor via HDMI while you were in the record mode, would you see a difference between 60i and 24p settings? Guess I'm going to find out tonight, one way or another.

Please Canon, update the firmware to do the pulldown.

Rob Unck · June 25th, 2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hotze

So unless I plan on learning how to remove the pulldowns, I still don't dare shoot in 24p for rendering wmv files for the Internet, right?

No, there's no need to remove the pulldown to render wmv files. Feel free to shoot in 24P.

I've shot a few uninteresting (you've been warned!) rehearsals and recording sessions of my band. All shot in 24P on the HV20, edited, outputted for the web and uploaded to YouTube.

Admittedly, these videos don't really take advantage of the 24P feature from an aesthetic standpoint, but that doesn't change the fact that they were shot in 24P and there was no pulldown removed before I edited and uploaded them. They were all edited in a "regular old" 60i timeline.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6gSkwawUeY8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vlyr31-vhe8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sBEbMQU4Ybk
(I've never tried to watch these on a slow connection, so I don't know how they will look on a slow connection/whether YouTube downgrades the image for slow connections or not. They look decent on my cable internet connection.)

June 22nd, 2007, 07:42 PM	#1
Elmer Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NY, NY Posts: 319	24p all the time? I looked around but didn't really see a thread to hide behind, so: Because 24p looks so good in low light and has a nice overall feel, particularly since I've been checking out Cinemode, I was wondering if, besides motion problems and ghosting maybe, that 24p might be a good setting whether or not I want to get down to real 24p. Anotherwards, I could just leave it in 60i stream. Except for eagle-eyed pros, would anyone notice the difference, and would it cause any problems down the road? lmr

June 22nd, 2007, 09:06 PM	#2
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Elmer: Haven't really taken mine out of 24p since I got it. The more you shoot with it, the more you learn what can or can't be done with it. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

June 24th, 2007, 01:52 PM	#8
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	I'm about to shoot a promotional video for a educational institution client with the HV20 - they saw my sample videos, and I've explained how good the camera is despite it's size, and I plan on dressing it up a bunch (8" LCD screen, carbon rails, matte box, etc). I trust my skills with the HV20 on sticks, and trust the HV20 so I know I'll be fine for my purposes. The question (like this thread): 24P or 60i? This will be played at kiosks (on widescreen SD monitors I'd imagine) and on the net, so it's a more of a special use kind of video. I'd shoot 30P if it was an option, but it isn't. Why progressive? I want to retain the sharpness of the video that progressive offers - if it's interlaced, then at some point I'll have to deinterlace it, thus loosing lines of res. 30P also offers a special look - 24P might be a bit too special, but I believe with smooth pans, everything will be fine – and the special might be appreciated by those watching. Thoughts? __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

June 24th, 2007, 05:44 PM	#10
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	I'd remove the pull down and work on the footage as 24P - it'll have a good amount of After Effects motion graphics work done to it, so I'd have to choose 60i or 24P before I start shooting. It's easy enough to make 24P playable on 60i devices again, right? So.. no biggie, right? __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

June 24th, 2007, 10:32 PM	#11
Mike Dulay Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Somerville, NJ Posts: 304	You're right, choose 60i or 24p before you start. If AE does as good or better a job rendering effects as Vegas, you should be able to do your 3:2 pulldown removal at the end of your process rather than the front end if all your footage is 24p. Converting your 24p back to 60i shouldn't be too hard if you need it. __________________ DIY, 35mm, HV20: http://www.primitivebuteffective.net

June 24th, 2007, 07:15 AM	#3
C.S. Michael Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 197	I'd like to shoot more 24p, but editing it is a bear (unless Canon has updated the firmware).

June 24th, 2007, 11:09 AM	#4
Elmer Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NY, NY Posts: 319	I'm just trying to figure out if I shoot it in 24p and don't do the pulldown, leave it in 60i, whether it will look fine. I like the look and the low-light capabilities, together with Cinemode. To my eyes it looks fine, but that's just on a MB Pro, I don't an HD tv to check it out.

June 24th, 2007, 12:18 PM	#6
Javier Paradinas New Boot Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salamanca (Spain) Posts: 11	Cinemode drops shutter to 1/24 whenever he wants :( I love TV shutter priority mode.

June 24th, 2007, 04:41 PM	#9
C.S. Michael Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 197	So if you don't remove the pulldown...do you edit & render the 24p footage as 60i? I agree it looks great when viewed unedited via HDMI. The improved lowlight performance is also a plus. I just haven't figured out the editing yet (I'm using Premiere Pro).

June 25th, 2007, 12:23 AM	#13
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	I use the Final Cut Studio suite, so pull down would be fine - I'd shoot 24P (within 60i timeline), import and transcode immediately to a 24-frame second, full raster 1080P codec - either Blackmagic JPEG or Apple ProRess 422 (the latter if I have it at the time of the project). So, I know it'd be a true 24 frames progressive. I'm wondering though - for a semi-pro application (plasma TV in a kiosk), is 24P fine, or a no-no? Is this mostly a matter of taste thing? I'd respect the 24P and shoot it with smooth pans and at 1/48. I want the progressive factor rather than interlaced. I'd think it'd look great - people would notice something 'professional' and 'nice' about it vs. the usual 60i that we always see. Thoughts? __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

June 25th, 2007, 03:06 PM	#14
John Hotze Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri Posts: 129	Wow! Has this thread opened my eyes. I have never shot anything in 24p mode because of the hassle I've read about removing pulldown. I didn't know that you could play the 24p tape and get good viewing without doing the pull down. I would think for sure if you shoot 24p and want to render a wmv file for the Internet or any other format, that it was going to look like crap unless you removed the pulldown. My eyes have been opened. At least now, I am going to do some 24p shooting and watch it on my 32" high def LCD monitor to compare it to 60i. I just ventured over to Cine mode shooting a couple weeks ago and found out I liked it so much I never moved back to TV mode which I normally shot in. So unless I plan on learning how to remove the pulldowns, I still don't dare shoot in 24p for rendering wmv files for the Internet, right. I caught several mentions of an improvement in low light situations. I shoot a lot in low light situations. Is it 24p that helps or is it Cine mode that helps improve low light shooting. Guess I'll be doing some experimenting. If you had the camera connected up to an HD montor via HDMI while you were in the record mode, would you see a difference between 60i and 24p settings? Guess I'm going to find out tonight, one way or another. Please Canon, update the firmware to do the pulldown.