Hv10
 

I bought the hv10 from b&h for $699.00 and thats not expensive for a deck+broll... if you do get one buy an extra battery aswell because they dont last very long. also this cam works very well as a deck for the xha1 & plays 24f/30f it just wont record those formats... as far as FCP i wouldnt know because i use PC...

-Sam~!

The HV10 is down to about $700 from B&H, which is why I'm getting interested. I've been loading footage from the XH A1 but really don't like to do that on a regular basis. Also, I'm looking for a good excuse to have a tiny camera that fits in a jacket pocket. I know the HV20 may be a bit better, but my main use would be as a deck, so I really don't need the 20. Any use of the 10 for shooting would be "snapshot" type video, or maybe using it in situations where a bigger camera would not be allowed, ie., when you need to look like a tourist. In those cases I don't need the 20's mic input, etc.

I understand the 20 does 24p, but outputs it as pulldown, so I don't care much about that. Although...I wonder if you shoot 24p with the HV20 and play it back from your XH A1, would it be captured as real 24p like the XH A1's 24p, or would it still do the pulldown thing?

A1 deck for HV20 in 24p?
 

I know the HV20 can be a deck for the A1, but since you can't properly download 24p without cineform in the HV20, can I take the 24p footage I've shot on the HV20 and download with my buddy's A1 in 24f without worry?

Playing back an HV20 tape in an XH A1 is not going to change 24P into 24F.

In other words, what happens in the camera head of one camcorder does not change when playing back on another camcorder. Playback doesn't change a recording. Hope this helps,

Deck Options for XHA1?
 

From what I understand the 24f mode on the XHA1 can only be played back on the camera and the HV20/10. Are there any other options out there if I want to shoot to tape and capture without wearing the heads?

At work we have a Sony Z1U along with a Sony HDV deck and the combo works great, especially because we can preview HDV from FCP through the deck and on to the SD Color monitor. I would like to see a similar solution for the Canon cameras. I would like to hear any of your ideas and what you do to capture.

Frequently asked. Please search before posting.

All Sony HDV decks will play back Canon 1080i60 video.

However no Sony HDV decks will play back Canon 1080p24 or 1080p30 video (otherwise known as Frame mode or 24F and 30F). If you don't want to use your XH A1 as a deck, then you'll need either a Canon HV10 or HV20 consumer HDV camcorder to play back Frame mode 24F and 30F video. Hope this helps,

Bill, did you get an HV20 and what did you learn?
 

was researching and found your concerns, Bill...

curious what you did and what you found?

thanks,
Lonnie

I haven't done anything yet. Still using the XH A1 for loading, but several friends are also shooting with the same cameras and we might get together and buy a collective little camera to share.

h 10 was available from tigerdirect for 460 us

deck for XHA1
 

Thanks, Lloyd, for that very good explanation of the difference between the decks and the proprietary brand issues.

I do believe the HV10 is a fully compatible deck for the XH-A1, and capturing all of its frame rates. However, if someone is purchasing a deck now, I'd recommend the HV20 for the improvements over the HV10. I bought one, and it is a great deck for XH-A1 footage. It does, amazingly, mimic the look of 24f HD from the XHA1, and I was able to use it as a b-camera on a complicated shoot. The two cameras work so well together! HV20 also is able to do full 4:2:2 color space, straight to capture card for compositing green screen shots.

I am really happy with the capabilities of these cameras, and the way they work together. I love that I now have a cheaper deck, and a great b-camera, all in one.

Hi Andris. How much were you expecting to pay for a deck? Usually they are a lot more expensive than the HV10 or HV20.

Richard

The only issue I have with the HV10 as a deck is it's slow transport response, but that's expected since it wasn't designed to be a deck in the 1st place.

Bill

Yeah, that's my major complaint about not having a deck--slow and cumbersome. However, I've sort of changed my workflow to compensate for that. Instead of logging and capturing specific shots, I just grab the whole tape, and FCP divides it into its separate clips, and I label them after capture. This would be impractical on shows where there are many takes of specific scenes and I only want to load the good ones, but so far I'm still shooting DVCAM for those projects. For my personal documentary stuff, I just capture the entire tape, and with lots of interviews, that's probably what I'd do in any case.

Still, it would be nice to have a deck.

24f: no compatible deck?
 

I am considering both the A1 and the Sony V1u. I don't quite understand what the difference between Canon's 24f and Sony's 24p are (or 30f and 30p). Is it also true that there is no hdv deck that will play back Canon's 24f? Does resolution suffer in 24f/30f versus 60i?

Frequently asked... any consumer Canon HDV camcorder (HV10 or HV20) can be used as a deck to play back 24P or 30P video recorded in Frame mode. The Sony VTR's are incompatible with Frame mode.

In "true" progressive cameras, 30p boasts a slightly higher resolution than 60i. Does Canon's 30f do the same?

I believe the 24F and 30F modes slightly decrease resolution (I've heard around 10-15%, but I'm not positive).

It's a slight loss in vertical res, and a complete non-issue for XH A1 shooters.

Why is it a non-issue?

Because it is one of the best 24p/25p/30p pictures in its price range. On a static rez chart (one of many ways to measure a camera's capabilities), Frame mode is sharp; 60i is slightly sharper. Anyone not happy with the capabilities of an XH camera just needs to go out and spend a whole lot more money on something else.

Both the deck issue and slight differences in rez between 60i and Frame Mode have been discussed to death throughout the XL H1 and XH forums. Please review those many, many threads. Then, if there are any new facts to add to those existing discussions, please do.

I will suggest that the slight difference in static resolution and "sharpness" are not issues in frame/progressive mode. Part of the look of the progressive video is the smoothness and it is normal to turn detail way down and get rid of ultra-contrast to make the video look good. This negates any imagined deficit of decreased resolution.

In interlaced mode, where the ultra-crisp and sharp picture is part of the look sometimes, I suppose the more resolution the better. But I've seen a lot of video that would benefit from less "hyper-active" sharpness.

The resolution of Canon's 24f mode looks as good as any of the other 1/3" chip cameras--it's just that its interlace mode resolution is better. In that famous Texas shootout test, the Canon seemed to have the highest resolution, as I recall. You can afford to lose a little and not notice it. The loss is due to the way they achieve 24p from interlaced chips. I shoot most everything at 24fps with my XH A1, and it looks better than what I shot with a $30,000 DSR500 package (and it pains me to say that, but it does, in HDV anyway; I haven't shot SD for a comparison).

Are they compatible with interlaced video from the Canon (1080i)?

Yes, you can play 60i HDV or SD tapes from the Canon on the Sony decks, and you also can play Standard Definition at 24p on Sony decks, just not HDV at 24p.

Bill, I'm a little confused.
 

I always thought that the output of my 24f A1 was just a different form of HDV 60i put into a different readable format, so the basic question is this...

The Sony decks can't play out 30f or 24f properly in HDV mode? Is that what your experience has taught you on this one?

Once again, I thought that 24f and 30f on Canon HDV was just a different form of 60i and it could play out, in essence, because it's all 60i.

Please a little clarification in this thread, so we can all know exactly if Sony decks are completely out of the picture for playback and capture to editors.

I don't have experience with Canon 24f in Sony decks, but I can tell you that Canon 24f is not wrapped in a 60i stream. It is actually a 24 fps .m2t file. No pulldown.

This has been discussed a zillion times. It is, indeed, true 24p, though it's derived from interlace chips. When you play back an HDV 24F shot you get 24 frames in every second--no pulldown, no interlacing. It is progressive. It will NOT play in anything but the Canon HDV cameras. The consumer ones, ie., the HV10 and HV20 will play 24F even if they don't record it (just as Sony's consumer cams will play DVCAM even though they don't record it).

If you capture your 24p footage with a wrong setting, in FCP for example, or drop it into a timeline that is not 23.98, then you will introduce a pulldown because FCP will do that for you.That is not something you want to do--if using FCP, capture in 1080P24 HDV and edit in 23.98 HDV timeline.

If you shoot Standard Definition video instead of HDV, THEN you have the choice of real 24p or pulldown 24p, just like the DVX100 and XL2 cameras do. HDV is only 24p, 30p and 60i.

That's really bizarre. If it is true 24p, I wonder what's different about the way it's recorded when compared to the JVC HD100? I assume the JVC HDV deck can't play it either? And even the Sony can't play 30f through its analog outputs? Gotta wonder why Canon hasn't produced a deck of their own.

The JVC is 720p and it won't play on anything but a JVC deck. Presumably the Sony version of 24p won't play on anything but Sony. The manufacturers don't necessarily design stuff to make your life pleasant--they design to make more money. The fact that Canon has no deck works to keep it out of more professional applications, in my experience. I know of more than one studio using larger cameras who say they could easily go with a couple of XL H1s and XH A1s rather than replacing bigger more expensive cameras, but without a deck that plays 24p, it's out of the question. You can't have a little consumer camera sitting there for capturing footage with a client looking over your shoulder. It's too awkward and cumbersome and slow. I wouldn't buy them for the company I edit for because of that--we need decks. For indy things and personal documentary work, etc., it's fine, however, just a little cumbersome and not very elegant.

The JVC and Sony stuff are 'interchangeable', but only through the analog outputs. That's why I was wondering if the Canon 30f stuff would work via component outputs on the Sony or JVC.

For 24f, would it be possible to dub from the Canon playing 24f or whatever, to the Sony/Panny/JVC deck of your choice , and then use the dub to capture to your computer.
I know it adds an addition process step, and somewhat of a pain but you would have a robust deck that clients would be OK with, and that would be more durable than using an HV20, or HV10, as good as they are. I am thinking of picking up a Sony HVR-15 as I shoot mostly 60i for now, but would do the dubbing routine to handle 24f. Does that sound work-able to you?

Probably not. I doubt the deck can convert Canon's 24F signal. Anyway, it wouldn't be a time saver.

Agree w/Bill. And I don't think durability is an issue with the little Canon HV10 or HV20.

Save the step and just use it to get Canon Frame mode into your computer.

Buy a Firestore drive and skip the whole tape deck thing (for capture anyway). The Firestore is cheaper than a deck too.

mixing and matching..?
 

Just following on from this, if you shoot 25F on an A1 and 25P on a HV20, digitise it all in with a HV10, and work in a HDV 25P1080 FCP timeline (using the easy setup), how do you get your finished work back out to tape if that's what you want to do for archival or whatever?

Neither my HV10 or HV20 will take it in when set progressive (it's all choppy and stop start) but work fine at the 1080i playout settings. Will the footage be ok and progessive at the interlace settings? i.e. still 25F progressive? Or do I need to use an A1 as a deck too for playouts?

thanks for any pointers.

camera/deck to digitize Canon 1080i from A1
 

Just returned back from a 3 camera shoot. 2 cameras were JVC HD200's 720p60 while the third was Canon A1 1080i60.

We have the BRHD50 for the JVC footage but I need to buy something that will allow me to digitize the Canon. Whatever I buy I would like it to be able to playback ALL of Canon's formats. I've heard that I can just pick up a Canon consumer camcorder and use it as a feeder deck. Is this true? Looking online it looks as though the HV10 would serve this purpose.

I apologize if this post comes up a lot but I did search and didn't find anything obvious.

Thanks Canon people!

Your choices are the Canon HV10 and HV20 consumer HDV camcorders.

Thanks Chris. Looks like the HV20 has HDMI which would suit my Intensity Pro.

Next thing to do is figure out which format to edit in (720p or 1080i). I'll be testing the Intensity Pro's cross conversion capabilities vs. FCP's mixed timeline options.

Lot's of testing to do!

Justin:

I just edited a piece using both a JVC GR-HD1 (720P30) and XH-A1 (1080i60).

I worked the project as 1440X1080i as my destination was 1080i60 for HD-DVD players and most footage was from the XH-A1s.

Using Sony Vegas 8a, the 720P footage scaled in extremely well and the final result was great at 1080i. It was a little tough to color/sharpness match the two videos, as the A1 settings were a little over the top.

Bottom line, they work well together.

720P is 18k bit rate and 1080i is 25k bit rate. You have smaller files and final product using the 720P.

Jeff, thanks for the reply.

Thus far I have pretty much stayed at 720p which has been producing absolutely stunning 480p standard def DVD's as well as 720p HD DVD's which is why I'm tempted to edit in 720p (I know the workflow so well). I hope the 1080i footage looks good enough when cross converted to 720p. Unfortunately everything I've read so far says that it's easier to cross convert 720p to 1080i.

We shall see.

Anybody else producing 480p DVD's from 1080i source? Wonder how that looks.