Colour matching HV30 and XH-A1

[Brian Pratt]

RGN = -21 => -1
GGN = 1
BGN = 7 => 3

Replacing these values gets nearer to the mark - could've been a typo on the -21

[Brian Pratt]

I've been tinkering with a preset to match the HV20 and have tried to compare a few different presets, in the attached picture is an actual screenshot from my HV20 (top left), Luc's preset (see top right) with my modification in above post .. this was just a rough guess to take out the blue colour cast, below (bottom right) is one of my favourite presets (LowLt-3dB) which is very similar to Luc's (with mod) though the values in the preset are very different. Bottom left is my current preset that I created and use regulary with a few tweaks to try to get a similar look to the HV20 - its still not right .. the greens are a bit lighter and it needs a bit more work on it. Failing light here puts paid to anymore experimentation so I have another go tomorrow!

[Bill Thesken]

Originally Posted by Brian Pratt

I've been tinkering with a preset to match the HV20 and have tried to compare a few different presets, in the attached picture is an actual screenshot from my HV20 (top left), Luc's preset (see top right) with my modification in above post .. this was just a rough guess to take out the blue colour cast, below (bottom right) is one of my favourite presets (LowLt-3dB) which is very similar to Luc's (with mod) though the values in the preset are very different. Bottom left is my current preset that I created and use regulary with a few tweaks to try to get a similar look to the HV20 - its still not right .. the greens are a bit lighter and it needs a bit more work on it. Failing light here puts paid to anymore experimentation so I have another go tomorrow!

Looking at the mountains in the very back of the photos, the bottom right photo retains the best details.
So what are the values in this preset. I'd like to try it if it's for the XHA1. Thank you.

Or maybe I'm misreading the post, and the bottom right preset is Luc's with only the modification you have as above:
RGN = -21 => -1
GGN = 1
BGN = 7 => 3

[Brian Pratt]

Original HV20 : Top Left
Luc's modded : Top Right
My test preset : Bottom Left
LowLt-3dB : Bottom Right

Yes I noticed the mountain detail in the LowLt-3dB preset, by the way this was used at 0dB .. this preset might be a better starting point to replicate the HV20. Will post more details later.

[Paul W. Hazeltine]

Some may find this article from the BBC's R&D Department re: the Canon XHA1 interesting at http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp...Canon-XHG1.pdf

[Brian Pratt]

Ok , I've spent all day trying different settings and come up with 2 near matches, both using LowLt-3dB as a starting point but both ended up with different settings, but to me the end results are similar so I've posted both. The frame grab in the middle is from my HV20 in Auto mode.

Both are fairly close but not identical, anyone who has tried this will know what a long and labourious process it is as not all setting changes seem to take effect till it is committed to tape, then I import each trial into my editing software to compare scenes.

The shots taken with the XH-A1 are with no gain (ie: gain at 0dB) , Tv at 120th sec. Surprisingly the HV20 will take better shots in Auto mode than the XH-A1 as the A1 seems to default to a low shutter speed which makes for a not-very-sharp image at infinity focus. Camcorders were both handheld with OIS on.

Some of you may want to set NR1 to 0 but I've left it at Low for better lower light performance, and Preset 1 might look slightly closer (less blue) to the HV20 by making BGN= -1 (from 0).

If anyone can get a better match, please post results.

[Colin McDonald]

So Brian, let me check I've followed this correctly - the XH-A1 settings you quote above should let the XH-A1 match well with a similarly white balanced HV 20 or 30 (and 40 presumably) set to P, Tv or Av (but not Cine) mode?

[Brian Pratt]

Yes, I suppose you could match colours to most camera's given time and effort but for me I use a HV20 for cutscenes and I like the HV20 colours straight out of the box so getting a preset fairly close is good. I think I prefer Preset #2.

The original LowLt-3dB (by Wolfgang Winne) is an excellent preset, I think it is designed to be used at -3dB but I prefer it a little brighter at 0dB .. the values for this are ..

GAM N
KNE A
BLK P
PED -3
SET 1
SHP 3
HDF L
DHV 5
COR -2
NR1 0
NR2 0
CMX 1
CGN 20
CPH 2
RGN -2
GGN 0
BGN 3
RGM 42
RBM -15
GRM 0
GBM 15
BRM 10
BGM -1

I'd like to know exactly what altering settings for RGM, RBM, GRM, GBM, BRM, BGM does in reality as drastically altering these values doesn't seem to make a big difference to the end result - anybody clued up on this ?

[Brian Pratt]

I'm doing more testing on my HV20 Preset above - Preset #2 is my preference. On certain shots with my HV20 and XH-A1 I was getting some colour variations and I put this down to differences in white balance between the two camera's.
I've done some more tests - in the attached photo the middle two frame grabs are from the HV20 in P (Program) mode, the settings are identical to Auto (ie: standard/neutral) other than the whitebalance - as you can see the Auto whitebalance of the HV20 is drastically different from the Auto whitebalance of the XH-A1 whereas the Daylight setting of both camera's yields a similar frame grab (and the XH-A1 Auto whitebalance is the similar to its Daylight setting in this case!).

Conclusion: Don't trust the Auto whitebalance setting from your cameras, in this instance you can safely assume that with a reasonably bright but overcast day then the Daylight whitebalance with both camera's with this Preset will give an accurate colour match.
I've also included frame grabs from the HV20's Cloudy and Shade whitebalance presets for comparison.

Next test: Indoors.

PS: Only mod I've done from the my original preset is to make NR1=0.

[Raymond Toussaint]

Color correcting both cams depends also on:
. amount of available light / temperature
. using a wide converter on the HV30
. a wide or long shot
. the main color pallet in the scene
. using filters ( hmmm.. you know that)
. and finally the original settings

A wide or long shot with the A1 creates another 'look' then the same shot with the HV30, close is the HV30 detailed and rich, in the long shot you lose color quality to the A1.

[Kees van Duijvenbode]

Originally Posted by Brian Pratt

I'd like to know exactly what altering settings for RGM, RBM, GRM, GBM, BRM, BGM does in reality as drastically altering these values doesn't seem to make a big difference to the end result - anybody clued up on this ?

The matrix settings can be read as: C1C2M = determines the amount of Color2 in Color1 objects. When you connect your A1 direct to a good TV set and you change those settings you can very well see the difference between -50 and +50 of those matrixes.

[Brian Pratt]

So altering say RGM (Red Green Matrix) will alter the amount of Green in a Red colour ? In my test making the RGM setting more towards +50 will make a Red colour more red and a -ve setting will make it less red (making it more orangey) without affecting other greens ! Looking at a lot of Presets on this forum most people seem to leave these settings at 0 .. possibly not wanting to tinker with these intricate settings.

[Jean-Philippe Archibald]

I have done my own tests today matching an XLH1a (it's an XHA1 thread but since the a model share the same presets, I think it's relevent) and an HV30.

Indoor shooting using one tungsten Fresnel 1K light at 45°. Custom white balance using white card.

The first two frame are comparing the Cine_v preset on the XLH1a and the Cinema mode on the HV30. It's a close match but since I don't like the Cinema mode (too flat and unsharp), quite unusable.

On the second row it's the outsiden preset and some tweaking on the H30 as suggested by Taky Cheung on another thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...h-a1-hv20.html). Close, but the XL has an orange cast.

The last three shots are using the suggestion made by Luc de Wandel for matching with the stock value of the HV30. This preset is really on the blue side, like Brian Pratt said, so I tweeked it on the last frame changing RGN = -21 => -1. I like it, it's close but I need to refine it a bit more.

[Garrett Low]

Jean-Philippe, I would be very interested in seeing your results of further testing as I shoot with an XL H1a, XH A1 and HV20 and have tried for hours to color match them. I can get them close but the reds and blues between the HV20 and the other two cams are very different. The HV20 also seems to e much more contrasty which causes problems for the type of shooting I do which are stage shows under harsh spot lights.

Thanks,
Garrett

[Brian Pratt]

My second test to match the XH-A1 with the HV20. This time indoors under tungsten lights (typical non flourescent house lights).
This time I used Canon Console software which gives a live XH-A1 feed to compare with various frame grabs taken from a HV20 under different white balance settings, namely Auto, Tungsten and Manual white balance. HV20 in P (Program) mode with all colour/brightness/contrast etc variables set to off.

Attached screen shot shows XH-A1 manually white balanced with HV20 showing same scene using Auto and Manual white balance settings ( here both shots are reasonably similar to each other), the HV20 Tungsten wb shot (not shown) had a slightly more orangey cast to it but overall the colour matched fairly well with this preset in this scenario.

I now use 2 presets to match with my HV20, one (above) for Outdoor (daytime) and this for Indoor (under tungsten lights).

One thing to note is that the bluey coloured liquid in the bottle on its side (see screenshot) is in reality a more greeny colour but the HV20 see's it as shown in the screenshot, I've managed to replicate this in the preset without affecting the other blues and greens. Also if you prefer to use the HV20's Tungsten whitebalance setting then altering GRM from -10 to -16 and GBM from 45 to 32 will make the preset more accurate.

GAM N
KNE A
BLK P
PED -3
SET 1
SHP 3
HDF L
DHV 5
COR -2
NR1 L
NR2 0
CMX 1
CGN 17
CPH 2
RGN 1
GGN 0
BGN 4
RGM 31
RBM -11
GRM -10
GBM 45
BRM 17
BGM -26