Admin's Note: This thread was split from the "Battery Compartment Revealed" discussion at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=75699, in response to my statement about having access to the A1 and G1 for a short time.

Hey Chris, I also started out with a Canon A1 digital. It was a great little camera and I often wish I had hung onto it. I traded it in when I bought my first XL1 in '98 and it seemed like a deal at the time.

Anyway, since you will be seeing the new cameras in person can you take a few minutes and check out the LCD and how much lag or lack of lag it has in direct comparison to the H1, especially in 24f? Also, is there a way to have peaking on and still see the zebra patterns? That would be nice. Finally, any feedback on the iris wheel on the lens. How does it feel in relation to the H1 on the body. And one more if you please.......can you see if the new Canon Instant Focus or whatever it is called works just as fast in 24f? I am hoping that since it is external and not through the CCD directly that it can sample at a faster rate, even when the image processing in the camera is at 24f.

Thanks!

If I think of anything else I'll let you know!

I would love to see some full res HDV video up, but who wouldn't?

Chris, can you actually try hooking up a dummy battery plate and let us all know? I am trying to decide if I want to sell my Ch910 or not...

Thanks.

Matt

Well... there will be plenty of that soon enough.

I did that; pics are on the previous page, see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....1&postcount=30

Unless I'm misreading what you're asking. Working on a reply to Marty's questions above.

Tell us EVERYTHING! As full a personal review as you can. Kinda like people were doing for the hv10.

Yes, like the XL H1 there is a bit of lag in the LCD when shooting at any frame rate. It's more pronounced in 24F. Seems about the same as the XL H1, which I had here for a direct comparison.

Nope. Sorry.

No contest... I think most everyone will prefer the iris ring on the XH lens over the iris wheel on the XL body (the new XL lens though has an iris ring as well).

Hmm, it seemed like the response time in 24F was just a smidge longer than 60i, but even so, it's still amazingly fast... it's by far the quickest AF I've ever seen no matter which frame rate.

Nah, I really can't do that. I'm not much of a reviewer and I spent more time learning the thing rather than evaluating it. Specific questions, those I can answer. There will be plenty of reviews forthcoming, no doubt about it.

Thanks for the beedback Chris! Here are somethings I want to know:

- Can you use both the viewfinder and LCD at the same time (both on)
- Does it have the same settings as the XL-H1?
- The size: is it similair in handling to the GL2, or bigger, something like the Z1 (I have never seen/hold a XL-H1, so sorry for the Sony comparison)
- How is the low-light performance?
- Can the viewfinder be set to black & white?
- Does the camera have AV-out?
- What is the exposure range (how many stops till F/...)
- Does it have the "Boosted digital cinema functions
Total CINE control includes new Gamma and Color Matrix settings that are suited to direct transfer, by matching the characteristics of film." that are listed in the XL-H1 feature list?

24F... what does it mean? Is it something like the cineframe on the Sony's?

ok I'll pile on...things I am interested in:

1) Is iris ring notched per stop?

2) Is iris ring movement mechanical feeling (ie:like a normal lens) or is it servo assisted?

3) what about weight balance? does the camera feel front heavy or back heavy or just right?

4) Do the viewfinder and lcd seem very high-res? (as referred to in the japanese review)

-thanks for your camera investigation

Thanks for the replies. So....in your own opinion, if one doesn't need SDI out and interchangable HD lenses aren't in the budget, why would I want to keep my H1 and not get an A1 to replace it? Honestly.....now that you have seen it and know what it has to offer, what features of the H1 other than SDI and interchangable lenses would make you say "I'd still rather have the H1 because it has "X" features?

I ask because while I love my H1, I really streatched my finances to get it. And now, I am, well.......broke! To be able to achieve the same quality images at less than 1/2 the cost and get some of that cash back sounds really appealing. Plus I could afford a few extras....

Thanks,
Marty

Two-other questions I just thought of:

- Can you manually overrule the auto-focus?
- Can you place the viewfinder in a 45 degrees angle (can you tilt it up)

Yes, you can have both the CVF and LCD on at the same time.

Which settings are you referring to exactly?

I put it next to a Z1 and they seemed to be practically the same size. It's larger than a GL2 but smaller than an XL2 / XL H1. Comparison photos coming up shortly in a different thread.

I have a hard time qualifying that. The maximum aperture is f/1.6 at full wide, f/3.5 at full telephoto. Gain goes up to +36db but of course that's pretty noisy. Shutter goes down to 1/3rd sec in 24F but of course that's pretty stroby. It's at least on par with the XL H1 if all other things are equal (XL H1 max gain is +18db).

The flip-out LCD, yes. The color EVF, I'm not sure.

All camcorders in this price range have AV output.

Like the XL H1, it closes after f/9.5 in order to avoid diffraction issues common to very small f/stops.

It has the exact same custom preset features as the XL H1, but the range of adjustment for the color control parameters are more extensive (-50 to +50 on the XH series compared to -9 to +9 on the XL H1).

It most definitely is not Sony CineFrame. Canon's 24F and 30F Frame Mode technology has been discussed and debated extensively here at DV Info Net; please see our XL H1 forum for all you care to read concerning Frame Mode.

With AF turned on, you can manually override it simply by turning the focus control ring. When you let go of the focus control ring, AF snaps the image back into focus.

It can be tilted through a range of 270 degrees (from the normal position it goes to +180 and -90 degrees). Hope this helps,

No. It's not notched at all, there are no detent positions between stops. The iris ring movement is very smooth and quiet throughout the control range.

Servo assisted. There are no hard stops at either end of the control range and the ring will simply continue to spin if you move it past the wide open or fully closed positions.

It's not as light as the Canon GL2 but not as heavy as the XL H1. There's a bit more weight to the front than to the back, but nothing at all like the front-loaded XL cameras have always been. Ideally I would want to use both hands (left hand under the lens) as well as a shoulder support with this camera but I feel that way about all other camcorders in this class (HVX200, Z1 etc.).

Definitely. The individual pixels in both LCD panels don't leap out at me like they do on the XL H1 color EVF. Hope this helps,

Marty you've established that you don't need SDI or interchangeable lenses, so there are two things that still give an advantage to the XL H1. Four channel audio is one of them. You're limited to using two channel audio on the XH cameras. If you need three or four audio inputs than the H1 is the way to go.

The other thing, and this is hard to put a concrete value on, is the swank factor. The XL H1 has a much more bodacious appearance than the XH series. If you're in a business in which your client is directly impressed by the size, shape, sophistication and perceived coolness of the gear you're using, then the XL H1 will always trump the XH cameras. I mention this because it's actually a critical factor in some business environments, they want to look at your reel and see your gear. Show up with an XL H1 and there's no mistake, everybody just automatically knows what a "serious professional" you must be because your camera looks like something out of Star Wars and it sits on your shoulder. In some working environments this means everything... but that's a subjective situation that you'll have to evaluate for yourself.

If the XL H1 doesn't pay for itself within 180 days tops, then you should consider getting rid of it. Hope this helps,

[QUOTE=Chris Hurd]

"...If the XL H1 doesn't pay for itself within 180 days tops, then you should consider getting rid of it..." QUOTE]

Ha ha! Love that one, Chris!

I agree completely with Chris on the "Swank Factor".

I was recording a school's second grade performance on Tuesday for a friend. Many people came up and wanted to purchase a DVD since they thought the camera "had to take wonderful pictures".

Personally, I was very surprised at the number of people that had these feelings! Everyone assumed it was a professional camera. I assume that most of these people did not even know, or care, that it was a HD camera, they were just impressed with the appearance of the XL H1!

I get that all the time with my old SD XL2 (old... ha ha ha)

Appearance is a huge deal, but I think the XH cams will look awsome with a shoulder support, rail system and mattebox (maybe a follow focus) and then, of course, my Redrock M2

Which leads me to my question...

Chris, how do you percieve this camera will work with the Redrock M2? The max aperture zoomed seems smaller than my XL2, so the image will be darker I assume. Does the lens zoom in far enough read a 36x24mm frame off the GG, and will the lens focus close enough with the use of a spacer tube?

I don't know ify ou have an M2, so I think you're best guess will do until I have some empirical evidence.

Matt

Sorry, I have zero / nada / zilch experience with any of those adapters.

Hey, Chris, does the viewfinder and/or LCD screen do underscan or do they crop like the other Canons?

Good question Bill. I should be able to provide a correct answer by Wednesday night, but my money is on the cropping, just like all the other Canons.

Well, what is the minimum focus distance when zoomed in about 3/4 of the way? f it can focus within about 4" should be okay.


I would figured somewhere alng the way you would handled one. Oh well . thanks anyway :)

Chris, how is the handling? Is the build quality solid, are you able to hold it comfortably? And do you think it will make a good combination with the Spider Brace 2, which I already own?

Finally, you mentioned something about the electronic viewfinder tilt. From what I understood from you answer, it does tilt up as well as down? From the pictures, it looks like it can only be tilted upwards...

Finally, can it take 72mm filters with the lens hood attached?

I am not sure if you have read about the Sony V1, but am I right that the Canon XH-A1 gives you much control over the image especially through buttons on the exterior of the camera (so mechanically, not through menus)?

Dear Chris,

Can an HDV tape be duplicated from an XL H1 to an XH?

Will the timecode be recreated as it always was during a dub from an XL1s to another XL1s?

If duplicating a tape from an XL H1 to an XH G1, can you use the timecode out to timecode in, in order to obtain a dup with the exact same timecode?

Unknown. I checked only to see that it has a built-in macro mode, which it does... capable of getting focus on objects placed right up to the front objective (with the lens hood off) when zoomed out to full wide.

The build quality is solid, I am able to hold it comfortably as long as I'm using both hands, which I tend to do with any video camera. It should work just fine with the Spider Brace 2.

Note how the LCD panel is stored on the XH series... it rests on the top of camera body, below the top handle. When you release the panel and rotate it out sideways to open it, at this point it's already pointing straight down. From this position, you have to twist it 90 degrees in order to properly position it for normal usage. And from there you can twist it 180 more degrees so that it's facing forward. Hope that's clear.

Untested as I had no filters on hand, but I don't see why not.

I'm not as familiar with what external controls are present or lacking on the Sony V1. I can tell you that the XH has an iris ring on the lens while the V1 has a smaller iris control wheel set into the body. Please review the photos of the V1 and XH camera bodies and that will give you an excellent indication as to which mechanical controls each one has.

I'm sorry Dan, I can't answer any of these questions as I did not dub a tape from the XL to XH during the time that I had access to the cameras.

Chris,

can the image on the lcd be flipped ?? m35 adapter user here :)

Thanks Chris for all the touchy-feely info. One basic question, do you like the camera? Do you feel like it lives up to our expectations?

Chris, thansk for the information about the LCD, but I was actually referring to the electronic viewfinder (so where you put your eye against). Can you tilt it up like, if so, what is the angle of movement?

Like asked above, what is your overall impression? Would you buy this camera if you were going to buy a HD camera in the 3000 - 5000 price category?

would love to know this also. =P

That seems a bit extreme now doesn't it? I realize that as a general rule that might be okay for full time pros, but for enthusiasts that want these cameras and do side work to help "subsidize" the cost, that statement can't always hold true. I do independent films and music videos often just because I enjoy the artform and I make no money from them. My cameras have always been tools to help me achieve this. I do additional paying jobs to help offset the cost of the equipment but I don't think I have ever made back the money I spent on any camera in 180 days.

Personally I shoot 3-4 weddings a year and shoot professionally at my job 3-4 times a year (I get my regular paycheck for these gigs, but they rent the camera from me at $200 a day). So currently I do not make my living shooting (my fulltime job is an editor and animator of broadcast style graphics). I supplement my income and offset the costs of owning great camera equipment to allow me to shoot independent projects to fulfull my own creative needs.

I understand the value of the XLH1's looks....it does look professional. And that is a big reason that the company I work for rents it from me. They don't really even understand it's technical merits. They just assume it is going to produce a much better picture than a small camera.

I am still on the fence. As I have alluded to before, I just bought the H1 3 weeks before the A1-G1 were announced. I weighed the pros and cons of the available cameras and what sold me on the H1 was the image it produced. I couldn't really affford it without breaking the bank. But I knew that if I wanted "that" image quality I would have to pay "that" price. So I sold my HVX and P2 cards and for about 2k more I had an H1. And now I find that I could have sold my HVX and saved 2k instead and gotten the same image quality.......mama mia!

Add to my dilema I just moved to Canton, Ohio area and I lost a lot of my repeat business where I lived before so my extra paying jobs are down right now while I get acclimated to this new area. Hopefully business will pick up. I guess that is a big part of my considering switiching to the A1. If business was booming I wouldn't be so concerned. Heck....I'd probably buy one to compliment my H1 instead.

Oh well......enough of my blabbering. Thanks for all the pics and info Chris......I'll go ponder my future quietly now.

Sorry about that Marty but you asked me and I was honest with you. I would never recommend an H1 to an enthusiast. My own point of view has always been that this gear should pay for itself quickly, otherwise you're eating it on depreciation. In your particular situation, if you don't see your H1 paying for itself within six months then I think you should sell it as soon as possible.

You're asking me, the guy who started the XL1 Watchdog? Sorry, I ain't going anywhere near this question.

Good question. I'm not sure but I doubt it. At any rate I'll know more about the XH cams this week and will try to remember to follow up on this when I know for sure.

Okay, when you first said "LCD," I automatically assumed you meant the flip-out LCD. You are referring instead to the color viewfinder. Yes I know there's an LCD panel in there too but to avoid confusion with the flip-out LCD, this viewfinder is usually referred to as the EVF or CVF (electronic or color viewfinder). Canon refers to it as the CVF. For example in the display menu you can toggle LCD + CVF on, and have both running at the same time.
Anyway yes the CVF will tilt up about 45 degrees or so but it does not tilt down.

In all honesty, I think anybody who doesn't prefer a particular brand will have a difficult time choosing between the Canon XH A1 and the Sony V1U. This situation will only become more complicated if JVC and/or Panasonic announce something similar in this price range before the end of the year.

Chris,
I appreciate the honesty but all I am saying is that in my situation I have owned several cameras and never had them pay for themselves in six months. I paid almost $5k form my xl1 and used it for 4 years. I probably only actually made $10K-$12k in that time from it. But I sure used it for other projects that I had an artistic interest in in that time. When I sold it I still got
almost $3k for it. So I ultimately made money with it but not to the extent of paying for itself in 6 months. Same for my DVX and XL2. Paid for themselves by doing side jobs (albeit not in 6 months) and then came in awful handy for my own artisitc projects. I still got a good amount of cash for these when I sold them also.

The H1 is a different story though. It took me into a different price range altogether. So that puts more doubt in my mind. The A1 is actually in a lower price class than most cameras I have ever bought...and there is the appeal.
Still, I doubt I will make back the cost of that camera in 6 months. I'm not saying that I can't make that amount of money in a 6 month span usually, it's just simply that I didn't schedule much work because I was moving and that combined with a new area to do business has things very slow right now.

So let me ask this as you said you would never recommend the H1 to an enthusiast ( although I shouldn't call myself that as I do make at least additional $5000-$6000 a year using the equipment). What camera would you recommend? How do you determine what camera is right for someone who primarily uses the camera for their own projects that are not necessarily money making ventures yet does do enough work to offset the cost of the camera in the first place?

This is all an honest dialogue and not sarcasm by the way. I am just trying to figure the best options for me.

Peace!

Hi Marty, my answer to that is not sarcasm either, just being honest: the right one is whatever you feel you can easily afford without complaining about how much money you've laid out. For example a friend of mine in Chicago owns just about every Canon digital SLR they make, including the $9,000 EOS-1DS Mark II, and tens of thousands of dollars worth of lenses. And he's just a hobbyist, and he'll never do it for a living. But this is somebody who retired young and lives in a high-rise on Michigan Avenue. In other words, he bought what he can easily afford. If buying into a certain price range has put doubt into your mind, then my sincere advice, if you want it, is to sell immediately.

Marty, maybe the best thing you could do (my opinion) is sell your H1, if it isn't used much you sure could get around 7k for it, and then buy the A1 for 4k, and you'll have 3k extra :-).

That is exactly what I am contemplating doing. :)

My camera is now 3.5 months old. I have shot about 6 tapes worth of material in the camera and captured them one time also. So about 12 hours on the heads. I am completely happy with it other than the extra debt on one of my credit cards. If Canon hadn't introduced the A1 I would probably still be happy with it. I felt as though I had a camera that produced the best image without shelling out $50k+ for higher end cameras. So when you pay $9k and get image quality near $50k+ cameras you can justify the added expense. Then 3 weeks later you can pay $4k and get the same or better qulaity image as that same $9k you just spent.....and that still competes with some $50K+ cameras.......you can see the confusion I have. And I could be debt free.

The last step is does the A1 really deliver the goods? If I sell the H1 and then the A1 turns out to not create same quality footage then I would be upset. So........anyone interested in buying a lightly used H1??? I will be pairing it with the 16x manual lens too......so it will be a good bargain.

Peace!

I know you weren't being sarcastic. I just know in text things can easily be misconstrued and I wanted to be clear that "I" wasn't being sarcastic.

Peace!

OK. I have a few questions now.

1. Have you heard anything about the Wide angle adapter for this camera?
2. Overall do you feel the LCD is an improvement over the H1 LCD? Does it seem any easier to tell focus with?
3. Does the add-on mic clip come off like on the Pannys or is it permanent? I'll never use it as the on-board mic is usually sufficient except for when doing narrative work...and then I'll use an external mic on a boom.

Thanks!