Capturing vocal band?? at DVinfo.net

Raul Rooma · July 3rd, 2007, 03:01 AM

Hey guys!i just wondering is it good idea to capture live vocal band with 2 shotgun mic's?Like AT 897. mic's on separate stands maybe,and camera is xh-a1.Also is 897 enough good?better ones i cant afford right now i guess..

Eric Weiss · July 3rd, 2007, 05:41 AM

the best way is to go from the board. you can ask the soundman to help you out. bring another cam and plug it right in there. if it's not possible, you should be fine with shotguns. just watch your levels and placement.

Brad Tyrrell · July 3rd, 2007, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Weiss

the best way is to go from the board. you can ask the soundman to help you out.

Kinda depends on the boardster too. (Some are very good, others are someone's brother-in-law)

Really need a compressor/limiter from the board. I used the "over-easy"s for years with OK results (they're cheap). Try to get out on a post-fader pre-master bus. Sometimes I wasn't specific in the past... AAGHHHH.

Actually, the limiter/compressor effect you get with the A1 on auto isn't bad.

Don Palomaki · July 3rd, 2007, 07:20 AM

Run the AT-897 mic on phantom power - better performance in loud venues.

A cardoid pattern mic rather than a shotgun might be a better choice for the venue for ensemble pickup, shotgun is more for a point source.

Consider using a small recorder; e.g., MiniDisc or MicroTrack 96/24, on the sound board and sync on post, if the soundboard can provide a good balanced final mix. Use the tape output connection. Fewer cables to run and less chance of ground loop issues, etc.

Eric Weiss · July 3rd, 2007, 07:21 AM

brad's right...some are just terrible and they wont help you.
but it's worth a shot as you can get good results. cover all your bases and try both for ideal sound.

any board stuff i worked with was either from my own mini dat machine or the main dat off the sound system and synched in post.
i don't even know if they still use dat..it's been a while.

Raul Rooma · July 3rd, 2007, 11:40 AM

thanks guys!this at897's i have already,if to use something else i need to rent them.As i know,the live vocal band acts without any speaker system,just like choir or something like that.i was thinking the simpliest setup,so 2 mic's and xh-a1.Next step higher - i can run mic's throug roland's digital mixer where comp's and limiter already inside,and still audio to camera.And latest is to run mic's through mixer and record sound to harddisc.
But all setups going then bigger.I havn't done job like this before and no idea how my mic's acts in situation like that.But soon i figure it out ;)is it then good or bad...

Stacy Dudley · July 3rd, 2007, 12:30 PM

Don't forget a good set of cans for your ears (headphones). Prefferably a set that covers your entire ear and cancel outside noise. This will help to make sure that your mics are placed well, etc. You want to make sure you get a good mix of all the music and if you can't hear what's going to tape, you just might hate yourself when you hear the mix later in post.

If they do have a board and you decide to record from the outputs of that, be very leary. Not all instruments are run through the borad. In my band we only run vocals and a couple instruments through the board so the output to tape would be lacking a lot of the mix.

Good luck and have fun,

Stacy

Don Palomaki · July 3rd, 2007, 01:31 PM

Live vocal band, acoustic, no sound system. An interesting ensemble to try mic, especially with shotguns. How many performers? What sort of instruments or is it a cappella? By all means try get to a rehearsal or practice if you can to try different mic placement and to get an idea of what the levels will be.

If a modest size group (4 or 5) doing a cappella, you may be OK with the shotguns. There have been some interesting tips on mic placement on the Shure web site.

Raul Rooma · July 3rd, 2007, 04:25 PM

Thanks again for all replies!Yes maybe it is some mystery for you all ;)what a hell band is this,I live in estonia and here it like national tradition,
http://www.laulupidu.ee/ajalugu_peod_2019.php but what i need to record its like minimodel of this,maybe 20-30 mans singing,and crowd is enough little,so they can make enough loud act when they starting :)i'm scanning til around and looking for possibilities how to manage this quiet well.But thanks for replies,here is lot of thinkig...if i git the job don'e i hope to post some examples!

Brad Tyrrell · July 4th, 2007, 08:37 AM

I guess we didn't quite understand....

Just a thought...

I record quite a number of live performances and find that a single pzm does a fairly decent job when all the other options are complicated.

I use a Crown, phantom powered directly from the A-1 through up to 150' (so far) of XLR cable with audio on "Auto". When possible I mount it on a 2'x2' board and hang it, but taped to the stage works in a pinch. My backboard is black plywood, but clear plexi works fine if it has to be hung close to sightlines.

This is not the "best" way to record, but it works OK in a lot of "impossible" situations and is quick to set up. The hung version allows a bit directionality. I especially like a pzm in a "gym" type room to get rid of all that "cave" echo.

Not sure if this is any use to you but thought I'd mention it.

Jerome Cloninger · July 4th, 2007, 10:29 AM

It really depends on the band and venue. For instance, I shot something for my brother's band http://blog.jcdv.com/2007/07/03/pale-orchid-live-62307 and the sound guy they were using is awesome. He suggested miking the room instead of the board. Glad we did it, as this gave a sense of "wholesomeness" than coming from the board. This was firs time using these mics (Audio Technica 3033) and Zoom H4 recorder.

I did a bluegrass band (can't post a link to that one... sorry) and I came straight from the board. Sounded great, but they weren't as loud and the room sucked for acoustics......

I suggest, try it both ways during a soundcheck and go with what sounds best to you.

Raul Rooma · July 4th, 2007, 01:04 PM

Yeah!I forget mention that event is outside,so there is no room ambience etc.And yes,if they have sound man with his mixer and so (but they havn't)then maybe board sound is too clean,its important to capture good sound from artist but some other sounds give feelings and emotion to the video i guess.

Don Palomaki · July 5th, 2007, 06:33 AM

Visit
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/TechLi...cles/index.htm
to see a lot of documents covering various sound recording issues, including tips on mic selection and placement, and audio for video production. You may find the one of Microphone Techniques for Studio recording of interest for your venue.

Raul Rooma · July 5th, 2007, 07:31 AM

Here in shure website quiet lot of interesting reading,Scanning around here now!

Brad Tyrrell · July 5th, 2007, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

Visit
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/TechLi...cles/index.htm
to see a lot of documents covering various sound recording issues, including tips on mic selection and placement, and audio for video production. You may find the one of Microphone Techniques for Studio recording of interest for your venue.

Don,

That is a great link! My first reaction was that it just contained simplified beginner's handbooks, but making myself read further I started saying: "Oh, yeah, I forgot about that." "Hey, I've been doing that, but I never knew why." "Mygosh, no wonder, how could I have missed that? It's so simple."

We should all make ourselves read stuff like that once in a while. Thanks for the refresher.

July 3rd, 2007, 03:01 AM	#1
Raul Rooma Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estonia Posts: 113	Capturing vocal band?? Hey guys!i just wondering is it good idea to capture live vocal band with 2 shotgun mic's?Like AT 897. mic's on separate stands maybe,and camera is xh-a1.Also is 897 enough good?better ones i cant afford right now i guess..

July 3rd, 2007, 07:20 AM	#4
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Run the AT-897 mic on phantom power - better performance in loud venues. A cardoid pattern mic rather than a shotgun might be a better choice for the venue for ensemble pickup, shotgun is more for a point source. Consider using a small recorder; e.g., MiniDisc or MicroTrack 96/24, on the sound board and sync on post, if the soundboard can provide a good balanced final mix. Use the tape output connection. Fewer cables to run and less chance of ground loop issues, etc. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

July 3rd, 2007, 01:31 PM	#8
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Live vocal band, acoustic, no sound system. An interesting ensemble to try mic, especially with shotguns. How many performers? What sort of instruments or is it a cappella? By all means try get to a rehearsal or practice if you can to try different mic placement and to get an idea of what the levels will be. If a modest size group (4 or 5) doing a cappella, you may be OK with the shotguns. There have been some interesting tips on mic placement on the Shure web site. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

July 4th, 2007, 10:29 AM	#11
Jerome Cloninger Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: East TN Posts: 415	It really depends on the band and venue. For instance, I shot something for my brother's band http://blog.jcdv.com/2007/07/03/pale-orchid-live-62307 and the sound guy they were using is awesome. He suggested miking the room instead of the board. Glad we did it, as this gave a sense of "wholesomeness" than coming from the board. This was firs time using these mics (Audio Technica 3033) and Zoom H4 recorder. I did a bluegrass band (can't post a link to that one... sorry) and I came straight from the board. Sounded great, but they weren't as loud and the room sucked for acoustics...... I suggest, try it both ways during a soundcheck and go with what sounds best to you. __________________ Jerome www.jeromecloninger.com

July 5th, 2007, 06:33 AM	#13
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Visit http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/TechLi...cles/index.htm to see a lot of documents covering various sound recording issues, including tips on mic selection and placement, and audio for video production. You may find the one of Microphone Techniques for Studio recording of interest for your venue. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

July 3rd, 2007, 05:41 AM	#2
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	the best way is to go from the board. you can ask the soundman to help you out. bring another cam and plug it right in there. if it's not possible, you should be fine with shotguns. just watch your levels and placement.

July 3rd, 2007, 07:21 AM	#5
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	brad's right...some are just terrible and they wont help you. but it's worth a shot as you can get good results. cover all your bases and try both for ideal sound. any board stuff i worked with was either from my own mini dat machine or the main dat off the sound system and synched in post. i don't even know if they still use dat..it's been a while.

July 3rd, 2007, 11:40 AM	#6
Raul Rooma Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estonia Posts: 113	thanks guys!this at897's i have already,if to use something else i need to rent them.As i know,the live vocal band acts without any speaker system,just like choir or something like that.i was thinking the simpliest setup,so 2 mic's and xh-a1.Next step higher - i can run mic's throug roland's digital mixer where comp's and limiter already inside,and still audio to camera.And latest is to run mic's through mixer and record sound to harddisc. But all setups going then bigger.I havn't done job like this before and no idea how my mic's acts in situation like that.But soon i figure it out ;)is it then good or bad...

July 3rd, 2007, 12:30 PM	#7
Stacy Dudley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Longwood, Florida Posts: 71	Don't forget a good set of cans for your ears (headphones). Prefferably a set that covers your entire ear and cancel outside noise. This will help to make sure that your mics are placed well, etc. You want to make sure you get a good mix of all the music and if you can't hear what's going to tape, you just might hate yourself when you hear the mix later in post. If they do have a board and you decide to record from the outputs of that, be very leary. Not all instruments are run through the borad. In my band we only run vocals and a couple instruments through the board so the output to tape would be lacking a lot of the mix. Good luck and have fun, Stacy

July 3rd, 2007, 04:25 PM	#9
Raul Rooma Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estonia Posts: 113	Thanks again for all replies!Yes maybe it is some mystery for you all ;)what a hell band is this,I live in estonia and here it like national tradition, http://www.laulupidu.ee/ajalugu_peod_2019.php but what i need to record its like minimodel of this,maybe 20-30 mans singing,and crowd is enough little,so they can make enough loud act when they starting :)i'm scanning til around and looking for possibilities how to manage this quiet well.But thanks for replies,here is lot of thinkig...if i git the job don'e i hope to post some examples!

July 4th, 2007, 08:37 AM	#10
Brad Tyrrell Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Morristown, New Jersey Posts: 249	I guess we didn't quite understand.... Just a thought... I record quite a number of live performances and find that a single pzm does a fairly decent job when all the other options are complicated. I use a Crown, phantom powered directly from the A-1 through up to 150' (so far) of XLR cable with audio on "Auto". When possible I mount it on a 2'x2' board and hang it, but taped to the stage works in a pinch. My backboard is black plywood, but clear plexi works fine if it has to be hung close to sightlines. This is not the "best" way to record, but it works OK in a lot of "impossible" situations and is quick to set up. The hung version allows a bit directionality. I especially like a pzm in a "gym" type room to get rid of all that "cave" echo. Not sure if this is any use to you but thought I'd mention it.

July 4th, 2007, 01:04 PM	#12
Raul Rooma Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estonia Posts: 113	Yeah!I forget mention that event is outside,so there is no room ambience etc.And yes,if they have sound man with his mixer and so (but they havn't)then maybe board sound is too clean,its important to capture good sound from artist but some other sounds give feelings and emotion to the video i guess.

July 5th, 2007, 07:31 AM	#14
Raul Rooma Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estonia Posts: 113	Thnx! Here in shure website quiet lot of interesting reading,Scanning around here now!