XL2 image problem

John Mercer · August 16th, 2004, 11:41 AM

"However, understanding this might help us to stop chasing our own tails."

I think this is unfair Bill.

Firstly if there is a serious moire problem with the XL2 then the only result that matters is the full quality end one - i.e. native DV capture.

Secondly if we are talking about a problem with the viewfinder LCD and composite out to a monitor whilst shooting, then let's be clear about that.

I often shoot on the XL1s with an external monitor attatched to the composite out of the MA200, and this kind of thing is common, plus things like moire do become accentuated. It's not ideal but I have become accustomed to being pleasantly surprised when I finally capture the footage into the NLE.

Best regards,
John.

Bill Anderson · August 16th, 2004, 12:06 PM

John I think you misunderstand my intentions. I agree, there is a need for
an actual, true "this is exactly what was recorded" type of thing, and not what Clive has admitted to as being an interpretation of what he witnessed. An "interpretation" that could just as well be a pen and ink sketch as far as I'm concerned. And yes, you are correct, a native DV capture would do the trick- or at least it should be enough for a fair(er) analysis. But, taking this into account I have no idea why anyone would bother with this CREATED "representation" no matter how it was captured. On another note the gull looks superb and apart from moire testing, the smoothness of the background is very telling, not to mention other factors like the detail and highlight rendering etc. Clive is in a position that demands a more accurate approach than simply trying to describe what he feels is an issue. We need head to head comparisons and other fair methods of assessment.
All the best.

Jeff Donald · August 16th, 2004, 03:37 PM

This thread is starting to chase it's own tail. If we read Clive's last post, he says he is leaving the discussion.

John Mercer · August 17th, 2004, 03:05 AM

"This thread is starting to chase it's own tail. If we read Clive's last post, he says he is leaving the discussion."

Sorry Jeff, perhaps it is over until he responds further, but I thought it was quite interesting and it seemed to me that Clive left without answering the key question.

All he has to do is provide a native DV capture of the same image - then we can properly judge if the XL2 has a more than unusual moire problem.

Best regards,
John.

Antoine Fabi · August 17th, 2004, 07:53 AM

yep, easy...

just post a native DV grab frame...

Clive Collier · August 19th, 2004, 08:05 AM

Hi guys.

Just thought you'd like to know that I've finished my test of the XL2 for Showreel and I've managed to figure out how to eliminate the moire patterning that was evident when shooting in 25P mode. The magazine is at the printers today and we'll be out next week. As to my knowledge we are the first magazine to complete a full test of the camera, my publisher has agreed to send to article in pdf form to international subscribers at the
same time as it's received by UK subscribers, as international subscribers usually receive it a week or so later.

If you are interested, please email denise@showreel.org."

Jay Gladwell · August 19th, 2004, 08:11 AM

Clive--

Why haven't you posted the native DV capture as so many of us have requested? Sure would like to see it!

Thanks.

Jay

Clive Collier · August 19th, 2004, 08:19 AM

Sorry. Been busy lately.

Will post in a minute.

Barry Goyette · August 19th, 2004, 10:34 AM

Clive

Thanks for your information and feedback regarding the xl2. What was your solution in eliminating the moire patterning in the 25p mode?

Barry

Vamshidhar Kuchikulla · August 25th, 2004, 05:24 PM

What happened to this section ? no anwers....if clive left...somebody who has xl2....doesn't they observed anything about moire pattern.? Or no one is going to answer . This dv community is becoming fireworks...after releasing canon xl2.....
we fight about 8 bit .....found a solution lately but its 12 bit.
now with this image pattern issues.......no solution or hiding...may be canon guys might be observing this forum carefully.. might be coming with an answer..well....its hot in jamaica...everybody is hot for canon xl2....... well thanx buddies and folks.........

vamshi

Barry Goyette · August 25th, 2004, 05:30 PM

varnshi

glad it's hot in jamaica...its nice, but not too hot here in california...

repeat after me....there is no moire problem...there is no moire problem...there never was a moire problem.....

hope this helps.

Barry

Vamshidhar Kuchikulla · August 25th, 2004, 05:38 PM

Sorry barry................i cant follow you in your band wagon....

keep cool my xl2 is coming soon.....if i observe....this pattern/that pattern ....you are going to buy my camera....?

Barry Goyette · August 25th, 2004, 06:09 PM

<<...you are going to buy my camera....?>>

Varnshi

sorry...got my own on the way...no money back guarantees here at dvinfo.net.

Look...if you read through the thread you'll see a pretty good consensus amongst the more experienced voices that moire is a fact of life with all video cameras, and it has always been this way ....If you should stumble upon some with your new xl2 (which you probably will if you look hard enough) then you are in good company...(go grab two pieces of window screen and overlap them...see if you can do it without some secondary pattern --moire-- being formed.) This is exactly what you are doing with a video camera when you photograph a brick wall, or a set of venetian blinds...or a window screen. Monitors, tv's etc are even more likely to introduce moire (in fact as clive's stills show...they will show moires even when there isn't one in the camera image).

IF, and this is definitely an if.....the xl2 exhibits a higher degree of moire than another camera then it is simply because the xl2 is resolving at a higher, better, level...which is what we all keep saying that we want.... DVX users have had to deal with similar issues relative to line twitter ( a form of moire) as the resolution of the camera in progressive mode is simply higher that it needs to be for SD monitors (but play it back on a HD set and you'll watch the patterning go away and swear the image is HD).

Varnshi...if you get moire in an image, there are several strategies for dealing with it...and they are detailed earlier in this thread. Its your job as a videographer to understand not only how good your medium is, but also its shortcomings and limits, and to take the appropriate steps to avoid those shortcomings.

I think I'm out of hot air for awhile.

Cheers

Barry

Chris Hurd · August 25th, 2004, 07:03 PM

Doesn't sound like hot air to me -- sounds like an experienced operator who definitely knows what he's talking about. Thanks as always Barry,

Jim Giberti · August 25th, 2004, 10:07 PM

<<IF, and this is definitely an if.....the xl2 exhibits a higher degree of moire than another camera then it is simply because the xl2 is resolving at a higher, better, level...which is what we all keep saying that we want.... DVX users have had to deal with similar issues relative to line twitter ( a form of moire) as the resolution of the camera in progressive mode is simply higher that it needs to be for SD monitors (but play it back on a HD set and you'll watch the patterning go away and swear the image is HD).
>>

This is an interesting point Barry. I've actually never viewed any of our work directly on an HD monitor because...well, I've never shot in HD. Are you saying that, in theory, Xl2 footage will look similar to HD on an HD monitor?

August 16th, 2004, 03:37 PM	#63
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	This thread is starting to chase it's own tail. If we read Clive's last post, he says he is leaving the discussion. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 25th, 2004, 05:24 PM	#70
Vamshidhar Kuchikulla Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: ocho rios Posts: 45	hi everybody... What happened to this section ? no anwers....if clive left...somebody who has xl2....doesn't they observed anything about moire pattern.? Or no one is going to answer . This dv community is becoming fireworks...after releasing canon xl2..... we fight about 8 bit .....found a solution lately but its 12 bit. now with this image pattern issues.......no solution or hiding...may be canon guys might be observing this forum carefully.. might be coming with an answer..well....its hot in jamaica...everybody is hot for canon xl2....... well thanx buddies and folks......... vamshi

August 25th, 2004, 05:38 PM	#72
Vamshidhar Kuchikulla Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: ocho rios Posts: 45	hi barry Sorry barry................i cant follow you in your band wagon.... keep cool my xl2 is coming soon.....if i observe....this pattern/that pattern ....you are going to buy my camera....?

August 25th, 2004, 07:03 PM	#74
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Doesn't sound like hot air to me -- sounds like an experienced operator who definitely knows what he's talking about. Thanks as always Barry, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 16th, 2004, 11:41 AM	#61
John Mercer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 73	"However, understanding this might help us to stop chasing our own tails." I think this is unfair Bill. Firstly if there is a serious moire problem with the XL2 then the only result that matters is the full quality end one - i.e. native DV capture. Secondly if we are talking about a problem with the viewfinder LCD and composite out to a monitor whilst shooting, then let's be clear about that. I often shoot on the XL1s with an external monitor attatched to the composite out of the MA200, and this kind of thing is common, plus things like moire do become accentuated. It's not ideal but I have become accustomed to being pleasantly surprised when I finally capture the footage into the NLE. Best regards, John.

August 16th, 2004, 12:06 PM	#62
Bill Anderson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ottawa. Canada Posts: 163	John I think you misunderstand my intentions. I agree, there is a need for an actual, true "this is exactly what was recorded" type of thing, and not what Clive has admitted to as being an interpretation of what he witnessed. An "interpretation" that could just as well be a pen and ink sketch as far as I'm concerned. And yes, you are correct, a native DV capture would do the trick- or at least it should be enough for a fair(er) analysis. But, taking this into account I have no idea why anyone would bother with this CREATED "representation" no matter how it was captured. On another note the gull looks superb and apart from moire testing, the smoothness of the background is very telling, not to mention other factors like the detail and highlight rendering etc. Clive is in a position that demands a more accurate approach than simply trying to describe what he feels is an issue. We need head to head comparisons and other fair methods of assessment. All the best.

August 17th, 2004, 03:05 AM	#64
John Mercer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 73	"This thread is starting to chase it's own tail. If we read Clive's last post, he says he is leaving the discussion." Sorry Jeff, perhaps it is over until he responds further, but I thought it was quite interesting and it seemed to me that Clive left without answering the key question. All he has to do is provide a native DV capture of the same image - then we can properly judge if the XL2 has a more than unusual moire problem. Best regards, John.

August 17th, 2004, 07:53 AM	#65
Antoine Fabi Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: sherbrooke (Quebec) Canada Posts: 108	yep, easy... just post a native DV grab frame...

August 19th, 2004, 08:05 AM	#66
Clive Collier New Boot Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 18	Hi guys. Just thought you'd like to know that I've finished my test of the XL2 for Showreel and I've managed to figure out how to eliminate the moire patterning that was evident when shooting in 25P mode. The magazine is at the printers today and we'll be out next week. As to my knowledge we are the first magazine to complete a full test of the camera, my publisher has agreed to send to article in pdf form to international subscribers at the same time as it's received by UK subscribers, as international subscribers usually receive it a week or so later. If you are interested, please email denise@showreel.org."

August 19th, 2004, 08:11 AM	#67
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	Clive-- Why haven't you posted the native DV capture as so many of us have requested? Sure would like to see it! Thanks. Jay

August 19th, 2004, 08:19 AM	#68
Clive Collier New Boot Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 18	Sorry. Been busy lately. Will post in a minute.

August 19th, 2004, 10:34 AM	#69
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Clive Thanks for your information and feedback regarding the xl2. What was your solution in eliminating the moire patterning in the 25p mode? Barry

August 25th, 2004, 05:30 PM	#71
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	varnshi glad it's hot in jamaica...its nice, but not too hot here in california... repeat after me....there is no moire problem...there is no moire problem...there never was a moire problem..... hope this helps. Barry

August 25th, 2004, 06:09 PM	#73
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	<<...you are going to buy my camera....?>> Varnshi sorry...got my own on the way...no money back guarantees here at dvinfo.net. Look...if you read through the thread you'll see a pretty good consensus amongst the more experienced voices that moire is a fact of life with all video cameras, and it has always been this way ....If you should stumble upon some with your new xl2 (which you probably will if you look hard enough) then you are in good company...(go grab two pieces of window screen and overlap them...see if you can do it without some secondary pattern --moire-- being formed.) This is exactly what you are doing with a video camera when you photograph a brick wall, or a set of venetian blinds...or a window screen. Monitors, tv's etc are even more likely to introduce moire (in fact as clive's stills show...they will show moires even when there isn't one in the camera image). IF, and this is definitely an if.....the xl2 exhibits a higher degree of moire than another camera then it is simply because the xl2 is resolving at a higher, better, level...which is what we all keep saying that we want.... DVX users have had to deal with similar issues relative to line twitter ( a form of moire) as the resolution of the camera in progressive mode is simply higher that it needs to be for SD monitors (but play it back on a HD set and you'll watch the patterning go away and swear the image is HD). Varnshi...if you get moire in an image, there are several strategies for dealing with it...and they are detailed earlier in this thread. Its your job as a videographer to understand not only how good your medium is, but also its shortcomings and limits, and to take the appropriate steps to avoid those shortcomings. I think I'm out of hot air for awhile. Cheers Barry

August 25th, 2004, 10:07 PM	#75
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<IF, and this is definitely an if.....the xl2 exhibits a higher degree of moire than another camera then it is simply because the xl2 is resolving at a higher, better, level...which is what we all keep saying that we want.... DVX users have had to deal with similar issues relative to line twitter ( a form of moire) as the resolution of the camera in progressive mode is simply higher that it needs to be for SD monitors (but play it back on a HD set and you'll watch the patterning go away and swear the image is HD). >> This is an interesting point Barry. I've actually never viewed any of our work directly on an HD monitor because...well, I've never shot in HD. Are you saying that, in theory, Xl2 footage will look similar to HD on an HD monitor?