Second Impressions: Thoughts on Color & Sharpness

Marty Hudzik · September 22nd, 2004, 09:21 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Guy : This is good for me, and others that plan on shooting scripted stuff, but I understand how someone in your position could be disappointed. Maybe you should just return the camera? -->>>

Well therein lies part of my dilemma. While I do corporate and event videography to pay my bills, I also shoot low budget (read no budget!) short fiction pieces for a hobby. I don't pretend to think that it will be converted to film anytime soon but I still like the look of the camera for that! Damn it does look very clean!

And let's be honest....we all want to have the most awesome camera and the highest image quality. Even when it may not be financially justified it is hard not to want to have the biggest and baddest!

The sad thing is I may have to make this decision based totally on finances. I'd rather have the XL2 with all of the accessories. But given the curent financial status I can have the DVX100A, case, all of the batteries, anamorphic adapter and a 16x9 field monitor and still come in just under the cost of the XL2 alone. And this isn't a cut on the XL2 but with the DVX and it's peaking circuit I don't absolutely need the 16x9 field monitor as I can tell critical focus very well on the LCD. So I could theoretically save even more.....and buy that new Hummer2 that I've been eyeing!

I guess I want it all! And I want it now!

Chris Hurd · September 22nd, 2004, 09:41 AM

Marty, I think you make a fair assessment there regarding budgets and camera choices. In my opinion, you really should sell the XL2 and move into a DVX package like you describe. When your XL2 comes back from Canon (and I have a feeling they'll find everything to be perfect to specs), it will have been cleaned and in like-new, mint condition. Which is a perfect opportunity for you to sell it here on our Private Classifieds board. I'm sure you'll have a buyer immediately, and you won't lose too much on depreciation since it's practically unused and fresh from CUSA service. That's your best course of action in my opinion. Hope this helps,

Marty Hudzik · September 22nd, 2004, 10:03 AM

Chris,
The camera was sent back to the vendor that I bought it from and they are dealing with canon directly for me. This vendor is one of the DVinfo sponsors and has been great to deal with. Pending the outcome from Canon, I will be dealing with this vendor to either replace my XL2 with a DVX100A or get the Xl2 back. I really want to keep the XL2 so I am exploring financial options currently that would allow me to get the accessories I need and therefore stop the endless worrying about which camera fits my needs better. I mean....the DVX obviously fits the financial needs easier now....but in the long run I am not so sure.
I really don't want to make a decision I'll regret.

Also....can someone agree/disagree with my statements about not seeing the quality of the XL2 on standard televisions and equipment? Is this to be expected? The DVX100 and Xl2 appearing about the same? This would help me greatly in deciding. If anyone thinks this is innaccurate and that I should be getting different results plese let me hear your opinion.

Marty

Barry Goyette · September 22nd, 2004, 10:11 AM

A few weeks ago, Marty and I exchanged emails, and I could hear in the back of his voice that he really missed his old girlfriend (DVXgirl) but that his new girl was so much... well....more exciting (you know, she's a supermodel...but definitely high maintenance). I recommended to him then that maybe he'd be happier (and better off) with good, old and comfortable. The problem for him now, I think, is that he's starting to figure out the XLgirl, learning how to get her to, umm.... put out. So his dilemma now is a little deeper. It's going to be hard to give up that oh so sexy 16:9...even if it's only in his studio...and he may never get to find out if there is a soul hidden under that hard body of hers. It's a difficult choice, and I'm glad it's one I don't have to make.

Barry

Edit: Marty---what is it with you and I always writing over the top of each other. I can definitely agree with you on this issue, I don't think there is much difference between any of the 3 chip DV format cameras on an SD television set. (largely because they all outperform the what a typical set is capable of). The differences would only be seen on some output device that outperforms the DV format...like a computer monitor, or an HD television. You've mentioned that you hoped that there was a way for your customer to see the difference you are seeing on your JVC, and you had a bad experience down at Circuit city....I hope you won't completely discount that the XL2 can look stunning on an HD set, and that this may be one way for you to feel good about your purchase. Realistically, though...these two camera's both produce great stuff..and the vast majority of your customers will never know the difference. If you feel more financially correct owning the DVX, then it's really the direction you should take.

Marty Hudzik · September 22nd, 2004, 10:34 AM

Barry,
I definitely have not ruled out that the Xl2 or DVX can look good on HDV sets. I even said that I was disregarding those results as I don't know WTF was wrong with that circuit city setup. I can tell you that my old pioneer elite 55" projection TV that is almost 10 years old now looks better than the HD set at circuit city. At least how they have it setup.

I am currently checking with my boss and seeing if the company (not my own side company but the 9-5 gig) can absorb the cost of the add ons that I need. You see.....I use my own personal camera (XL2 or DVX) for most of my work jobs. It was kind of like a perk that I got this cool video edting/production job and I had my own camera to shoot until the departents budget was increased. They have repeated to me that they would pay me a rental fee for the gigs where I use my own stuff. I never took them up on it but I might do that now. If they are willing to pick up the tab on case and batteries then I think I should stick with the Xl2. But personally I can't swing the extra cash right now which is why I started doubting the XL2 in the first place!

by the way...I love the DVXgirl and XLgirl analogy! LMAO!

Rob Lohman · September 22nd, 2004, 01:14 PM

Thank you for your great reply Marty. Makes it easier for me to
understand where you are coming from. Interesting read!

From your observations it sounds like the XL2 is probably best
for film out (in comparison to other DV cams) or HD work. It is
probably way better to correctly upscale this footage to HD in
the computer with something like s-spline (was that the good
application out there?) then just let a HD TV do this for you.

Would be interesting to see the differences on that (realtime
uprez and post production uprez) on one of those sets that
did so poorly and perhaps with some other camera uprezzing
tests. Now if i can just find my test bench with all the great
dv camera's of this world on it... hmmm, oh that's right, that
was a dream. Yikes.

As others indicated, the quality of most TV's is probably just
not good enough to see the difference in the quality and
actually make something look better than it is (in the case of
the DVX's noise). Leave and learn eh.

Good luck on your tough decision Marty!

Bill Ravens · September 22nd, 2004, 02:02 PM

Uprezzing in still digital photography has shown that improved results can be had by uprezzing in a step-wise process, in addition to using more sophisticated extrapolating algorithmns, like Lanczos. I wonder if this would apply to DV to HD? I've successfully taken DV source material and uprezzed it to WMV-HD using Vegas 4. The resulting was lower rez than the source material, but, not blocky, by any means. It may even be worth trying to render to uncompressed 720x480 before re-rendering to HD.

I'm gonna haffta go play with this idea.

Maya Taylor · September 23rd, 2004, 11:03 AM

Marty,

You are making a mistake if you go back to the XL2. You obviously cannot afford it...so why are you stressing yourself with it? For your financial situation you get so much more with a DVXA package. You are going against your own logic by rethinking of getting the XL2. The truth is if you were mainly doing scripted/fiction pieces then yes the XL2 would worth the extra money but yourself said that you do this for a hobby and don't intend to blow it to film anytime soon....so why the extra expense and stress? Do you really think that the poeple who are watching your hobby film are going to like your film better cause it was shot on an XL2 with a slighlty better resolution (as viewed on a normal TV). I understand always wanting the sharpest and cleanest image but sometimes the cost cannot be justified.
I am not putting down the XL2 or anything or even trying to convince you not to get it but after reading all your posts it just doesn't make any sense for you to get an XL2. I think Barry got it right by saying maybe you're more excited by the look and concept of "the sexy supermodel XLgirl" and are ignoring that the "old confortable DVXgirl" can probably do everything you need and actually fits your needs better.....

Good luck with your decision!

Marty Hudzik · September 23rd, 2004, 11:13 AM

The main reasoning behind wanting to keep the XL2 is that I am intending to use the 16x9 mode exclusively for dramatic fiction work. While both cameras are close in 4x3 as soon as you shot 16x9 the XL2 is much better. Especially considering that the DVX100A crops the image and stretches to achieve it's 16x9.

That is my main concern at this point. And realistically in the next couple of months I will be able to afford a 16x9 field monitor and extras. If I go with the DVX100A in a few months I will be kicking myself. I think. A appreciate your input but I am an admitted techno geek. I keep watching the footage from both and can just see the superior image quality of the XL2. That's what is killing me. Not the coolness factor of the XLgirl supermodel. In fact....that is a drawback as I am not as comfortable with the controls and layout. But the image quality just won't let me go!

I swear I am possessed by it!!!!!

Ahhhhhh!!!!

Bill Ravens · September 23rd, 2004, 11:19 AM

I've been getting approached a lot more by women since I got my XL2....
;o)

Marty Hudzik · September 23rd, 2004, 11:58 AM

Is that an XL2 in your pocket or are just happy to se me?

:)

Marty Hudzik · September 23rd, 2004, 12:02 PM

"I think Barry got it right by saying maybe you're more excited by the look and concept of "the sexy supermodel XLgirl" and are ignoring that the "old confortable DVXgirl" can probably do everything you need and actually fits your needs better....."

After re-reading this I got the impression that Barry was leaning toward the XL2. Stating that the DVX100 was like the old pair of shoes that are more comfortable and the XL2 as a new pair that are superior but feel awkward until you break them in. In this case getting comfortable wil the XL2 layout and design.

If what was intended was that I am just after the XL2 cause it's the cooler looking camera (hence supermodel analogy) then I took it the wrong way.

Bill Ravens · September 23rd, 2004, 12:10 PM

ahhh..."fan mail from some flounder...."
-Bullwinkle

I Love Mae West...

Barry Goyette · September 23rd, 2004, 03:46 PM

Bill...it's not the camera.....your fly is down....The only attention you will ever get from an XL2 is from men (unless Lauri or Maya happen to be in the neighborhood.) I had some serious relationship issues last week over wanting to take my xl2 with us on a date...My girl says I'm just a little to obsessed with the damn thing...too geeky...but I think its because all the guys were looking at me( or rather the xl2), and not her!!!

Marty...you read my post right the first time, although I'm not trying to lean you in the direction of one camera or the other...just trying to restate the dilemma in appropriately figuarative language...ok, that just took all the fun out of it!

Barry

Maya Taylor · September 23rd, 2004, 05:34 PM

lol Barry... you're right! A man with an XL2 will attract my attention and turn me on like crazy!!!! ;-) The size of the lens alone makes me drool..... (ok...this is going south real fast! ;-P )

September 22nd, 2004, 09:41 AM	#47
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Marty, I think you make a fair assessment there regarding budgets and camera choices. In my opinion, you really should sell the XL2 and move into a DVX package like you describe. When your XL2 comes back from Canon (and I have a feeling they'll find everything to be perfect to specs), it will have been cleaned and in like-new, mint condition. Which is a perfect opportunity for you to sell it here on our Private Classifieds board. I'm sure you'll have a buyer immediately, and you won't lose too much on depreciation since it's practically unused and fresh from CUSA service. That's your best course of action in my opinion. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 22nd, 2004, 01:14 PM	#51
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Thank you for your great reply Marty. Makes it easier for me to understand where you are coming from. Interesting read! From your observations it sounds like the XL2 is probably best for film out (in comparison to other DV cams) or HD work. It is probably way better to correctly upscale this footage to HD in the computer with something like s-spline (was that the good application out there?) then just let a HD TV do this for you. Would be interesting to see the differences on that (realtime uprez and post production uprez) on one of those sets that did so poorly and perhaps with some other camera uprezzing tests. Now if i can just find my test bench with all the great dv camera's of this world on it... hmmm, oh that's right, that was a dream. Yikes. As others indicated, the quality of most TV's is probably just not good enough to see the difference in the quality and actually make something look better than it is (in the case of the DVX's noise). Leave and learn eh. Good luck on your tough decision Marty! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 22nd, 2004, 09:21 AM	#46
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Guy : This is good for me, and others that plan on shooting scripted stuff, but I understand how someone in your position could be disappointed. Maybe you should just return the camera? -->>> Well therein lies part of my dilemma. While I do corporate and event videography to pay my bills, I also shoot low budget (read no budget!) short fiction pieces for a hobby. I don't pretend to think that it will be converted to film anytime soon but I still like the look of the camera for that! Damn it does look very clean! And let's be honest....we all want to have the most awesome camera and the highest image quality. Even when it may not be financially justified it is hard not to want to have the biggest and baddest! The sad thing is I may have to make this decision based totally on finances. I'd rather have the XL2 with all of the accessories. But given the curent financial status I can have the DVX100A, case, all of the batteries, anamorphic adapter and a 16x9 field monitor and still come in just under the cost of the XL2 alone. And this isn't a cut on the XL2 but with the DVX and it's peaking circuit I don't absolutely need the 16x9 field monitor as I can tell critical focus very well on the LCD. So I could theoretically save even more.....and buy that new Hummer2 that I've been eyeing! I guess I want it all! And I want it now!

September 22nd, 2004, 10:03 AM	#48
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	Chris, The camera was sent back to the vendor that I bought it from and they are dealing with canon directly for me. This vendor is one of the DVinfo sponsors and has been great to deal with. Pending the outcome from Canon, I will be dealing with this vendor to either replace my XL2 with a DVX100A or get the Xl2 back. I really want to keep the XL2 so I am exploring financial options currently that would allow me to get the accessories I need and therefore stop the endless worrying about which camera fits my needs better. I mean....the DVX obviously fits the financial needs easier now....but in the long run I am not so sure. I really don't want to make a decision I'll regret. Also....can someone agree/disagree with my statements about not seeing the quality of the XL2 on standard televisions and equipment? Is this to be expected? The DVX100 and Xl2 appearing about the same? This would help me greatly in deciding. If anyone thinks this is innaccurate and that I should be getting different results plese let me hear your opinion. Marty

September 22nd, 2004, 10:11 AM	#49
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	A few weeks ago, Marty and I exchanged emails, and I could hear in the back of his voice that he really missed his old girlfriend (DVXgirl) but that his new girl was so much... well....more exciting (you know, she's a supermodel...but definitely high maintenance). I recommended to him then that maybe he'd be happier (and better off) with good, old and comfortable. The problem for him now, I think, is that he's starting to figure out the XLgirl, learning how to get her to, umm.... put out. So his dilemma now is a little deeper. It's going to be hard to give up that oh so sexy 16:9...even if it's only in his studio...and he may never get to find out if there is a soul hidden under that hard body of hers. It's a difficult choice, and I'm glad it's one I don't have to make. Barry Edit: Marty---what is it with you and I always writing over the top of each other. I can definitely agree with you on this issue, I don't think there is much difference between any of the 3 chip DV format cameras on an SD television set. (largely because they all outperform the what a typical set is capable of). The differences would only be seen on some output device that outperforms the DV format...like a computer monitor, or an HD television. You've mentioned that you hoped that there was a way for your customer to see the difference you are seeing on your JVC, and you had a bad experience down at Circuit city....I hope you won't completely discount that the XL2 can look stunning on an HD set, and that this may be one way for you to feel good about your purchase. Realistically, though...these two camera's both produce great stuff..and the vast majority of your customers will never know the difference. If you feel more financially correct owning the DVX, then it's really the direction you should take.

September 22nd, 2004, 10:34 AM	#50
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	Barry, I definitely have not ruled out that the Xl2 or DVX can look good on HDV sets. I even said that I was disregarding those results as I don't know WTF was wrong with that circuit city setup. I can tell you that my old pioneer elite 55" projection TV that is almost 10 years old now looks better than the HD set at circuit city. At least how they have it setup. I am currently checking with my boss and seeing if the company (not my own side company but the 9-5 gig) can absorb the cost of the add ons that I need. You see.....I use my own personal camera (XL2 or DVX) for most of my work jobs. It was kind of like a perk that I got this cool video edting/production job and I had my own camera to shoot until the departents budget was increased. They have repeated to me that they would pay me a rental fee for the gigs where I use my own stuff. I never took them up on it but I might do that now. If they are willing to pick up the tab on case and batteries then I think I should stick with the Xl2. But personally I can't swing the extra cash right now which is why I started doubting the XL2 in the first place! by the way...I love the DVXgirl and XLgirl analogy! LMAO!

September 22nd, 2004, 02:02 PM	#52
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Uprezzing in still digital photography has shown that improved results can be had by uprezzing in a step-wise process, in addition to using more sophisticated extrapolating algorithmns, like Lanczos. I wonder if this would apply to DV to HD? I've successfully taken DV source material and uprezzed it to WMV-HD using Vegas 4. The resulting was lower rez than the source material, but, not blocky, by any means. It may even be worth trying to render to uncompressed 720x480 before re-rendering to HD. I'm gonna haffta go play with this idea.

September 23rd, 2004, 11:03 AM	#53
Maya Taylor New Boot Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 21	Marty, You are making a mistake if you go back to the XL2. You obviously cannot afford it...so why are you stressing yourself with it? For your financial situation you get so much more with a DVXA package. You are going against your own logic by rethinking of getting the XL2. The truth is if you were mainly doing scripted/fiction pieces then yes the XL2 would worth the extra money but yourself said that you do this for a hobby and don't intend to blow it to film anytime soon....so why the extra expense and stress? Do you really think that the poeple who are watching your hobby film are going to like your film better cause it was shot on an XL2 with a slighlty better resolution (as viewed on a normal TV). I understand always wanting the sharpest and cleanest image but sometimes the cost cannot be justified. I am not putting down the XL2 or anything or even trying to convince you not to get it but after reading all your posts it just doesn't make any sense for you to get an XL2. I think Barry got it right by saying maybe you're more excited by the look and concept of "the sexy supermodel XLgirl" and are ignoring that the "old confortable DVXgirl" can probably do everything you need and actually fits your needs better..... Good luck with your decision!

September 23rd, 2004, 11:13 AM	#54
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	The main reasoning behind wanting to keep the XL2 is that I am intending to use the 16x9 mode exclusively for dramatic fiction work. While both cameras are close in 4x3 as soon as you shot 16x9 the XL2 is much better. Especially considering that the DVX100A crops the image and stretches to achieve it's 16x9. That is my main concern at this point. And realistically in the next couple of months I will be able to afford a 16x9 field monitor and extras. If I go with the DVX100A in a few months I will be kicking myself. I think. A appreciate your input but I am an admitted techno geek. I keep watching the footage from both and can just see the superior image quality of the XL2. That's what is killing me. Not the coolness factor of the XLgirl supermodel. In fact....that is a drawback as I am not as comfortable with the controls and layout. But the image quality just won't let me go! I swear I am possessed by it!!!!! Ahhhhhh!!!!

September 23rd, 2004, 11:19 AM	#55
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I've been getting approached a lot more by women since I got my XL2.... ;o)

September 23rd, 2004, 11:58 AM	#56
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	Is that an XL2 in your pocket or are just happy to se me? :)

September 23rd, 2004, 12:02 PM	#57
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	"I think Barry got it right by saying maybe you're more excited by the look and concept of "the sexy supermodel XLgirl" and are ignoring that the "old confortable DVXgirl" can probably do everything you need and actually fits your needs better....." After re-reading this I got the impression that Barry was leaning toward the XL2. Stating that the DVX100 was like the old pair of shoes that are more comfortable and the XL2 as a new pair that are superior but feel awkward until you break them in. In this case getting comfortable wil the XL2 layout and design. If what was intended was that I am just after the XL2 cause it's the cooler looking camera (hence supermodel analogy) then I took it the wrong way.

September 23rd, 2004, 12:10 PM	#58
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	ahhh..."fan mail from some flounder...." -Bullwinkle I Love Mae West...

September 23rd, 2004, 03:46 PM	#59
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Bill...it's not the camera.....your fly is down....The only attention you will ever get from an XL2 is from men (unless Lauri or Maya happen to be in the neighborhood.) I had some serious relationship issues last week over wanting to take my xl2 with us on a date...My girl says I'm just a little to obsessed with the damn thing...too geeky...but I think its because all the guys were looking at me( or rather the xl2), and not her!!! Marty...you read my post right the first time, although I'm not trying to lean you in the direction of one camera or the other...just trying to restate the dilemma in appropriately figuarative language...ok, that just took all the fun out of it! Barry

September 23rd, 2004, 05:34 PM	#60
Maya Taylor New Boot Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 21	lol Barry... you're right! A man with an XL2 will attract my attention and turn me on like crazy!!!! ;-) The size of the lens alone makes me drool..... (ok...this is going south real fast! ;-P )