Is it known whether the new full spec HD-SDI on the XL-H1s is now actual 10-bit? Or still 8-bit stuffed into 10?

Solid State Life Expectancy
 

No one in this thread has mentioned the life expectancy of solid state devices, which kinda surprises me. All current solid state memory devices have quite limited life expectancy as *every* write operation is destructive to the device. This is why the on-board logic purposely fragments files to spread the data "randomly" over the memory area. Read operations, however, are non-destructive. Since the solid state device will be storing huge amounts of data on a regular basis (much more so than regular USB thumb drive-type devices often used for storing documents), it is much more likely that the same pieces of memory will be written to much more frequently, and therefore are more likely to cause physical failures to the memory modules. Reading and writing to a hard drive is non-destructive, but of course you have mechanical issues with hard drives.

First I've heard of it--could you post links to a white paper or other reputable source on this? And/or quantify "quite limited life expectancy"?

The reports I've read are 100,000 cycles.

That's the same figure I've heard. While 100,000 sounds like a lot, when you consider that even with the on board logic randomizing the location of data on the memory chips, with the amount of data being stored on these devices, each memory location is going to get written to pretty frequently!

I heard a report of someone testing a CF card and killing it within one day when it was used as the Windows XP swap file and subjected to "normal use".

Here are some sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Memory_wear
"For high reliability data storage, however, it is not advisable to use flash memory that has been through a large number of programming cycles"



Another article said you don't need to worry about it...
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html

Clue to Canon developing their own HD codec?
 

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...-H1A-34876.htm

Interesting comments in the interview they did with Canon ...

Apparantly, they take it as clues that Canon is actually developing thier own HD codec for their next gen solid state camera.

While at the Canon booth yesterday, I asked and was told there is no change. It is still 8-bit with 2-zero bits. Going to 10 bit would require a whole new sensor block.

which is a hint towards future developments? =D

Canon are going to be eaten alive and rightly so. It happened to them in the Pro DSLR market with Nikon's D3 seeing a flood of once loyal canon pros flocking to the 'other side'. Now I can see the same thing happening in the HD arena.

Well, Paul, you need to remember something about the Canon vs Nikon war : About 2 years ago, when Canon released the first full-frame DSLR on the market, it was Nikon who lost a lot of its faithful users! Back before the D300 and D3 relase, Nikon was lagging behind Canon because it struggled with its sensors' noise and sensivity while Canon's CMOS were better, and I know a lot of Nikon users who "migrated" over to Canon. For now, the D3 might be better on some levels than the 1DMKIII, but who knows how Canon's next DSLRs are gonna be?

I don't think you can really compare the armlock Canon and Nikon are in to what's happening in HD video ; Canon clearly plays safely here instead of innovating like it does in the still photography world. Yeah, many of us are dissapointed, but if they're developping a better workflow for their next XL series models and need more time for their tech to be more cost/effective, I rather like the fact that they didn't rush their dev to get a bugged (or worse, a mock-up) XL-H2 just for show at NAB. They addressed some issues here, like a better servo lens and greater button customization options. It's not the best upgrade ever, and yes, it's dissapointing that the CCD block is the same 2 years-old technology, but the fact that they got a camcorder without HD-SDI outputs at 3000$ less might get people like me to upgrade to HD soon.

Why should a new camera model always mean you should feel the urging need to upgrade? Even if a 2-year camera is "old" by our standards now, the XL-H1 is still making pretty great pictures, so get out there and shoot until Canon gets their real XL-H2 out in a year or two!! :-P

Cheers!

i agree w/Gabriel, innovating so quick is actually dangerous because it makes new Canon buyers leery of buying something that loses so much of its value the moment u get it (like new cars). it's actually good that users of XL1/2 series can still keep upgrading to new XL lenses while new HD XLH1 and its variants can tape the existing lenses (HD or not) and integrate it into their workflow.

and BTW canon DOES have progressive CMOS in their HV consumer series. they can probably plug that right into the XL series... except for the reason Gabriel and i just stated above.

Gabriel and Yi -

While you have good points about canon pulling the next best thing out of their hat with the XL-H2, my problem is that I'm going to be upgrading in the next 2-3 months - and with the XL gear & lenses I have, I cant use them in HD shooting, so that is a moot point in terms of trying to sell loyalty.

I love my XL1s's, however I can't keep waiting - holding out hope for what canon does next. While the XL-H2 may be the most amazing thing, I'm looking to buy now, so canon has just lost my money as whatever I purchase, I'm intending it to have a 3-4 year life span. So even if the XL-H2 comes out next year, it will be too late for me

Given the option of 1/2" sensor in the EX series, that is something that can't be ignored - i'm even considering jumping up to an HVX500 with its 2/3" sensors.

I am still kicking around JVC's 200/250 series, sony Z270 or even the XH series, If the larger sensor blocks aren't to my liking.

Sorry Canon - too little - too late
~Mike

Sorry Mike! But, if you can't shoot good video with the new XLH1A or the XLH1s basically you can't shoot good video. Love my XLH1 and have no need to upgrade at all. Never a problem, never a drop-out, no issues at all. If I want to slap a hard-drive on it I'll do it---actually did as I had a Firestore, but didn't really need it. My 3x lens and my 16x manual lens work just fine and all of the other accessories I had work fine too. I would really like a 6x, but it is not in my budget right now.

I think that Canon will make a big leap in the future, but for now everything is intermediate. Just look at the problem threads that are here for some on the new cameras. This business should not be a simple leap-frog game, it should be real innovation. RED and other are changing the whole game. If you jump into something right now, as far as new stuff, you will probably get very burned.

Patience patience.

Mike too

Canon is in a great position (so is Sony) as they have a photography business. Canon has (only Nikon is better) the best glass in the world and once they can make it work (a 35mm sensor with Canon EF mount) on hopefully the XL-H2 but more likely it takes a little bit longer they have a huge market. Other companies will always have to use someone else's mount. Canon not. I think that within 5 years from now photography and film/video fuse. If you look at the speeds of the high end DSLR camera's, they are at 11fps in like 6k resolution. So they probably can do 3k in 22fps already. That's where the market is going. And Canon is in a relaxed position. I do think that they are lagging behind a bit, and that they should bring prices down otherwise they will lose many customers in the coming years. I just hope the new updates mean that they are taking their time for a true successor.

I do too! My DSLR is a Nikon, my video equipment is Canon. I go with what I like, not a brand.

The future should be very interesting and there is no need to jump on any format or camera now just because it is new.

M

Only imagine Nikon doing a D4x camcorder. That would make me happy. I doubt they will ever do that, but hey, one can dream!

NTSC/ PAL alarming news today
 

From the mists of Europe...

I was trying to pre-order an XLH1S with the firmware upgrade to switchable NTSC /PAL. I went to Creative Video in the UK, no mucking about and ready to pre-order. They told me a) that it was a simple firmware upgrade and always had been, (so what about the essential camera return to a Canon service center??? "However'" they said "Canon have stopped doing this PAL / NTSC firmware upgrade as basically people were getting it done to facilitate gray export...... Well, three printable thoughts sprang to mind:

1) Who says I want to gray export it? I simply have American and European clients.

2) If Canon can afford to sell it cheaper somewhere else, they can sell it cheaper to us all. Nobody is having an easy time in the business at the moment.

3) If Canon don't want to take my $500 for a simple firmware upgrade, then they've shot themselves in the foot because they've lost a sale. I'm not into buying 2 identical cameras with different firmware. Even worse they will have blown their brains out too because I don't like those tactics and won't trust them enough to buy another of their products. WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE ..... SONY?

As a Digital Betacam owner I fear that Sony blew their brains out some time ago. Did you see their marketing slogan "Nobody knows your business better than Sony" . Oh yes? Well I do for a start! The cheek!

Come on Canon, it's too late for that sort of crass nonsense. We know you can do it now ,,,,, so do it!

I think it's fine that this is a minor upgrade, Sony's gear is three generations out of date before it goes to market and who needs that?

Instead of going to Creative Video in the UK, try going to Canon!

It's nice that your very first post on this forum is an attack on Canon. Go to the real source first, have Canon tell you that they won't do the up grade on your non-gray market camera then check back with this us here.

Many thanks----Mike

With the Scarlet being 2/3" and the XDCAM EX line 1/2", I think we can safely say that the Canon XL-H1/XL-A1/XL-H1S are the last 1/3" cameras. I hope they switch to 2/3" (APS-C would be even better).

Just watched an interview with Bob Ott, vice president of Sony Professional. He was promoting the new EX3. One issue during the interview which surprised me was that the SDI out is hobbled with 4:2:0 output and not 422 as one would expect.

Why why why do that??? Totally lame if you ask me.

At least the good old H1 does 422.

Firing on all Canons
 

A fair point Mike, however I do not have an XL H1S gray or otherwise, I don't think anyone has yet. I just tried to pre-order one, I would be buying from a serious Canon dealer such as the much respected team at Creative Video. They don't (I believe) get involved in the seamier side of camera import, or in the equally seamy business of camera and lens dumping - and nor do I. We would prefer to be seen as legitimate customers rather than potential smugglers. My point was that Canon can stop the gray market any time they chose by presenting a level playing field, These dealers are at the front line of sales and like me they need to know what it is that they are going to be selling. I report what they reluctantly said - reluctantly because they know such a move by Canon will damage their sales.

It may be that you have Canon's ear? And can gather information (relevant to their European market) that we European broadcast cameramen can't. if so maybe you know someone at Canon who can clarify this matter? I do hope so, I for one would be eternally grateful. The bottom line is I am ready to buy - I would rather buy Canon than Sony but a bit of clarity would be very welcome.


Incidentally, a 2/3 chip camera head would be nice, but my guess is that it is very unlikely in this XL price range.


With regards to Sony's EX3 4:2:0 output, have you ever known Sony to put all their eggs into one low end basket? The put something in .... and they take something out. It was ever thus.

It has never been possible to order a Canon XL or XH series camcorder with the NTSC / PAL switchable upgrade. Dealers are strictly prohibited from offering this service. Canon makes it available only to customers. You need to order the camera, and upon receiving it, send it to your nearest Canon factory service center for the PAL / NTSC upgrade, for which you pay Canon directly.

You cannot purchase the upgrade through a dealer. You can only buy it directly from Canon. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it is now, for all Canon XL / XH series camcorder customers worldwide. Hope this helps,

In the Sony EX1-forum they asked the same question about the EX1, and got official response that it was 10bit real 4:2:2 that you get out of the EX1.

Best regards,

Well this came straight from Bob Otts mouth, someone is misinformed, I'd hate to believe it was the VP of Sony Pro, stranger things have happened though, LOL

Check it out for yourself at ...

http://www.freshdv.com/

Its in the featured video list.

Personally I think he got it wrong based on other enquiries, next time Bob just sit there and look pretty, let a product management or techy answer the questions LOL

Ntsc/ Pal
 

Thank you Chris, yes, I've been following this on this forum and elsewhere. I am aware of this back to Canon stipulation. However, I've also heard that folk have persuaded Canon to part with the firmware on the basis that a camera is not a great item to ship about.

I am prepared to order an XL H1S through a dealer or from the factory with this firmware conversion already installed; and made that clear. However it was at that point that I was told that Canon were no longer offering the NTSC/ PAL option at all. This may be incorrect information, I do hope so, if it is I do wish someone would nail it and correct it.

NTSC/ PAL is what I'm prepared to buy. We know that it exists or has existed, that it is a possible. But once out there on the market, to take it away would not be good news at all, I'm sure we all agree on that?

If you are able to find out the truth of this matter you will be doing a lot of people a big favour. I am told by another London dealer that Canon UK at least are remaining tight lipped about it. You'll be pleased to hear that a number of them are following this thread. I hope Canon is too.

If that's true then you already have the correct information that you're looking for.

That's a mistake. With this forum, you don't need "elsewhere."

That's an entirely different matter. The firmware upgrade that you've heard about Canon providing to end users is *not* the same thing as the PAL / NTSC upgrade.

Nonsense. The reality of the video production business is that cameras are indeed shipped about as a matter of necessity; any serious camera owner knows that and takes the steps required to insure that their gear travels safely and securely.

And I have made it clear that this is *not* possible. The factory does not sell direct, and dealers do not have access to the PAL / NTSC firmware upgrade. You need to buy the camera first, and once it is in your possession, you send it to Canon for the PAL / NTSC upgrade. Your dealer is not involved in this process. But I've already explained that.

You were told wrong. Canon still offers the PAL / NTSC upgrade. It has never been available to dealers. It has been and still is available only to end users.

It's definitely incorrect information. I've nailed it and corrected it in my previous post, but maybe the second time is the charm.

You buy the PAL / NTSC upgrade directly from Canon after you have purchased the camera from an authorized dealer. You send the camera to Canon factory service. It comes back with the PAL / NTSC upgrade. That's the procedure. I don't know how to make it more clear than that.

It still exists, it is possible; you buy the camera from your dealer, then once you have it, you send it to Canon for the upgrade, which you buy directly from them. Canon sends it back to you with the upgrade installed.

It has not been taken away. You just don't seem to understand that it was never offered as a dealer option, and that it's up to you to buy the camera first and then send it to Canon for the PAL / NTSC upgrade.

A lot of people are *already* aware of the truth. There has been no change to the procedure for obtaining the PAL / NTSC upgrade.

It doesn't take very many words to say "nothing has changed."

I already know that.

I guarantee it.

Hi Dean, indeed there was a misunderstanding, and confusion, but the EX1 is *officially* reported to be a 10bit 4:2:2 live output.
It's fully expected that it will be the same in the EX3, and that his mistake was just that: a mistake. If you want to read details about it, this is the thread in the EX1 board:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=117419

I hope that clears some things up.
Best regards,

I hear a lot of people comparing the EX3 with the XLH1s. I understand folks are excited about the EX3 using bigger chips and being full-raster.

But, I just hope everyone realizes that the CMOS chips need to be debayered and will therefore lose about 30% of it's native resolution. So any advantage of full-raster sorta gets lost by going CMOS chips, does it not?

In the end you still end up with about 1440 pixels of resolution. The only real advantage being the chip size giving you a slightly shallower depth of field.

And a much bigger hit to your wallet.

Aren't you confusing CMOS chips with a Debayer sensor? Are they the same? I think not, but correct me if I'm wrong.
You are also forgetting that a bigger chip also captures more detail and gives better low light performance.

HA! I can't tell if Chris is angry or drunk but that was pretty funny. (of course I'm not saying that our fearless leader would be a drunk just that when I type clever things like that I'm usually 3 beers into an hour)

The timestamp is your clue. Before noon: angry. After noon: drunk. Late night: both.

Thanks for the reply Robert but the EX1 and EX3 have 3 CMOS sensors and do not need to be Debayered as they have no Bayer mask on them. This only applies to single chip colour cameras whether CCD or CMOS, such as RED, SI (that I know you are familiar with), Vision Research Phantoms, Dalsa etc

The EX's are full 1920x1080 x 3 chips......mmmmmmmm chips ;^)

I stand corrected.

Lens Adapter
 

Too lazy to check every post in this thread if it has been said before, but under "Accessories" for the XL series cameras, there is an EF lens adapter for the DSLR lenses.

Not new, but someone before asked if that was possible. Still doesn't make me want the camera, but I don't think it has been approached.

Come on, Canon!

Canon's EF lens adapter has been an XL series camcorder accessory for many years. The most important thing to know about it is the significant crop factor (7.2 times) which greatly magnifies the field of view of any EF lens when used on an XL series camcorder. For example a 50mm lens will have a field of view equal to a 360mm lens in 35mm still photography terms. In other words, *all* EF lenses become telephoto (or extreme telephoto) when using this adapter.

Man one day they should come up with.. oh wait it's in my signature

I'm sure Canon could build it if they wanted to. The question is - would they make any money doing so?

I think that we will see a Canon 35mm videocamera within 3 - 5 years. The technology is almost there. But I guess it is still expensive. And we are talking about huge amounts of data as well as heat issues. Canon is in a premier position as they have a huge assortment of 35mm glass. Sony has the same position, but all other companies don't have this priviledge.

But once these markets merge, it could also mean that companies like Olympus, Nikon and Pentax will enter the video industry. And I would be the first to buy a Nikon videocamera. Their glass is the best in the world. And my D200 is an amazing camera. As is the new D3.

Exciting times ahead.

In reference to Floris van Eck's post: I don't think it has been proven that Nikon glass is the best in the world. Canon is certainly a contender in that field. At the end of the day, systems from either manufacturer are an excellent choice!

Nikon vs. Canon = Ford vs. Chevy. There is no "best." Both companies produce great products.