Disclaimer: I have no knowlege of Canon's plans or insight into their thinking.

It appears to me that Canon would want to please all of the existing XL H1 owners and sell the new lens separately. After all, it is only useful on a Canon XL camera.

However, at best it takes a lot of effort, and time, to reprogram the firmware so that the new lens would work on an XL H1.

In the best of worlds, this would only require a firmware upgrade. But, it may be just as likely that all of the features of the new lens could not be activated on the original XL H1 with just a firmware change. Only Canon knows.

For example, the size of the internal memory on the Canon XL H1 may be just enough for the current firmware and the size of the internal memory on the XL H1s / XL H1a may need to be larger. This presents an interesting case where it would require much more than just a firmware upgrade to update the original XL H1.

Another area is the capability of the new lens to zoom and focus at the same time. Does this require more power to the lens? Has the protocol of the communications between the lens and the camera changed?

I do know that it takes a lot of effort to redo firmware.



It is my understanding that Canon will not be selling the new lens as a separate item. This may be "for now" or may be "forever".

Personally, I love the new features of the XL H1s, but I feel that my existing XL H1 takes amazing images and is just a useful as it was the day before NAB.

Chris, I think that is obvious.

I like more manual control. The old 20X lens is very jumpy when focussing. It is very hard to focus precisely. The ring jumps from 5m to 35m easily, and this seems to be improved in the new lens (four settings for focus speed). This and the new focus rings on the lens makes me want to buy it. And again, I really don't see why this cannot be done by firmware. The 6X came with new firmware, I suspect due to the new iris ring. The same can and should be done for this new lens. Firmware update that enables the iris ring and also enables control over the different focus speed settings for the new lens.

What do we gain?
- Probably improved lens design
- Better focus/zoom rings
- Different speed settings for focussing
- Iris ring (better than the noisy iris dial)

Trading in my XL-H1 is an option but I guess it is not a viable option. If you get $4,000 for your XL-H1, you need to pay another $5,000 to get the XL-H1S. That's a lot of money and the lens improvements are what I like most. The other things are very nice but I can live with them.

Dear Marty,

It is my understanding that the optical elements (glass) of the new XL H1s lens are the same as the original XL H1 lens.

Canon is just not up to their game completely. They should sell the camera's as a body only (why not, modularity hey). There also should have been a manual HD lens already. That's how a modular system could and should be. But Canon thinks differently. Why can't you choose between the kit lens and the 6X wide lens? Why is there still no manual HD lens why everyone has been asking for it since the XL-H1 was released. Those are the questions I have right now. I understand that it takes a long time to develop new glass but two years is a long time and they had plenty of time to rework this lens. There's one good thing about this though: the fact that Canon took the effort to redesign and update the 20X lens makes me believe that they will stick with 1/3" lenses for a while.

I really doubt that the lens mount changed. If you look at their photography business, they have the EF mount and the EF-S mount. But they add new lenses with new features all the time but you can use them on all bodies. That's why I think a firmware upgrade can make this lens 100% compatible with the old XL-H1. You raise a good question about memory but I highly doubt that a focus speed setting will have influence on the memory. I might be wrong though. Anyway, as a loyal XL-H1 customer that has paid $9,000 + accessories into the XL system I think I have the right for an explanation from Canon why I cannot buy/use(to its fullest) this new lens.

Of course there is no such stipulation. The 6x HD lens was released after the XL H1. Who is to say there won't be another lens (hopefully a manual one) coming sometime later on after the H1S and H1A.

Sorry but no the newer speeds will not be available in with the older H1 body.

I'm having a hard time understanding why that isn't a viable option, and I disagree with your estimate of the value of a used H1. I think it's closer to $5,000 or $6,000. You guys said you were willing to buy the new lens separately. Most likely it would have cost as much as the previous 20x lens, which had a value of $2,000. So now you're at an amount that's actually higher than the cost of the H1A (body with lens), and within $1,000 or $2,000 of the H1S. If you're willing to spend $2,000 on the lens just to get an iris ring and better spacing and feel on the zoom and focus, then why wouldn't the rest of the body improvements (full-spec SDI, audio, etc.) also be worth that amount or maybe even half that amount?

How long does it take to make this stuff pay for itself anyway?

The lens mount has not changed, however, there is no way for any of us to know *exactly* what can or can't be done through firmware on the older H1, and a large number of the new camera changes are physical in nature anyway, which makes a firmware upgrade a moot point (in other words, why bother with it when replacing the camera body makes more sense, as explained above -- why not reap *all* of the improvements). I'm not saying a firmware upgrade won't happen, because I don't know that. I'm just saying it's not very likely.

Naturally I'd be concerned that Canon would design newer lenses to take advantage of the H1S/A design only and maybe be crippled on the H1 too, if really even compatible at all. Just a concern.

Prior to the announcement of the H1A it might have been worth $5k but I have serious concerns regarding getting that out of it now. Heck, I wouldn't pay $5k when I could get the newer model for $1000 more, minus the SDI stuff which I don't generally need anyway,

Regardless, let's just agree to disagree. I still think I'd like more lens options down the road for "all" H1 series cameras. And if Canon introduces a higher res LCD for only the newer models.....ay caramba!

Peace.

By the way, I make a fulltime wage producing motion graphics for my employer so my videography business is part-time and it takes me a while to pay for my cameras. It doesn't pay for itself in 6 months so honestly, just selling my current camera and coming up with the difference isn't quite as easy as you make it sound. Could I get away with a cheaper camera? An A1 perhaps and be more profitable? Probably. Ergonomically I just love the H1 over the smaller cams and when the camera feels good in your hands you make better movies.

Still some of us do just enough business to justify buying the equipment so that we can support our independent film aspirations.....which will not obviously be profitable unless you really hit it big!

If this is true then any interest I had has seriously diminished anyway. The 6x glass seems far superior to the original 20x so I was thinking it might be like that.

I wish Canon would sell the XL-H1a (or XL-H1s) body without a stock lens. I like the upgrades this new lens got, especially the aperture on the lens body, but I still find it a bit lacking with the aperture when zoomed in (f/1.6 beats f/3.5 anytime for good DoF without a LetusXL). Since it doesn't do constant f/1.6 throughout its zoom range, i'd rather still shoot full manual with my Canon 14x. I heard it holds pretty well on an XL-H1, so that's why a body-only upgrade would be nice from Canon (I think they sold the XL2 like that for a while).

It would be quite a feat for a 20x lens to get a constant aperture though, but since it's the same optic formulas I guess we won't see that until another lens. Maybe. Ah, I can dream, can I?

Would cost a hell of a lot more than 2,000 bucks though I'm pretty sure :-)

Gabe
Fotonik Films

Hey Gabriel,

You should check www.zgc.com

They have sold (and still do) the XL-H1 both as a body only and with the 6x Wide.

I'm sure they will do something similar for the new cameras once they come out.

Quite true. A 20x that could hold f/1.6 throughout the zoom range would be a pretty nifty bit of optical design, and would cost a lot more. The fact that the Canon 16x and 14x manual lenses can hold their maximum apertures is one of their most under-appreciated features, IMO. Both lenses are really great bargains for what you get out of them--especially the 14x, which can go for as little as $500 or $600 if you can find one (I'm pretty excited to have one on the way to me right now--thanks, Lorinda). Now if Canon would only design a similar lens especially for HD... :)

This is a very good point, and should answer at least some of the concerns that have been discussed above.

The 16x is f/2.6 at full telephoto.

I was talking about the 16x manual lens, not the IS II auto lens that originally shipped with the XL1s. You'll see even at that same link that the 16x manual is f/1.6 throughout the zoom range.

You're right. Thanks for the correction.

Man, thanks for the link Michael! I went to ZGC's online store a couple of times over the last month, why didn't I see that before?

I'll be sure to check 'em out for the XL-H1a or XL-H1s body once they're out this summer. If Canon won't do it, I hope they will! :-)

I think we can safely assume that the Canon's next lens will be a manual HD lens. Canon has seen that Sony's manual lens on the EX1 (sort of manual) had received a very warm welcome. The new 20X lens also indicates that Canon is aware of that, and it is also what the Canon rep said in the FreshDV interview. People want more manual control. I also think the new redesigned 20x lens indicates that Canon will stick with 1/3" for a little bit longer. Either that or a XL-H1 with 1/2" chips and a EX1 type lens. Time will tell.

Dear Floris,

At NAB, I had a XL H1s in our Convergent-Design area of the Canon Booth.

I was very impressed with the new lens. I realize that it is not a full manual lens, but it does feel like one. It responds like one. And the way it responds is adjustable.

I showed it to hundreds of professionals who came by the booth and the consensus was that it was very impressive. I encouraged our guests to operate it to get a feel of the new lens.

As you are aware, you can zoom, focus, and change the iris simulaneously (if you have enough fingers). This lens is a significant improvement over the original lens.

A full manual lens will (of course) not have auto-focus, nor image stabilization. In exchange, the full manual lens will have fewer elements and be less complex.

There are times when a full manual lens is nice. We are currently shooting a movie using a JVC camera with a full manual lens. We spend a significant amount of time trying to ensure that the scene is in focus. Even then, our camera operator does not always get it "Tack Sharp".

Compare this to the XL H1s lens or to the XL H1 lens. You can achieve great focus at the touch of a button.

In other scenes we operated the JVC camera handheld. Having image stabilization as one of your options is certain nice.

Please do not get me wrong. A full manual lens has its advantages at times. And there are many professionals who insist on a full manual lens.

What I have seen, in HD, is that there is a lot of footage shot which is not as sharp as it should be.

If you have the opportunity, get your hands on the new XL H1s and put the new lens through its paces.

Finally some actual input on the new lens and it's feel. It sounds promising. If we could get an idea of what features won't work on the H1 that would be great. If it feels better then it "is" better. But if you put the lens on an H1 would it feel just like the original 20x lens negating all benefits of the having the newer one?

Dear Marty,

It you put the new lens on the original XL H1, it will still feel the same as it does on the XL H1s.

The feel is built in, it is not electronic. In other words, it feels the same if the camera is on or off.

But do we get the different focus speed settings on the old XL-H1?

Dear Floris,

I have not tested the new lens on an original XL H1.

However, I do feel that the Focus Speed is set by the firmware in the camera. The lens just carries out the foucs commands at the speed set by the firmware in the camera.

The newer, slower focus preset speeds, the three different zoom speed ranges, and similar features are not available on the older XL H1 body.

They will. We'll have to give them a year or so to make that happen.

I think Canon is just now starting to "get it". I think everyone needs to realize is that Canon is primarily a still photography company. And they really know how to build auto-focus/image stabilized lenses. It's their bread and butter. It's what still photographers want. Super quick, super fast snap focusing auto lenses.

It shouldn't surprise everyone when Canon applies that philosophy to their video lenses. It was only until just recently (this year's NAB) that Canon finally had their "ah ha" moment that filmmakers and EFP videographers want MANUAL, MANUAL, MANUAL. That realization made its way into the H1 refresh by making sure the "M" on the camera's setting dial is first and not 5th. LOL! How many folks have cursed Canon by trying to turn that dial on a darkened set and were thinking "did I turn that dial four times or six times?"

Canon's primary market is rich doctors, dentists and small TV broadcasters in the mid-west. The filmmaking segment is small in comparison. BUT...we're the most vocal and we drive the technology the furthest. Canon, I think, is finally starting to get it.

I know personally that the brass in Irvine has been screaming for a more filmmaker friendly camera to the higher-ups in Japan for years. They weren't listening initially. They are now.

The future is exciting for Canon. Next year I wait to see what they offer. It will be interesting.

Robert, what you say is true.

But Canon is also one of the best manufacturers of 2/3" lenses of incredible high quality. All those lenses are manual without autofocus. So although Canon maybe a photography company, I still think they also know what videographers/filmmakers demand from a lens.

But everything shows us that Canon is indeed listening. So I hope to see a manual HD lens with the XL-H2 (which I hope will be progressive, ntsc/pal switchable, over- and undercranking and tapeless or tape or both). This way they can keep on building the XL system. Going to 1/2" is also an option but will probably render our current XL lenses obsolete. I hope they can achieve some of the benefits of 1/2" chips in another way.

You bring up a fair point about the 2/3" lenses. I don't know exactly how Canon has structured its internal infrastructure, but it's possible they are divided between a pro-video lens department and a consumer electronics department. I'd like to think the H1 is considered "pro". But somehow I suspect it falls into the CE market. LOL! Kind of like how the Rebel XL team is a completely different than the 5D team (similar products but with drastically different demographics).

I think going to 1/2" would not be too big of a problem for Canon. They can keep the same mount and still call it an XL camera. But they'll just do what they're doing now - which is telling customers the new refreshed lenses are incompatible with older bodies and older lenses are incompatible with the newer bodies. If they're willing to ignore legacy items on a simple refresh then I have no doubt they'll use the same tactic when introducing a new set of 1/2" lenses that would only be compatible with the future H2.

Side note: Isn't Canon already producing a set of 1/2" lenses that work with the JVC?

You are right about the division. The Canon XL-H1 is from the CE division while the broadcast lenses are from the broadcast division. But still, they are the same company and could share their knowledge.

I guess you are right about the lens mount. It will be like the EF and EF-S on their photography cameras. You can use the old lenses but at the wide end, you will see vignetting on the new camera. The new lenses will work on the old camera but will be less wide due to the different image size.

I guess they can make it work like this.

Like I mentioned in another thread, a cool thing Canon could do about it's XL line of lenses would be to implement a crop system in its future XL bodies should they get 1/2" CCDs or CMOS. Could be pretty much like what Nikon did with its D3 body : you can use your "old" DX lenses on it, but you don't get the full megapixels res (don't really know the numbers, must be somewhere around 2/3 the res), or you use new FX format lenses (or older full-frame film lenses) and get full res.

On future XL bodies, a similar approach could alway be used : The choice would be either get 720p maximum res for older XL lenses without any heavy vignetting or use newer XL lenses at full 1080p res (or even use older XL lenses at full res, but vignetting would probably be horrible). They could even implement somewhere into the body a vignetting correction software to reduce or hide completely the effect of older XL lenses according to the lens you use. You could select it from a list in a menu, there ain't that many XL lenses on the market.

That might not be possible, but it sure would be pretty nifty instead of doing all vignetting correction in post, and would lengthen the life of our older XL lenses! Plus, it would be pretty useful when filming live events!

Canon Broadcast & Communications is part of Canon's Industrial Products Group, which is an entirely separate division from Canon Video, which belongs to Canon's Consumer Imaging Group. They are completely different companies (which means first and foremost that they are composed of completely different people, and they operate completely independently from each other). Within the Video division, there is the consumer side and the pro side -- the pro side product line being the GL, XL and XH camcorders, and the Console software. This delineation between consumer and pro video products happened fairly recently. But it's important to realize that Broadcast and Video have always been two completely separate companies.

If they go to 1/2", they won't call it XL. Keep in mind that all older XL lenses are indeed forward compatible with newer bodies -- it's always been that way and this hasn't changed with the new H1S and H1A. They work with *all* older XL lenses (of course the older XL lenses that are non-HD will resolve only for standard definition).

1/3rd-inch. Canon Broadcast is doing that. The 20x lens they're making for JVC ProHD lists for about $9,800. The JVC part number is KT20x5BKRS.

Thanks for the explanation Chris. You are the ultimate Canon guru!

Thanks for your insight Chris. Perhaps we're seeing the last XL camera with this refresh. I think that with Sony's move toward 1/2" CMOS cameras that Canon will have no choice but to respond with something similar. Of course, if they were going to make a move to an entirely new imaging format, I'd love to see them go for it and introduce a sub-$10k 2/3" camera.

Canon seems to have a good relationship with Sony. As I understand it the CCD's in the H1/A1/G1 are sourced from Sony. And since Sony has introduced a newer generation of 2/3" CCDs for the F23 and F900R, maybe Canon could get the older generation F900/3 chips at a reduced price (assuming Sony's foundry can still produce and haven't been completely retooled).

Otherwise, I'd love to see Canon set it's sights on the EX3 next year and blow it out of the water with something jaw dropping. If CMOS is the future, maybe a true 2K over-sampled sensor in the 2/3" size. I'm sure there's an ambitious engineer over there who can figure out how to take advantage of their 30D and 5D sensors and make them work in a video application. If they employed a 3-chip design then we could use those gorgeous 2/3" lenses (not to mention similar DOF characteristics of 35mm without adapters).

They could call it the new Ultra-Hi-Def Canon. 2K, Tapeless, 2/3" CMOS, $10,999.

I am not sure wether I prefer CMOS over CCD. But as Canon's complete photography business uses CMOS sensors (the DSRL line) it would make sense to me that they use the same sensors as they have proven themself. Canon is also famous for lowlight capabilities in that market so I think it can be a winner. They do have to fix the rolling shutter though. But I think once processing chips in cameras get faster, it will be minimized.

I highly doubt they will go 2/3". Maybe they offer a similair mount as Sony where you can use both 1/2" and 2/3" lenses on the camera. Or maybe they go 1/3" and have the camera take 2/3" with an adapter. Who knows. But 2/3" glass is very expensive so I am not sure if it is feasible. The Sony EX3 is $13,000 which is a lot of money. You can get 2/3" cameras for that price. The Panasonic HPX-500 is like $9,000 right now. With glass you are looking at almost $20,000. But for that money, I would buy a RED.

Therefore I highly doubt that they will go 2/3". But the industry in state of chaos right now. So many new things are happening, 1/3" used to be the standard in this market segment but Sony upped it to 1/2". RED's Scarlet will have 2/3" sensors so you see where I am going. It will be hard to please everyone. Especially with interchangeable lenses. I still think the only feasible option would be an APS-C sensor with EF-S lenses or an APS sensor with EF lenses. That glass is available, Canon has a large catalog from zooms to primes and that glass is affordable. I don't see how 2/3" will work when the lens costs more than the camera. Unless the prices of those lenses will drop tremendously which I don't expect to happen. Canon sells plenty of those lenses to professional broadcast etcetera so it would eat their own profit. And I once read that because Canon sells 2/3" lenses to all its competitors, they won't appreciate it when they come with their own 2/3" camera body. Not sure how much of that is true. I can understand it though.

The video/film business is very divided. Everyone has its own niche and there is very little overlap.

- Canon makes 2/3" lenses but no camera bodies
- Fujinon makes 2/3" lenses but no camera bodies
- Sony cameras use a V-mount
- Panasonic cameras use a Goldmount
- Canon (it is said) uses Sony chips
- Zeiss makes cineprimes

And the list goes on and on...

RED is the only company that shakes up things and moves at lightning speed. 5k when the rest of the market is still doing 1080p. And all at prices that the competition can only dream off. Exciting times.

I think each company should look at its own strengths. Canon strength is its photography business and its broadcast lens division. The last division goes very well so I don't think they are going to eat those profits and the prices of that lenses are not acceptable for the XL market segment. So the best thing to do would be to use a DSLR sensor optimized (or developed) for this camera that utilizes their photography lenses. Or maybe slightly modified photography lenses with aperture rings, hard stops and aimed for video (option for lanc controllers that work with IRIS).

So for me... the road for Canon to follow would be APS-(C), modified EF-S lenses optimized for filmmaking (better manual control, hard stops, focus markings) that are slightly more expensive then their photo counterparts. Combined with a optimized Digic processor for video. I think this would make a great camera that will be very hard to beat by the competition. I think at the end I would use CMOS because Canon has its own plant for those and they wouldn't have to rely on Sony for the CCD chips.

But we can only wait and see what Canon comes up with. Maybe what I describe won't be ready next year. But I think it should be the longterm goal that Canon should aim for. In the mean time they can stick with 1/3". XL-H2 with better high-res viewfinder (like on the new Nikon's or Sony EX 1), better ergonomics in terms of balance on the shoulder (maybe AB mount standard) and truly progressive chips that do 120fps. This camera would do 1080p and 720p and I would not mind if it was long-gop MPEG. It would launch with a 16x Manual HD lens F/1.4. I would be happy.

I just stumbled across this in another forum here on DVinfo:

Edirol F1 HDD field recorder
http://www.edirol.com/index.php?opti...341&Itemid=390

Picture mounted on XL-H1:
http://www.edirol.com/images/stories.../f1_camera.jpg

Looks like a great addition and far more decent in build quality than the Firestore. It also gives better audio options. The only thing I dislike is that it records HDV in the .m2t format. I would like a quicktime alternative.

Floris van Eck is right.
 

A couple of things, 2/3 chip full HD cameras with broadcast glass have been there for a long time, that's the broadcast market and you pay for it. I've never known the manufacturers to put full broadcast facilities into prosumer cameras, they would be undermining their vital broadcast market. Personally I think they're already very close to the line with this.

I can't afford to take the chance with CMOS and a rolling shutter - the results are there to see. I don't want a tapeless format - of course chips look lovely, but my customers (who are often on a trans-Atlantic flight right after the shoot), don't like the idea - what about archiving? Who owns the chip?

Red keeps cropping up, but it is in a league apart. Red is a tempter for those who have the means to support it with everything it needs post prod wise. And does it need bottomless pockets or what?!

Watch.Impress review:
 

Original Japanese:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...7/zooma360.htm

English Translated:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...2fzooma360.htm

From what I understand (it is hard to read babelfish translated articles), they say it is a nice camera with some nice updates. However, they also say that Sony upped the game with the Sony PMW-EX3 and that the XL-H1S is the camera "before the real pleasure" comes... the XL-H2 or something like that. That's exactly how I feel about it. But nice, insightful article.

I think it's safe to say that Sony upped the game by going with 1/2" chips. The consumer camera's can stick with 1/4 and 1/3 chips. But for "prosumer" gear the game is now 1/2" chips.

It's not about legacy or about "what makes sense" based on anecdotal historical trends. It's about staying competitive in a marketplace where PR and technical buzz words sell product. And the new buzz words will be/already is 1/2". You might want to throw 10-bit and tapeless in there too. (Note: You could almost hear the giggling from the FreshDV crowd as the Canon rep did his best to "sell" HDV, tape and interlaced to that tough crowd.)

I don't think Canon has much of a choice but to move on from 1/3" CCDs. They already pushed the technical buzz word limit by using "interlaced" CCDs rather than "progressive" CCDs. The H2 will HAVE to be a progressive camera.

The first question is what type of sensor will Canon go with? What size? What resolution?

The second question is what type of codec will Canon go with? What bit rate? What color depth?

The third question is what type of recording medium will Canon choose? Solid state or tape? Physical media?

If the answers to those three questions require a new generation of glass (and the mostly likely will) and form factor, then I would bet that Canon will introduce the successor to the XL with something else.

This very well may be the last of the XL cameras.

XL H1a
 

Anyone know when this will be coming out in the UK?

As far as I know, it should be shipping in late June worldwide.

is it using the same digic ii chip as hv30?

Digic DV II HD