Absolutely agreed.

But most people prefer one over the other. I prefer Nikon ultimately. I like their color rendition over Canon's. But that might have more to do with their image processing and chips than with their glass.

I just wanted to let everyone know that, at NAB, for the first time, Canon brought the entire design/engineering team to Vegas. I was very lucky to get to spend a couple of hours with them discussing the next camera (XL). I won't get into details of what was discussed but every valid and resonable upgrade that has been mentioned here was put forth. I also made a point that they should be checking here on DVinfo on a regular basis to find out what people want and any problems or concerns that may come up. I don't expect them to get involved in discussions but I think they will be looking and taking notes.
The bottom line is I think they really got what was being discussed, and hopefully, we see major upgrades on a new camera next year.

Jim Martin
Birns & Sawyer Inc
"At the ArcLight"

Thanks, Jim, and I'm jealous of the info you have but can't share yet (although you did tip your hand a little in that XL will live on!).

I'm NOT under any NDA so of course the company guys I'm acquainted with don't tell me anything non-public. Nevertheless, the course of even casual conversation tells me that the corporate culture alluded to in this old pre-XL H1 post is alive and well.

Absolutely without question, all the camera companies DO read every word about their products on DVINFO. Most choose not to publically engage in discussion/debate but They Are Listening.

Can't wait to see what 18-24 months bring us!

Thanks Jim. Very appreciated.

I also believe that all camera manufacturers read these forums. We know that RED, Panasonic and JVC participate actively and that Sony and Canon don't do that. But that's fine, that's their corporate culture.

I really hope Canon will be back at the top with the XL-H1 successor. I don't care what they will do as long as they deliver. The EX1 and Scarlet really show Canon that they need to step up and claim their place back.

In the Fresh DV interview, the Canon representative said that Canon will stick with HDV for the next three years as they see it as the most comfortable and easy format to work with which is widely accepted. They may be right but I would like to see some options (CF slot next to tape mechanism). Maybe three years is what it takes them to put a 35mm sensor in the camera. If that's the case, I am more happy to wait.

Overall I must say I am very satisfied with the Canon XL-H1. The big shortcomings for me are the LCD/Viewfinder and the absence of a manual HD lens for the camera. I can live with most other things. Ergonomics could be better (weight distribution) but I think I am going to solve that by adding an IDX mounting plate on the back with 2 E10 batteries. They can be stacked so I will add like 1 kilogram to the back of the camera. Will help I guess. Another purchase I am going to do is a proper field monitor (evaluating new Nebtek, Panasonic BT-LH80W and the LSDSGN Carrion B/C). With these upgrade, I think I can enjoy my XL-H1 for another one to two years until Canon drops a bomb on us in the form of a 35mm sensor and EF mount).

What I would like to know:

Will there be a firmware upgrade for the XL-H1? Can you use the new lens on the original XL-H1? I guess one does not work without the other.

Speaking on behalf of current A1/G1 owners who participated in the firmware update wishlist on this site, let's hope that they are ALSO considering providing at the very least, those updates that are certainly possible through a firmware update for us A1/G1 owners.

I'm no technician by any means, but there has got to be at least a few that were voted on that could be implemented (ex: OIS on/off mappable to Custom Key... display active Custom Preset name, etc.)

I may be dreaming.....

I just supposed we we talking about and XL. Please don't assume anything...And I only know what I passed on to them, not what they will actually do.

Thanks, Jim

There have been and most likely will continue to be firmware upgrades for the XL H1, but keep in mind that the vast majority of improvements made to the XL H1S and H1A are not possible for the H1 simply by updating firmware. Most everything going on in the new cameras involves a complete re-working of internal circuitry (such as the audio block, for example).

The best course of action, and indeed the most logical expectation, for any H1 owner interested in the improvements made to the H1S / H1A is to sell the H1 and buy one of the new ones. That is the easiest and most direct upgrade path.


The new Series III lens is mostly compatible with the original H1. There's only a partial loss of certain functions.

I was privileged enough to be able to work with a brand new XL H1s for three days at NAB.

I was working at the Convergent-Design booth, within the Canon Booth. We were very busy, but I did get to work with the new lens and the new camera.

I am very impressed with the improvements. The lens feels much better, the iris ring is very nice, and you can focus and zoom at the same time.

I like the ability to control how the lens operates via the menu settings, where you can control how much rotation it takes to perform a function, such as zoom.

I also feel that the audio improvements are substantial. I like the idea of having limiters as well as the other improvements, such being able to setup each channel separately in all respects, including the source input.

I understand that many features are not possible on the original XL-H1. But things like different focus speeds (i find the focus speed on my camera to fast, it jumps from 1m to 50m far too quick) should be possible. I also do not see why we would not be able to control the different channels directly.

I think Canon added some nice new features but they are not worth like $4,000 for me (I guess I get a maximum of $5,000 for my XL-H1). That's why I prefer to wait until they announce the next big thing next year.

I don't mean to be a complainer but isn't the whole idea around the XL series that it is modular? Why then, does Canon insist on making improvements to the lens yet they do not sell it as a standalone for those of us with the original XL-H1 to benefit? If they are trying to force our hand and get us to buy the H1s/A then why bother pretending that they want all lenses to be compatible across the series? Just make them a fixed lens if that is what they are going to do to protect their "new" model. Sure maybe one day you can pick it up used but how likely is that in the near future?

We have been asking for a manual lens with HD glass for 2.5 years now and while this new lens isn't exactly that, it may offer some distinct advantages that could be utilized on the H1. Yet, they do not plan on selling it seperate....or conveniently not for a long time. Bummer.

There are no other features of the H1S/A that I can justify shelling out a ton of cash for over my current XLh1, other than the lens...maybe. If it was available as a standalone it might be a good option. As it stands it is a bit of a tease.

Because it's *partially* compatible with the original XL H1. Therefore they're not going to sell you something that won't fully work with your camera.

They are indeed compatible, to a degree. The camera bodies are always backward compatible with all older lenses (just be mindful of SD vs. HD). The camera bodies sometimes are not fully forward compatible with newer lenses. That's no different now than it has been in the past.

There's no reason to buy a second camera unless you really need it. However, the proper way to upgrade is to sell the older camera and put that money toward the newer one. That way you're not "shelling out a ton of cash" over your current camera. Besides, your current camera should have paid for itself by now. Any amount of money you get by selling it is pure profit, even if it's only half of what you bought it for. It's that much money off of a new one.

The new camera cost minus whatever amount you get for your old camera is what you're really shelling out. And since it's a business tool, it should pay for itself within three to six months anyway.

of course the idea is to sell your old camera and buy the new one... however even then it doesn't seem worth it. If indeed your camera has paid for itself then why cut into new profits by buying a camera that is nearly identical?

Just wish canon would truly take advantage of the modular design and interchangable lenses. The xlh1s/a really don't feel like an upgrade as much as an update. I didn't buy an xl1s over my xl1 back then either.

Oh well. Just would like more options. It seems be the dream of every xl owner that never gets met and makes the whole concept of modular seem useless.

Peace.

Your impression is that it is nearly identical. My impression is that it is not.

I'm not sure how you're clarifying the difference between an upgrade and an update. It is an extensive set of changes relative to the difference between an XL1 and XL1S.

Some XL H1 owners will make the change... some will not. The XL H1 is no longer being sold though (except for existing dealer inventory). There will be a number of folks moving up from the XL2 or older cameras plus others who are new to the XL line. These are the people whom I'm inviting to ask questions about the new H1S and H1A.

Dear Marty,

I feel that the improvements in the XL H1s are substantial, especially in the lens.

But, I do not feel that these improvements have completely obsoleted my XL H1, which will still produce great images.

Let me clarify my opinion. (note "opinion" please.)

I feel going from an XL2 to the XLh1 was un upgrade. I moved from one format to another, superior format that will undoubtedly make a huge difference in image quality that I was experiencing.

I feel moving from the H1 to the H1S/A would be more of an update. It will bring some new features and some better usability but for the most part I expect the image produced will be comparable to the H1...unless the lens turns out to be the bomb and make the H1S the next RED!

Anyway....I never upgraded from my XL1 to an XL1s, or from my DVX100 to the DVX100B as the minor updates that brought new features just weren't worth the hassle of selling my exising equipment and buying new. Would I have like the new features? Sure. But they were not enough to make the move. Too little for all the effort involved.

However when I sold my HVX200 to get the XLh1....that in my mind was an upgrade. I felt the image was far superior and justified the trouble of having to sell/rebuy new equipment. Although both were HD, the H1 just looked like "HDNET" HD and the HVX...well not so much. A great camera but felt more like a medium def format.

These are my opinions and I hope that is understood. If I could have an XLh1S over the H1 without losing money or having to go through the hassle of selling my H1, would I? Sure. There are some nice new features. But I don't really feel any of these warrant the trouble....at least for me.

No harm intended. I am actually happy with the positioning of the H1S/A as it re-affirmed my faith in the original H1. If they had put new sensors or packed it with a better EVF or manaul HD lens or gone solid state with better codec....I do not think I could resist it. In fact, I am a sucker for new cameras....I have a problem buying the latest gear I would say and my wife would agree! So for the H1S to not be enticing to me should speak to it's improvements...or at least to it's lack of "major" changes.

It is however a good camera for Canon to hang on the XL line and a worthy successor to the H1. However it is primarily an update to an already great camera.

Peace again. It's all cool.

XL-H1S. Enough said.

S as in Nikon D70S. As in Mark II, Mark III. They did some nice updates. Like Panasonic updated their HVX-200 to the HVX-200A. If you are buying a new camera, that's very nice. But I don't think it is worth the update. And again, I don't see why they could not give us many of the upgrades through a firmware update. But Canon's not like that. I already knew that. They release a camera, do one or two firmware upgrades (mainly for the wideangle lens) and that's all. They are updating their DSLR firmware continuously. I am sure they can make my servo lens focus slower through firmware, they can add the image profile updates through firmware. Of course they can't update the lens through firmware. But I cannot see why it would not work the same on an old XL-H1 model. Of course I understand that the audio limiters are a hardware thing and cannot be added.

The only big thing for me is the XL-H1A. You get the new update for a very attractive price. $6,000 is very nice for what you get, and you don't have to pay for what most of us will never use. That's good. So I guess if I would be updating, it would be to the XL-H1A. But it would still cost me money.

If I would buy a new camera now I would buy the new Sony, or maybe the XL-H1A. But not the XL-H1S. Its overprices for what you get. The same goes for the JVC updates. Too slow. We are now in a world with progressive sensors, over- and undercranking and we are moving towards tapeless. They did have a good response to the Sony EX1 lens though.

Next year we will see the XL-H2 or a true successor. I can wait another year till Canon takes this great camera to the next level. I can live with most shortcomings of the old model. I got used to them.

To conclude. I think the lens is a real upgrade, not an update anymore. And I also think it could work the same on the old model. With a firmware upgrade. I really cannot see why that would not work.

Its good to be Jim Martin ;^)

Its nice to hear that Canon will be at least listening if not participating in the forum. I have a few thoughts as to some of the features I'd like to see in any new camera.

These cameras EX1/3, H1 etc are now being used a lot for Digital Cinematography so....

Option of DCI frame size output (2048x1080P), how hard can this be? They will need a new sensor so just make it 2048 wide and crop in camera when using HD output. Even if it was just available on the HDSDI port.

At least 3x1/2" sensor full raster (see above) 2048x1080P

World standard camera, 24, 25, 30P etc no sending back to Canon for upgrade.

Solid State recording....well obviously!!!

422 Recording, non proprietary media, up to 100Mbit

3Gb HDSDI capability with 422 and 444 output, all at true 10 bit, backwardly compatible with existing 1.5Gb HDSDI.

Actually with the introduction of 3Gb HDSDI standard theres no reason not to allow 444 ouput as an option, the bandwidth is available.

Cost $3000, ha ha just kidding, the new EX3 is approx. under $13K, so theres one benchmark.

I can dream can't I ;^)

Hey, I know it says that the Magnify can be recorded now on the XL-H1S, but will the new camera allow for use of it without recording it to tape?

Perhaps anyone who went to the Birns and Sawyer presentation can confirm?

Hey Marty,

Hope all is well with you.

The EX1 is owned from a colleague of mine ... I just have access to it whenever I need it :)

I haven't decided what to do in terms of "upgrading" but ...

As for the XL H1S, there are several things I'm interested in:

1. Embedded TC and Audio in the HD-SDI (as I need the TC-out for slaving the Edirol R4-Pro, it would be good to have TC embedded in video)

2. Variable peaking frequency ... could help quite a bit for focusing ...

3. AGC Limiter ... interested in this for some of the event work I do from time to time

4. perfect syncing with my colleagues XH-A1 (he's been a second cam for some recent shoots)

5. The new lens controls and iris ring

6. Being able to record one channel the on-board shotgun mic (when I'm not recording double system sound)

Again, just thinking about the upgrade ... nothing definite at this point.

Did you recently purchase the FU-1000?

Yes. Picked it up a few weeks ago from the classified section of this site. As I stated above, the jury is still out on it as I have only been able to use it in synthetic environments....not real shoots where the typical focusing problems rear their ugly heads.

By the way, the list of features you mentioned are decent but I can't see them being worth the extra money needed after selling an existing H1. At least not for me. Of course I have almost never had a need for the SDI out anyway.

To a person looking to buy who doesn't own one yet it really adds a ton of new selling points. The lens is probably the biggest one for me. It's a shame Canon insists on not making many of the new options available to the current H1 owners too.

I can confirm for you, it's a choice in the Custom Function menu whether or not to record the focus assist magnification.

You still don't seem to understand that most of those new features involve physical design changes and different internal components and therefore are not possible on the first H1 with a simple firmware upgrade. I've said it before, but those options *are* available to the current H1 owners -- the process is to sell your old camera and buy a new one. That's much less expensive, and far more reasonable, than the expectation that an older camera should be physically retro-fitted to become a new one. That just isn't practical, or even possible, with the kinds of differences there are between the XL H1 and the new H1S and H1A.

And I keep thinking that many of them can be made available.

The new lens could and should work on the old XL-H1. I guess they did not change the lens mount and the rest is the lens talking to the body. Focussing speeds and those kind of things are firmware. Otherwise the 6X WIDE shouldn't work on the older XL-H1 either. It worked, after a firmware upgrade. So I don't see why this new lens would change that game.

Variable peaking... should be possible.

Embedded audio in HD-SDI... not possible of course.

Audio limiters... not possible.

Mixing on-board mic with XLR... most likely not possible.

So yes, I still think Canon COULD and SHOULD update our firmware. They do it for their professional DSLR photo camera's as well. Attitudes likes this is what makes RED so special. And if companies like Canon keep acting like this they will lose all their customers to companies that do listen.

I am happy with the updates of the XL-H1 though. The new models address many complaints (although not all) and show that Canon does listen.

You just listed three features out of four that are not upgradeable via firmware. Plus, the number and type of changes that have been made to the new cameras is indeed proof that the manufacturer is listening to their customers.

A firmware upgrade to the H1 won't begin to measure up to the numerous changes of the H1S and H1A. Once again, the most logical upgrade path is to simply sell off and move up. Remember these are business tools which pay for themselves (or at least, that's how they are intended to be used). Not all H1 owners will feel a need to change up, but for those that want to, the upgrade path is obvious.

I am not even talking about firmware here. I'd simply like to see canon actually release good usable components on a regular basis that make the modular design of the xl series more useful. The h1is just about 2.5 years old, they have released 1 additional lens and that is it? The new lens is not for sale, even with limited functionality for us h1 owners unless we buy a new camera, which makes us feel like we should just buy a fixed lens camera to start with. The idea of having a good camera head is we have lens options but that so very limited here it borders frustration.

So I don't expect huge firmware additions but would hope canon could at least make new lenses backward compatible... Even with reduced features ...
at least within the same generation of cameras which the H1 and H1s are.

Thanks

I agree with Marty.

Still no manual HD lens. They could have upgraded the viewfinder easily and it was the major complaint of everyone. Canon made the XL-H1 modular but so far you get very, very limited benefits for buying into this system. The main reason why I still like my XL-H1 so much is ergonomics. I like shoulder mounted cameras and I like having all buttons on the outside. The XL-H1 especially delivers in access to all functions on the outside of the camera. But I wished Canon put more effort in the whole modularity aspect.

I hope they read this and think about what is being said here.

A question about the new cameras going the other way:

We have the 6X lense for the original H1 - I assume that this 6X will work fully in conjunction with the new H1s ?

Yes, of course -- the 6x Wide Angle is fully compatible with the H1S and H1A.

I thought we already went over this. The new lens *is* backward compatible, with reduced features. Anybody who buys an H1S or H1A will be able to use the new lens on an older H1, with some features disabled.

6-pin FW
 

Just thinking about the 6-pin FW ports. A big improvement on the 4-pin in terms of mechanical robustness, but far from indestructible. I haven't seen either of these new cameras yet (and I am confident that Canon will maintain their build quality) BUT I have seen three 6-pin FW ports fail on other gear due to the centre plastic insulator of the port breaking off in tight fitting cables, leaving the port functional but highly at risk of frying the FW bus.

When it happened to me (on an eMac) I just carefully refitted the cable with the plastic insulator still stuck in the plug and left the cable permanently attached. (It still works).

Don't know how many other cameras out there already have 6-pin ports and if anyone else has come across this issue?

In my opinion your concerns are certainly valid, but I believe the general consensus is that the 6-pin connector is much more durable and robust than the 4-pin connector. There are several other camcorders that have 6-pin connectors including JVC's GY-HD200 and HD250, and the Sony DSR250, to name just a couple.

One item worth noting is that the 6-pin connector on the H1S and H1A is unpowered.

Give me a 6-pin any day. I feel have to keep checking the FW cable on my A1 when using a Firestore, even though I route the cable through the mic holder.

Good to hear there's no bus power from the camera end on the new Canons - that should help cut down on electrical problems. I would still use a cable with the bus pins unconnected at both ends just to be sure.

Fully concur on Canon's good move to a 6-pin.

We already had to have our H1 hand-delivered to the Irvine,CA Service Center to have the little 4-pin board/port replaced. (Defective Firestore supplied cable - grrrr!) We were in mid-project. The marvelous Canon Service Center did an OVERNIGHT fix!

I didn't state this clearly originally. I wish Canon would at least make the new lens available as a standalone with the proper statement of features that do not work on the original H1. This at least gives those of us that bought into the XL system the option. The way it is now, Canon is forcing us to by a whole new camera body to have access to a newer lens, that should be compatible, even with limited functionality.

Starting to go in circles now. We've covered this ground before. They're not about to sell you the lens separately because there's no single advantage that makes it worth buying for an older H1. The new lens will work with the older body, but there's no real advantage to having it, since many of its improved features require the newer body. You're not gaining much of anything if you use it with an older body. It will fit on an older H1, but there's no big reason to buy it for the older H1.

You're much better off spending the same money that this lens would have cost, combining it with the money you make from selling your H1, and buying the new body with new lens. That way you'll have the best of both worlds -- all of the lens features that would not have worked on the older H1, plus all of the new features in the H1S or H1A camera body. It's the same money, but better spent.

Remember, the cost of the new camera is only the difference between its price and the money you get for selling your old camera, which should be no more than a couple thousand dollars, which is about what the new lens would have cost anyway. Hope that's clear enough.

Chris, I have to agree with Marty on this one. Speaking as an XL-2 user and longstanding Canon "partisan" who might finally make his transition to HD with the H1A unless seduced by some other camera before he's ready to buy, this decision not to sell the new lens separately doesn't make much sense. Granted: yes I would get the lens in question if I bought an H1A, but the idea of not separately offering different parts of a modular system still kind of rubs me the wrong way in principle, and kind of casts doubt on Canon's intentions with regard to supporting their existing customer base. Marty's suggestion that things like this sort of devalue the idea of modularity makes a lot of sense to me. I suppose existing H1 owners will soon be able to find the new lens on a "pre-owned" basis, but the idea of not being able to buy it new without also buying a new camera head is pretty dumbfounding. I suppose the same situation applied to the updated 16x servo lens that shipped with the XL1s back in the day, but that doesn't mean that it makes any sense. :)

I also sympathize with Marty's frustration with Canon's relative lack of development with regard to new HD-sharp XL lenses. As fast as camera technology is evolving today, it seems pretty reasonable to hope that optical R&D would progress at a similar pace. The market life-cycle of cameras today tends to be quite a bit shorter than in 1999, and if a set of flexible lens options isn't achieved within that life cycle, there's really not that much point in buying into a modular camera system. It's sad, because the ability to swap lenses as shooting situations require has always been one of Canon's biggest selling points.

I admit that you make a pretty compelling point here, though. :) There are always differing points of view, and there's often plenty of validity on all sides.

Jarrod, please answer a question for me: knowing that many of its features depend on communicating with the newer body, what particular aspect of the new lens makes it desirable for an owner of the older H1? In specific terms, what exactly are you gaining by using the new lens on the older body that makes it worth purchasing separately?

I'm sorry, maybe you started writing this post before I edited my last one to include the bit about my seeing your point. You do make a very good point. It's just the idea that the components of a modular system are not being made separately available that kind of seems a little weird to me on principle. The new lens may not provide any new functionality for existing H1 owners, but the whole thing kind of gives the appearance that Canon isn't fully catering to existing users. This discussion is good, because I think these kinds of things need to be hashed out in order to answer people's initial concerns, if nothing else.

The issue with the slow pace of new lens development is something else entirely. :)

Chris,
I have never seen it stated clearly anywhere (doesn't mean it isn't out there) what features will or will not work on the new Lens when coupled with the original H1. I do recall somewhere somebody stating that the glass was much better....but that would have to be proven.

If the lens is severely crippled on the H1 (versus a few features missing) then it would not be worth it obviously.

Still, it is a sore spot that we are forced to buy a new camera to access a better lens. What is the point of buying an XL system camera if not to keep your options open for newer, better lenses? I don't recall the stipulation that after they introduce the "newer" XL model they won't release lenses that are compatible as standalones.

Really, why not buy a fixed lens camera if the best upgrade path in 2.5 years is to sell the camera and pay the difference for the new one? That's not an upgrade....that buying a new camera! Which I do too often already. The camera I own now is great....I would just like a few more lens options....which obviously is not what Canon intends with the series at this point.

Peace.