OK, Canon is part of the HDV Consortium, so I doubt they wouldn't be able to use the technology. That just sounds a bit whack to me.

Aaron

I think I'll just e-mail the guy back and ask him about the consortium. I'm just not sure why he would try and tell me that.

OK I e-mailed Canon and I got a response back already. I ask about why Canon couldn't use HDV if they were part of the HDV consortium,the answer:

'Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and
appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

"HDV" is a trademark of Sony Corporation and Victor Company of Japan,
Limited (JVC).

Canon has not announced any decisions to join or support the HDV format.'

Very interesting Bob!
That's definitely enough to start some serious rumours and speculation.

That's what I thought. I'm sure they want to do hi-def but they must think HDV is not the way to go.

Just as another confirmation of this, review the HDV Format Supporters List . Canon is NOT on the list.

Nice link Patrick, thanks for that.

This is fascinating, because it was made such a big deal of when the consortium was first announced, and Canon was definitely part of it at the time.

Oddly enough, to corroborate what the Canon rep told Bob, if you look at the 'Trademarks' section of the link Patrick posted, it says this:

HDV and HDV logo are trademarks of Sony Corporation and Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC).

Exactly what was stated in the email that Bob received.

No mention of Canon at all.
Did they decide to quietly back away from supporting HDV?
Weird.

I think I remember Canon on that list and I know alot of people said they were....

Well, they are no where to be seen on the HDV format website.
The only mention I've seen of Canon in connection to the HDV format is when the consortium was first announced back in 2003.

It is weird that if Canon was part of the consortium that there is no mention of them on the official HDV site, other than the initial announcement 2 years ago.

Then again, there is no mention of Sharp either, and they were part of the consortium as well...so maybe it doesn't mean anything at all.

I wonder why the trademarks are only registered to Sony and JVC?
Hmmm... probably doesn't mean anything.

I did a quick search on this website. I thought at one time there was a list here. But I saw plenty of people talking about Canon being part of the consortium. People like Douglas Spotted Eagle where saying it.

Bob,

they are listed on the original press release, along with Sony, JVC and Sharp.
You can see the press release at HDV-info.
But there is no other mention of them on that site.

Then again, like I said, there is no mention of Sharp either, so I don't know that it really means anything.

I just sent an email to the contact address for HDV-info to see if they could shed any light on this. If I hear back from them I'll let you know.

It kind of sounds like Sony and JVC cut everyone else out. If HDV doesn't catch on as a pro camera it might be good for all the little handy cams. I'm sure there is more money selling handycams than pro cameras anyway.

Think of the market on a scaled down HDV home video camera! Someday just plug it into your Playstation4 and burn a copy!

That is interesting. Searching here at DVinfo turns up several references to Canon's participation, inclulding this link the a Japanese Canon press release: http://web.canon.jp/pressrelease/2003/hdv.html. Running it through BabelfishThere's also a JVC press release: http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2003/hdv.html

Well, this all sort of relates to the reasons why framed sites should be outlawed, and as the owner of a formerly framed site, I can say that with all the conviction that the converted can muster. You guys are talking about the official HDV Format site at http://www.hdv-info.org -- which is framed, making it hard to point to direct links. But here ya go, and follow closely...

This page: http://www.hdv-info.org/support.htm is just a list of additional companies who have committed to supporting HDV. Canon isn't on it but neither are the other three core members of the consortium (Sharp, JVC and Sony). The listing on this page for Sony Pictures Digital Networks refers to another division of Sony which is separate from the division doing R&D on the format. So in other words, on that Supporters page you will find none of the core members of the HDV consortium.

Those founding core members of the HDV consortium are instead listed on another page at that same site... see http://www.hdv-info.org/page2.htm and you'll find Canon listed right at the top, where it's always been since the beginning. Hope this helps,

So if they are listed there why are they not allowed to use HDV? Only Sony and JVC? Are you saying they supported the idea at the start...but not now.

Those founding core members of the HDV consortium are instead listed on another page at that same site... see http://www.hdv-info.org/page2.htm and you'll find Canon listed right at the top, where it's always been since the beginning. Hope this helps,

I saw that Chris, but what I thought was odd was that the site states HDV and the HDV logo as being trademarked by Sony and JVC.

It just seemed weird that there is no mention of Sharp or Canon other than in the original consortium press release from 2003.

That might mean that Canon may actually go for the DVCProHD format. This sounds more interesting all the time...

That might mean that Canon may actually go for the DVCProHD format. This sounds more interesting all the time...

Well, more realistically it probably doesn't mean anything more than Canon didn't actually have a hand in creating HDV, they simply were on the consortium of companies saying they would support HDV in their productline.

It's possible, I'm guessing here, that Sony and JVC did the actual leg work in creating the codec and supporting hardware, and therefore they share the legal copyright. I suppose if and when Canon releases an HDV camera they would have to license the technology like anyone else.

The idea of them releasing a DVCProHD camera seem highly unlikely, as I doubt panasonic would release it to them. Then again, what do i know?

Luis,

On this topic, I'd say you know about as much as anyone of us here, not much. But your speculation is well reasoned and makes as much sense as any other guesses listed. Isn't Area 51 fun!

OK, so if your logic is correct and DVCProHD isn't Canon's path (and I tend to agree with you from what I've read), and Canon doesn't use HDV (which hasn't been completely discounted), what else is there?

Just a new proprietary codec? Or is there another route (WMV-HD)? Others?

This line from the e-mail from the rep:" I presume that Canon's
engineers are currently working on something." You know he is right about that. I'm sure they are not sitting around watch TV and wondering what to do next. Are there only two ways to do hi-def? I don't think Canon is going to close up shop.

OK, so if your logic is correct and DVCProHD isn't Canon's path (and I tend to agree with you from what I've read), and Canon doesn't use HDV (which hasn't been completely discounted), what else is there?

Just a new proprietary codec? Or is there another route (WMV-HD)? Others?

That's why I have such a hard time with this speculation...as much as I would love to believe it. Canon has never introduced a new format (digital or analog) as far as I know. They've always piggy backed on the accepted format of the day. I don't mean that as a slam against Canon, it's just what they've always done.

On top of that, as I said before, they've never made any of the accompanying hardware that comes with a new codec, such as decks. They've never needed to because they've always produced cameras that used established formats.

So, if they were to come out with a brand new proprietary codec (which I seriously seriously doubt), they would have two options:

1) Produce a deck, or series of decks, to accompany the new format.

2) Create the new camera with hard drive or solid state recording, eliminating the need for a deck.


Then again, as improbable as this all sounds to me, I suppose that the advent of HD is an opportunity for manufacturers to try to grab some new ground with consumers. So maybe Canon will take this opportunity to change the way they've done business in the past, and actually take a risk in the marketplace.

The only thing I know for certain right now is....yes, Area 51 is fun.
:)

I agree, but you didn't bite on my Wondows Media Video codec speculation. I've got to say that I rendered some helicopter gun camera footage using the WMV-HD codec available in Vegas, and it was exceptionally clean and clear with an incredibly small file size. What are the odds Canon and the Evil Empire Microsoft could join up? Panny is positioning themselves closer with Apple it appears.

I agree with Luis. Unless for some reason, someone is now slipping mind altering drugs into the Canon Marketing and Engineer department heads' coffees, I seriously doubt they go a new format. Maybe a codec that's jammed into miniDV, but even that requires a huge effort to get everyone on board. A new Format (DVCPro for instance) seemed to require a massive task on Panasonic's side. Building Decks, tapes, getting NLE supporters behind it - cameras etc. I mean, really, are people going to go a totally new format, buying new hardware for their workflow etc for 1 camera made by Canon, I doubt it. I mean Canon doesn't even make pro cameras (As far as their Division designation goes of course), and they don't make decks, or monitors or anything. They make lenses, 2 higher end cameras (XLxxx and XMxxx) and consumer cameras. They're not a big player.

But who knows, maybe all that will change.
Aaron

I agree, but you didn't bite on my Wondows Media Video codec speculation

If Canon has decided to not support HDV, I doubt they will turn to WMV-HD as an alternative, given that it would suffer from the same problems.

The microsoft codec, if I understand it correctly, is designed as a delivery codec, not an aquisition format. While the stuff you rendered out may look fantastic, try pulling it back into After Effect, doing some compositing and color correction on it, and then rendering it back out. My guess is that the footage would fall apart faster than DV due to the high and variable compression.

Of course, Aaron brought up a huge point as well, that hadn't even occurred to me yet, a new codec would mean having to get NLE support and that is a huge hurdle that I doubt Canon wants to deal with.

My bet is that they will announce HDV cameras by the end of the year.
Until then we can dream though.

Yeah. As much as I'd love them to license DVCPro (Is anyone even able to do that?!) I think Panasonic would tell them "where to go" unless they got a pretty good deal out of it. I mean if Canon dumped DVCProHD into an XL3 then of course they'll need P2 as well (Or some slot in HDD solution I guess) and so you'd be getting something like an HVX, but with Interchangable lenses. I think that would compete a little too closely with the HVX for Panasonic to want to risk that. Of course, part of the deal could be to not support some of the things that the HVX is, say 1080p or variable framerates - but then, would it be worth Canon's while?

I'm really interested in Canon's reply but I'm not holding my breath. I am probably getting a DVX102a soon to update my XM2 and then wait for the HVX to arrive here in NZ which won't be until early next year I'd imagine. By then who knows what will be around.

Aaron

Actually, the XL2 and GL2 are now listed at canondv.com as their Professional 3 CCD series cameras.

"They make lenses, 2 higher end cameras (XLxxx and XMxxx) and consumer cameras. They're not a big player."

As far as I know, Canon is a huge player in the pro Still Camera department. They make their own CMOS chips along with the cameras, lenses, image stabilization and firmware. I think it's totally possible that they create something on their own. I don't think that would happen, but they certainly have the technology and R&D to pull it off.

I know that CMOS is not the same as CCD and the application is different in still cameras, but I think they are in a good position to make a move with the new HD wave - both for Consumer and Pro applications.

They're certainly pitched to the professional market, but they come from the very same group that produces the ZR, Elura and Optura.

You're right, Canon pretty much dominates the digital SLR market. They are a semiconductor company, a camera company and a lens company--that's the best position you could be in. Clearly they have a lot of R&D in CMOS technology for still camera applications since they pretty much invented that field. So you have to wonder, why don't they put all this muscle into the video division? It's probably not a technological problem because ARRI is using a Super 35mm CMOS chip in their D-20 camera and they've been able to get the data rate out of that sensor for frame rates up to 150 fps.

I'm guessing there are other forces at work here. It may be a legal issues, like patents owned by other companies that Canon does not want to pay royalties for, or it may be internal marketing issues like conflicts with the broadcast lens division.

But seeing how Canon has the sensor expertise and the camera expertise, I don't see why they can't go hog wild and make a blowout product. The only question is, do they want to?

FYI: Article on the ARRI D-20 here : http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/d_20/articles.htm

Thanks for the link Tim, now I wonder who made the Arri CMOS chip...?

Canon could certainly license the dvcpro from panasonic. Other companies do it for their video cameras already, such as Ikegami.

Let's hope they do exactly that. I don't think Panasonic would have any problem accepting the royalty checks.

Canon could also license sony's xdcam technology.

Or Canon could easily also easily use HDV if they really wanted to, they just have to call it something else.

Let's hope they don't. We'll probably know in July.

What are the chances that Canon sits out this year for HD all together, sees which HD format is the most popular (HDV using MiniDV transports or DVCPRO on flash), and then licenses one of them for use in some uber-cam for Summer 2006?

That would be the way to go for Canon; it will give time to XL2 get old and them to be ready to use the best-selling technology of the day.

I hope they are intelligent and do it like this. Probably right now they are banging the head against a wall because of 1080i HDV and looking at JVC with greedy eyes. Lucky for them we think we know their inside politics of arriving late to the party and they have time to fix it.

In my wishes Canon chooses DVCPROHD. That would give them my money, but then, they should announce it before HVX go out.

XL3 might have 1080i and 720p recording.

In either case, Canon has to do something. Technology for video has been improving and evolving so rapidly that I don't think there ever is a "too early" or "too late" time to enter - the tech improvements happen to appear seamlessly. IMO, it's best to come in with as flexible a solution as possible and come in with it early. You can only improve on product that has already been out for a while and you get the customer feedback.

The XL2 came in a little too late, and if Canon takes their time with the XL3, it will be quickly surpassed by what Panasonic, Sony and JVC have already learned from their own models in the field. Be bold Canon!

IMO, if Canon was to sit out this year, i think it would deal large blow to their 'professional' video area....from a busniess stand point, most of the users of 3CCD cameras haven't made the jump to HD Due to the high cost....but the HVX2000 presents an option to change that! Now, granted that Canon has the history of sitting back and watching everyone else duke it out has worked in the past, but it seems like there is a lot of pressure from our community in general to try to get a product that has a longer life span - ie a single camera that could survive the transition from SD to HD - atleast i do, i want something that will not only earn me money now, but be an solid investment for the next 3-4 years and continue earning money then. I won't be able to afford upgrading sets of cameras every 2 years - it just doesn't make financial sense from my busniess stand point. I am an avid canon supporter, and i love my XL-1s's, however i want to upgrade in the next 6-8 mths and if canon's production record stands - anew GL camera before an XL version - i'll have alreay leaped to the HVX2000 before any XL3 info is released.

So if you think about everyone out there who is in the same boat as i am, canon stands to loose a large part of the market share to others (Panny, sony, etc) by their inaction. For every HVX2000 or Z1 sold, that's one less sale canon could of had. Its alright from a business point to say "opps, we made a mistake with that product" - anyone remember coke 2? Coke recognized they made a mistake, corrected it and came out still on top of things. If Canon doesn't wake up, they might not be so fortunate in this section of their market.....

just my 2 cents
~Mike

I think that's a good summing up Mike. I'm one of those who was disappointed with the XL2 and got an FX1 instead. However if they bring out an XL3 then I'll still be interested (I figure I'll have had two years use of my FX1 by then and in pro terms it's a cheap camera).

My worry is that I spoke to one Canon rep who was very disparaging of sales of the XL1. So maybe Canon will only bother with relatively cheap consumer HDV camcorders; it might make more business sense for them.

There have been hints that a new Canon HD(V?) camera isn't too far away, as evidenced by the starting post of this whole thread, by Dave Eanton, which had this link:

http://www.digitalproducer.com/artic...e.jsp?id=32066

The prosumer market has FINALLY accelerated into HD territory after waiting at the border for too long, and continues to pick up speed. Canon HAS to respond to that. I don't believe they'll abandon the "prosumer" market just as new technology is poised to energize it. My bet is in agreement with those who speculate that around the time the Panasonic is ready to ship, Canon will have a WunderKam to announce and promptly ship, as is their style (hopefully an XL form factor, and with better than plain-ol' HDV data rates!). I'd like to see a Canon in July, but I'm guessing more like September/October.

Canon has to come with something better than competition. It be either 1080p or combination 1080i and 720p. JVC is sticking with 720p, Sony with 1080i. Canon would very smart to offer both. If they added 1080p, they could have:

720p24-60
1080i50-60
1080p24-30

They would have winner and it would probably be not hard to do, if they can get somewhere CCD's for it. They make CMOS but will take them couple years to develop CMOS for this. Their CMOS great for digital SLRs but not for this.

Sony makes 1/2 inch 16x9 combination progressive and interlaced 1080i/p chips that would cover all this. If they would sell to Canon at reasonable price, Canon could go develop super 1/2 inch camera that is reasonably priced.

Radek

I've been following this fun and almost completely baseless thread for some time and thought I'd throw my own completely hypothetical 2 cents in. If my theory below has been posted already, I apologize but I must have missed it.

I highly suspect that in addition to a very likely GL3 HDV cam, Canon is going to release an Optura HDV. I realized this after looking at Canon's overall product line, direction and current lineup - combined with what the competition is up to.

Really makes sense, since Canon has really been pushing the envelope with the Optura series. Even the non-canon video fans have to admit that no one can touch the features of an Optura 50/60 at anything near the price. I mean manual audio control, focus ring, 16x9, Primary RGB filter, 1/30th shutter speed, etc.. You're looking at about $1300 for a GS400 or who knows how much for a Sony with all those features.
AND, the Xi (flagship for the Opturas of course) is due for replacement. With Sony releasing an HDV cam for $2000 and knowing fully well that JVC will probably release an even lower cost version, throwing a $1500 Xi2 out there with SD DV might not be the best way to go...

So there it is. Optura HDV. Coming soon for $1799 MSRP, no 24P but with extensive manual controls. I'd say 60% chance of 1080i, 40% chance of 720P.

Philip Williams
www.philipwilliams.com