I'm half way there now across the country.

But next week I'll be back in California for two weeks working on my house.

So.......
 

So should I sell my XL2 now or wait to see fi there will be an upgrade path for current XL2 owners ?

Boy, I do like that black.

Ummm.... XL2S? The XL2, but now with HDV!!! *sarcasm* "Yay"!

It would be amazing if it were uncompressed HDV (since there is NO such thing), but I don't see what it could offer unless it recorded straight to laptop hard drives. Maybe they actually did get the formfactor right so original XL-lenses can work with it? Good for people with XL1/S's and XL2's, but what about those going in for the first time?

I'm just speculating and I'm honestly as excited and giddy as everyone else about it. I wonder what Canon's going to say. =D

Jack, I am exited too, but it's - somebody correct me if I'm wrong - impossible to let the lenses of the XL1/XL1s/XL2 to be compatible with a HDV version of an XL2. Because I think you need a lens that can resolve more resolution than your SD lens.

Decoy camera hopefully.
Kind of like what Chevy would do back in the seventies with some of their emissions strangulated vehicles. Doll the car up in flat black paint trim and stripes and re-package it as a "GT" with no other drastic improvements.
I'm sure Canon knows better than this.
Design issues aside, they really need to drop a high-yield nuclear device at the announcement phase or the party may well be over.
I really want Canon to do this right as I'm sure everyone else does.
The 15th seems so far off...

Pictures at camcorderinfo.com
 

I have no new information on this camera, as Canon wouldn't say anything, however I took some better quality pics of it that are up at www.camcorderinfo.com
There will be more pictures tommorow.

- Mikko

Thanks for the link! Wow, I guess it's real. So, supposing they use something similar to JVC's ProHD that allows for 720/24p, does anyone else think this is another "too little, too late" debut for Canon? The only way they could make it stand out above the JVC is if they introduce HDV at 1080/24p. This would make it a step above the HD100, but still HDV so not as good as HVX200's 1080/24p DVCProHD. If it's only 720/24p HDV, I can't see it doing too well, unless they have something else up their sleeve.

They have potentially have a few things up their sleve:
First off is the fact that HDV is still cheap-long-format HD.. (consumers want cheap more than they want good. [VHS vs BETA]
then as they havent' released a ship date yet, there is always the possibilty (i'd almost bet the case) that they could ship before the HVX..
..and who knows what else it'll do.

- Mikko

Interesting news. But I have to agree I don't see this camera stilling JVC's thunder, unless it offers more. If it's just 720p 24,25 and 30, I don't think it will be much of a hit, unless Canon drops the price dramatically bellow the HD100. Just knowing Canon's products, this camera will most likely follow the XL series design very closely. The body seems to be identical apart of the color. That means no larger LCD display, no real iris ring and all the semi-professional menus and commands from the XL2. All against fully professional menus and features form the JVC. The HD100 just has a better and more professional form factor. This Canon HDV also seems to ship with a 20x OIS style of lens, where the JVC ships with a fully manual professional lens, with a real iris ring. You know, painting a camera full black doesn't make it professional.
Anyway, I think Canon is again, too late on the game and barely playing catch up. Since I really doubt this camera will have more professional features than the XL2 or will shoot 1080 24p or even 720p other than what the HD100 already does, if it shoots 24p at all, I don't see how Canon would beat JVC. The 24p feature is a JVC modification. So maybe this will shoot 1080i only?
Another question is, are they actually developing HD XL lenses or are they just using the XL2 SD lenses? That lens looks just like a 20x sprayed black. My guess is this will be nothing more than a HDV XL2. In this case, it will most likely not be competition for the more professional HD100. We will see how it develops.

There is an HDV door that JVC left wide open for Canon to come in and exceed them with: 1080/24p. If they implement 1080/60i HDV, and then also put 24P in (using the same technique as putting 24P within a DV 60i stream) then the Canon would have two huge selling points against the JVC: 1080/24p instead of 720/24p, and 1080/60i (something the HD100 doesn't have an answer for).

As for lenses, seeing as they will need new lenses anyway (to support HD resolution) this is Canon's chance to ditch the proprietary lens mount and instead go with a standard mount. Then the HD100 and the Canon could actually interchange lenses, too!

I guess it remains to be seen what Canon will actually do; I'm just pointing out a couple of things they could do which would give them selling points against the other HDV product on the market.

Update with pictures
 

Haha that was a fun read.
sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I was at IBC
you want more pictures? here they are:

http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=27

Yeah Barry, as I said, if they offer more than the HD100, they have huges chances to beat it. 1080 24p would be great. Specially if the CCDs were actually 1920x1080. But that would be really the only thing they could do to outdo JVC. Because the JVC will most likely still be more professional oriented.
I somehat doubt Canon would let go on their XL mount though.
But deep down in my heart, I'm 90% sure this will basically be a XL2 in HDV, with maybe 720 24p/30p and nothing else. But I hope I'm wrong.

Well, if you believe camcorderinfo.com's report, prepare for a *huge* disappointment. I just saw that they've revised their front-page story. They claim that they have an exclusive report, from a "source close to Canon", who says that the camera will be 1080i-only. They claim that they specifically asked about 24P, and the Canon source said "no." They claim he said it would have a 24p-like feature (which sounds an awful lot like CineFrame 24) but that it would *not* have 24P. And it wouldn't have 720p either; it'd be 1080i-only.

And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000.

I frankly don't believe it. Canon knows full well how to make 24P within an interlaced data stream (480/24p carried within a DV 60i data stream, as implemented on the XL2) and they know very well how much that feature is desired. I can't comprehend how they would produce this camera and leave out that feature. So I refuse to believe it, until I see Canon's official press release.

$12,000? Who in their right minds would buy a HDV 1080i camera for this price with a camera like the HVX200 selling for under 10k with 2 P2 cards?
It sounds like bogus from camcorderinfo. But even if it cost the same as the XL2 and is 1080i only, it will flop.
Honestly, even if it would do 1080 24p, it would still be the question of the build quality, LCD screen, stock full manual lens, professional features and professional menu where the HD100 would have the edge. So, I really don't see how this camera could be a full threat to the HD100. Unless Canon totally outdo themselves and release a camera with real professional menus on the level of the HD100, professional build quality, offer a manual lens package for the same price as the OIS package, develops better HD glass than the stock 16x fuji, have it shooting 1080 24p and 720p with all frame rates the HD100 does. Then, it would be a huge hit. But the chances for this are very slim. But then again, you never know. They seem to be desperate for releasing a new camera only a short year after the XL2 came out. So, they might really have something worthy up their sleeves. I just feel sorry for those who just bought a XL2. I almost bought one last month. You, Charles and Nate saved me when you released that HD100+Mini35 test. That completely changed my view on HDV which was bad based on the Z1/FX1. Then I decided to check the HD100 and now that's what I'm buying, unless the new Canon does all I said above. But I doubt it. Specially if this camera is a repacked Z1 with interchangeable lens.
Anyway, thanks for saving me guys !

I just read that too and have serious doubts about some of those specs. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that dropping a 10-12K HDV 1080i camcorder into the current market would make a thud louder than a refurbished circuit city DIVX player. Basically we'd be looking at a Z1 with a 5-7K premium for interchangeable lenses. Granted, I'm at the bottom of the food chain with my Optura 30 so I can't speak for the pros, but I'm thinking "nope".

Even if they do 24P in the 1080i stream (which I believe they will), that still makes this a pricey proposition. I think even at $8,000 with 1080 24P this thing wouldn't be competitive. I mean, that's the price of the HVX200 with the newly anounced Firestore. Oh sure, the Canon can change lenses, but that blows the budget WAY up. And even then, you're still left with what is arguably a video format that really doesn't compare too favoribly with Panasonic's.

I'm just not sure who this is targeted at. If it MSRPs at 7K with 1080 24P it might steal some thunder from JVC, certainly. But no 24P and/or a 10K+ price and I just have to wonder. Hmm.. maybe Canon is really going out of their way to keep the XL2 owners happy? If that's the case then Canon is about to learn an important lesson: sometimes you have to cut your losses.

Anyway, can't wait to see the final specs and prices! Maybe they'll still pull a fast one, but at this point I'm thinking the HVX is the big news in HD this year and its not looking like anyone is going to steal Panasonic's thunder.

Philip Williams
www.philipwilliams.com (yeah, site's down)

Feel sorry for no one
 

Why all the posts about feeling sorry for XL2 users about this new camera coming out so soon after the release of the XL2?
There's always something bigger and better around the corner. If the new camera is offering something I really want and can use then I'll simply cut my losses and sell the XL2 and just deal with it.
If its not that much of an improvement, I won't care and keep the XL2.
It called life, you deal with it.

This is what I have to say
 

I love my XL2 and I loved my XL1, but I havve to say being a Canon customer sucks from my perspective. Not only am I a Canon owner but I also sell cameras for a living right now. I put alot of money into my XL2 package as a rental " Digital Cinema Package " with alot of accessories in cluding Cinetech Follow focus and Petroff mattebox, wireless mics, the whole 9 yards...

I got a total of 4 months of rentals out of it before the FX1 and Z1U completely stole its thunder out here in the LA market. Every little TV station and start up production has gone with a Z1U. And they for the most part have regretted the decision, from what I hear from shooter here in LA. I even had to use one for a DVD featurette coming out on the Crash Special Edition DVD ( yes I know, wtf a special edition for Crash ? ). And I thought it was a thrown together concept camera to combat the XL2 because Canon went with their own tape transports on the XL2, thus stiffing Sony.

All I can say to Canon being an owner and seller of thier product is.., There better be a damn upgrade path for a camera thats only been out one year. Panasonic is straightforward with thier customers, they let them know what was going to happen so that thier customer could prepare for the transition. Now everyone has their cards on the table and Canon is still being tightlipped, its rediculous and frankly disloyal to the customers who keep wait and pay for their catch up game. The XL2 Late is absolutely right and it has tarnished the image of Canon in my eyes. I hope that keeping my XL2 until the offical Canon HDV annoucement will not be a bad decision. If it turns out that it is, I will turn my back on Canon and boycott any sales coming through my door and switch them over to Panasonic, which wont be hard.

Please Canon as a loyal a devout customer, don't screw the people who wated soooooo long for the XL2 and are now nervous about what future lies with thier camera. If it will even be worth it, anyone tried to sell SD gear lately ? not an easy thing these days.


Just my 2 but I know some of your feel what I have to say.

James Rhodes signing off

I feel you James. I'm so glad I didn't buy a XL2 last month. I would be really mad right now. I almost got one. I went to the store, tested it and all. I was saved by the gong. I'm glad I waited.

More pix of the HDV Canon
 

Somebody wanted full undoctored images of the Canon, complete with the info on how it was taken, to prove it wasn't photoshoped (how's that for the verbification of nouns).

I take no pride in the quality of these snaps, but its what somebody asked for. BTW, the other image is of a Century Optics 180 degree wide angle adaptor for the Z1 (there's a 120 as well).

http://www.gpjco.tv/ibc

FWIW, there was some real HDX200 footage on the Apple stand (demonistrating P2 integration with FCP). It was from a prototype and therefore was no reflection on the final image quality (thankfully).

The Canon here is obviously a fake. The buttons match up identically with the XL2 that was 3 feet from this box. I guess that Canon had to do SOMETHING what with attending the show that's basically the European NAB, as to not announce anything here, then do it at the Canon event in NY would seem a bit of a snub to the European markets. :-)

IMHO...

Thanks to new members Lars and Matt for providing the higher rez pictures, and to "Major Player" Mikko also for the early confirmation that this mockup was actually at IBC. And Lars, my apologies if I offended you with my initial skepticism...everyone at DVinfo works hard to keep things factual and on-topic and at first this really just seemed, well, not for real. But it appears now that you actually were among the first, if not the very first, on the internet to report the IBC XL HDV mockup, so that deserves big congratulations. Glad you made your way here to DVinfo and look forward to many lively discussions with you.

Since the mockup actually exists, many of us are now really wondering if perhaps it is Canon's Public Relations department that is pulling the trick. Considering that Canon seems to be positioning itself to enter the pro video market (recently realigned their web site: CanonUSA Camcorders), I certainly agree with others that a plain interlaced HDV XL without other substantial features would be a flop, and Canon cannot possibly fail to know that. Add to that the fact that Canon is apparently saying NOTHING at IBC, and it starts to smell like they're deliberately trying to generate "buzz"...hyped speculation. And that's exactly what we all are doing. So if that's their plan, it's working! Canon Expo has seemed like the logical place for an announcement, and this makes it seem nearly a certainty. No idea if it'll actually look like the mockup, or if that is just a total trick.

And to those slamming Canon in advance for announcing an HD XL, I have to respectfully disagree. You bought the best miniDV camera, and your XL2 will still be the best miniDV camera around. It won't depreciate to zero the day an HD camera is announced. In fact, I think used XL2's will be sought after by those who are sticking with SD for another year or two or three. So if you're not enjoying it or making money with it, sell it. But if you want to shoot HD, it is just reality that you're going to have to pay the premium for that. I'd anticipate that the new WunderKam is going to cost a good bit more than an XL2 does...probably more along the lines of a tricked out HVX200. There's nothing wrong with Canon competing in a new market space; in fact, a lot of us can hardly wait. I knew when I bought my XL2 that I'd be going to HD within a year or so, but I bought it anyway -- same as everyone else who bought one.

I'll bet that in just a few days we will be adding solid facts on a new WunderKam to this thread. If, in the unlikely event, that Canon has been totally asleep at the wheel the last couple of years, and the company announces a ho-hum HDV camera at too high a price point, then I'll be disappointed. Today is too soon to be disappointed.

XL2 upgrade
 

I don't know if this has been said before, but would It not be wise if Canon offered some kind of upgrade to XL2 customers, say for example that XL2 customers hand in their cameras and Canon just replace the internal electronics(I suppose then you would still have the problem of the SD lens, perhaps some kind of "basic" HD lens at discounted rates for XL2 owners?)

Anhar Hussain Miah

I gotta chime in here and say that these camcorder.info specs are either:

A. Totally bogus.

B. Demonstrate that the people at Canon have gone totally mad.

I'm betting on A.

Anhar,
Yeah, I'd always hoped I could just swap out the camera body and continue to use my existing lenses. But a number of people who seem pretty knowledgeable about optics have indicated that the lenses now available just won't have the resolving power to do HD justice. So it may be that both camera and lenses will need to be new in order to really do HD right.

Glenn,
I vote "A" also.

Let's hope the wait for some real info is only a couple more days!

I vote for "A".

i can't be positive but I read once that camcorder.info is wrong 7 out of 10 times.

Plus, If I wanted to think as a business man. What better way to take the wind out of another companies sails (or sells), than to plant false information.

What I'm seeing on the net. There is as much interest in the Canon as the new Panny.

If you really want to think like a business man then just wait a few more days and see what Canon really announces.... ;-)

Okay, I've been looking at the pics and reading the wild rumors... so I'll officially stick my neck out at this point. I think the "BlackCam" is a decoy. And I don't think whatever they announce will be a simple HDV model.

The clock is ticking.


And speaking as one who bought an Xl2 at a premium price in November last year. If the new cam is simply HDV... then I think my money was well spent, as I intend to skip over HDV for the next "HD prosumer" format. IF the cam is HD in some fashion, then I'll weigh in on trading in my Xl2 in a year. It's already paid for itself.

Sorry, but that's not going to happen. It's more complicated than that. They can't just swap electronics like that.

I still think that is a dummy camera. I am not a fanboy for any manufacturer so the one with the best product/price/features gets my business. I currenly own an XL2 and an DVX100a, I use both daily. Just do the math and the info doesnt add up... right now an XL2 has a street price of around $3600. Would you pay THREE TIMES THAT just to ONLY be able to shoot in 1080i? Nobody would. I would rather shoot in 24P SD and have it blown up. For it to be $10-$12k it would have to be a 2/3" CCD camera and I dont think you can fit all that in the XL2 body.

Also, do you think Canon would release a camera that is DOUBLE the price of its HIGHEST priced competitor in the 1/3" CCD class that lacked features?

The only other possible explanation is that there will be some sort of native HD and maybe 60 minutes of flash media is IN the camera or included. That wouldnt make sense to me either.

Whatever the case, I highly doubt the info out is correct and if it is, Canon may not make their R&D back...



ash =o)

I saw the camera at IBC. It is a mock up model, made out of wood. The sales people were told to say absolutly nothing about the camera. He did tell me that they were not going to ax the xl2 straight away. He would not tell me anything about when the camera would be ready. My feeling is there is no camera yet but because everybody is doing HD they had to come with something to the IBC. They usually do not show any camera at ibc. Its the canon lenses they show here. Now they had two camera's (xl2) and the mock up.I have some photo's I will load up later

I'm with you up to this point, Richard.

Frankly, the jump to $10-$12K is too much, because it won't stop there. You're looking at another $15K to upgrade your post facility to HD. I'm not going broke, but I don't have another $25K laying around, either.

For me, my business is still client driven. So far, no one has asked that their project be produced in HD.

I got sucked into an upgrade this past Spring on a video product, and it wasn't a smart move because the product wasn't ready for prime-time. Luckily, I got my money back. So no more consumer frenzy spending for me.

Beware of lemmings!

Jay

It would be nice though ;-)

I am very curious about Canon's move, they have hard competition with JVC already offering interchangible lens system and Panasonic with the specs of the HVX.
I hope they can offer something nice, though.

i have two project deadlines this month. i better use my HVX200 to get the job done. oh right, i don't own one yet because it's still just a twinkle in panasonic's eye. when i finish them, i will burn them to a Blu-Ray disc. oh, i forgot, that delivery system hasn't been invented yet and is at least a year away.

canon is far from late to this party...and my xl2 is more than up to the jobs.

i think the whole spray-painted-camera-in-a-box is just a little joke from canon that got sort of out of hand, due to the world wide web factor and all of the anxiety out here about whether we plunked our money down on the wrong thing or the right thing.

it is *not* an easy time to make choices about these purchases, period. and those times are actually the most exciting times in any technological revolution.

ask me how much money i've dumped into new computers and upgraded software since 1985. so, why do we expect to buy one camera that is the be all/end all?

You guys are funny. "Fakes" and "jokes by Canon." I don't even get what people are thinking. Hmm...let's put out a "lesser model fake" to get everyone pissed off at us...than we'll win 'em all back in a week when we announce the real deal! Come on...

Man, I'm glad none of you are the heads of marketing departments.

Let's hope it's not 1080i only. I'll be disappointed with just HDV, BUT if it is 1080-24p, it could be a very, very good camera. Without the 24p, I think it's a deal killer and I'll go with the Panny...and keep my XL2.

Kevin

While I think Canon is doing some consumer manipulation and marketing with this HDV XL, I certainly agree that I wouldn't expect it to be any kind of joke or fake. No, I think this thing is generating quite a bit of buz and easy publicity, which is great considering how little it probably cost to get that mockup into the glass case. The big questions aren't if its real or not of course, but how much and what features? Who knows, maybe it'll land at $5,500 and beat the Z1 at its own 1080i game? Or it could come in at $6500 with 1080 24P and make some potential HVX buyers rethink the DVCPROHD/P2/Laptop/Firestore VS HDV/$5 Tape advantages.

Whatever the case, the more I think about it, I believe this Canon will be at least somewhat competitive within its feature/price point. Might it only be 1080i? Sure. Will it cost $10,000 then? No way.

Of course for me personally, the bigest disappointment might end up being if this is their only HDV cam anouncement for the year. While I enjoy watching the hi-end cams the reality is I'll probably never be able to afford one since I don't make my living with video. However, I really had (well, still have) my fingers crossed for an $1800 Optura HDV to replace the Xi and go head on with the HC1. Oh well, different thread I suppose.

Philip Williams

Thanks to dvinfo.net Chris Hurd for letting me upload to the gallery, I will post more images in there.

And I completly support the sceptiscism of the forum. without it there would be too many rumors based on nothing.

Now we have to wait for more info from Canon about the specs.

I have to believe the rumors are false, simply because Canon couldn't possibly be so stupid as to launch a relative turd in the face of JVC and Panasonic.

Hey Tim, you said in one line of text what it took me about a dozen posts over three or four related threads to say! What you may lack in refined eloquence, you more than make up for in brute clarity!
;-)
Now, bring on Canon Expo!

I've read several posts indicating the use of current XL lenses couldn't resolve enough detail or resolution to be used in an HDV cam. I know that when using the EF adapter and using EOS lenses the camera sharpens up nicely and since the resolution of Canon's DSLR's are up to 16MP- I think we don't need to worry about the resolving power of a lens they mate to their upcoming HDV camera- if it is in fact XL based.

I for one wouldn't mind at all if they released a simple HDV version of their XL cam with 720p or 1080i with a slight increase in price ($4000??) with interchangeable lenses- imagine the telephoto/macro possibilities (nature) and shooting HDV.....would be great!

What can I say, Pete...raised in Chicago and making my name in the redneck plantation of Iowa. We like to call 'dem thing as we see 'dem 'round these here parts.