Yes. you can. However, you would do well to have the two sources at about the same level, especailly if feeding it to the Audio 1 input. This minimizes possible issues with level balance between the cahnnels.

Mr C.

If you are using an XL1s, you may want to set the "Rec Level"switch to "M" or manual so the camera's AGC is not bringing up a channel that may have its mic turned off.

Your technique is very common. Use the shotgun for Nat. sound and backup audio in case the wireless fails while using the wireless for the Talant's dialoge.

Note: the MA-100 does not provide Phantom power for mics so your shotgun will need to have a battery option (ie: A-T 835b)

Cheers.

MA100 audio noise
 

I have a MA100 and it is very quiet, I have used it with ev mics and the Sure SM58, and both were quiet. On "low" output mics, you need to add a Mic pre-amp to compensate, rather than crank up the gain in the XL (which will cause noise.) also turn off the auto level control and set level manually. Keep peaks below "0".
aholston

hi
one little question on the side,. do you need the 'sennheiser k6' to run the 'sennheiser ME66 or can MA-100 take care of it?
sorry for this newbee question,.
i need to investigate before i buy both Camera and things to go with it,.:)

tHx

You do need the K6 to power the ME66 element for use with the MA-100. The K6 allows the use of battery or phantom power.

The K6P requires phantom power and is not suitable for use with the MA-100 unless you have a source of pahtompower.

The K6 is the best way to go. Allowing you to use battery power when in the field and using on camera, or phantom power when you have it available. aholston

ok thanks guys.


this is a great forum!

What circuitry, if any, is inside the MA-100 (or 200, for that matter)? Do actually supply a balanced line conversion, or do they simply convert the connectors for convenience?

Unbalanced. Don might know something about what else is going on inside.

What circuitry, if any, is inside the MA-100 (or 200, for that matter)? Do actually supply a balanced line conversion, or do they simply convert the connectors for convenience?

The circuits are based on operational amplifiers, which are connected in a way do a balanced to unbalanced conversion. The wiring specifics are hiddend in the integrated circuits, but there are a number of published circuits for this purpose. The input is balanced, so it provides the common mode rejection of a balanced input. The output is single ended (not balanced). And the unit provides about 6 dB of gain to boot.

Thank you, Don, and apologies to all for the duplicated post (I was tempted to drop it in one more time just to be really annoying).

Now, other than providing additional volume controls, what do the Beachtek or Studio 1 units do above and beyond the MA100? I have heard the Studio 1 is quieter, but being built for the mike input is not so great considering we have those RCA jacks on the XL1. And now they are apparently only making units that are intended to be worn on the built, presumably to avoid noise/interference issues.

The reason I am wondering about all this is because I am finally moving forward on making my long-threatened custom base for the XL1 that, among other things, will have power, audio and video distribution with the appropriate connectors to accomodate my film accessories. I intend to build in two XLR connectors and am wondering about how much circuitry I will need to do a good job. Looks like I will be employing an engineer to do the wiring & want to give him as much info on the audio needs as possible (they are a lot more complicated, apparently, than the power and video which just requires shielding.

The Beachtek and Studio One are passive devices (no possibility for gain) that use transformers for the balanced-to-unbalanced conversion. FOr this reason,they could be lower noise, but may not be in some environments, especially of the transformer is not well shielded.) They offer some options as to high/low level input and some grounding options.

The MA-100 is designed for mic-level input will clip/saturate if you give it a line-level input.

Which is better for your application? I really can't answer that.

As Don stated;

Beachtek and Studio One are passive devices, this, among other things, means, that they do NOT require an external power source, and usually employ transformers. The MA100/200and boxes like Sounddevices are active devices, and require a power source (your first hint at which type you are using). Passive devices most always (better ones anyway) and some active devices employ transformers. Active boxes can also employ the "impedance" balanced outputs using amps. To do the conversion from High Z to Lo Z, bal. to unbal. norm. used fop mics.

Balanced refers to the fact that there are two symmetrical signal lines and one ground, while unbalanced uses just one signal line in reference to ground.
The balanced input signal is then converted to an unbalanced output through an impedance matching transformer.

The following is a quote from Sounddevices:
"…the best type of topology for inputs or outputs (but especially inputs) is one which uses a high-quality transformer, as transformers provide galvanic isolation and typically provide the superior common-mode and RF rejection compared to non-transformer balanced inputs or outputs. However, when a transformer-balanced output driver is not practical, Sound Devices feels that the "impedance" balanced output is the best. ("Impedance" balanced is really a misnomer - it is simply a truly "balanced" output stage.) This topology has equal impedances from pin 2 to ground and from pin 3 to ground; however, only pin 2 is driven with signal voltage. It provides common-mode rejection of unwanted noise into a balanced output just like an "active" balanced or a transformer balanced output stage. This topology is not new at all, it has been used for years in audio equipment. It works equally well with line-level or mic-level signals - Neumann microphones are one of many examples of equipment utilizing this topology."
The advantages of the "impedance" balanced output topology are:
1. Stability issues that exist with "cross-coupled" balanced outputs are eliminated.
2. Unbalancing the output is easy- pin 3 can be either grounded or ungrounded, and it will work fine.
3. There is no 6 dB loss of signal going from balanced to unbalanced output as there is with a standard active balanced output.
4. It uses less parts and is therefore more reliable.
The only real caveat with the "impedance" balanced output is that it cannot provide inversion of the signal polarity, as pin 3 is not driven."

The common misperception is that a balanced output stage needs to have equal and opposite signals on pins 2 and 3 of the XLR connector (or tip and ring of a 1/4" connector). Actually, what defines a system as balanced is that the impedances from pin 2 to ground and from pin 3 to ground are both equal. The signal(s) appearing at the output pins has nothing to do with whether the output stage is balanced or not. Bill Whitlock, President of Jensen Transformers and a noted authority on this topic, offers an excellent overview on balanced and unbalanced systems in his paper, Interconnection of Balanced and Unbalanced Equipment.

Hopefully, this explanation has been a help. If you understand it all, than a job as an audio engineer may be in the wings for you!

As Don noted, which way to go -- is your choice based on what you want to accomplish. I would recommend buying componets that can be connected to meet your goal, rather than building, unless, of course, you are an audio engineer.

Thank you so much fellas, that's a world of info and ummm--no, I don't understand it, but then again that's what audio guys are for! I will definitely pass it on to the person that makes up my box for me, though.

Gee whiz. This could be a Watchdog article.

Your deal too, Charles, when it's built... I want pictures.

You'll get 'em Chris, no doubt. When I get through with this camera--hoo boy. (And then the XL2 will come out).

Charles,

You might want to check out these folks http://www.sounddevices.com/index.html They are the people that Al quoted above. They have two very nice products that you might be interested in. If not for purchase, ideas for your own adapter. The first is the MM-1, I've had one for about a month now and absolutly love. The specs are out of sight compared to the Studio 1 and Beachtek. The second is the MP-1, basically the same, but without the headphone monitoring.

Jeff

Jeff has a very good point. The Sounddevices MM1 is head and sholders above the others. Also check out the MixPre, a full featured 2-chan. XLR-in/XLR-out and unbal out mixer w/mic. power(unit is batt. powered) an, is not much bigger than the MM1. It has tha advantage of adding "pan" to each input and as well as headphone monitoring. It can be used both "on" and "off" the camera for seperate "soundman" operation. Prices run about $700-800 for this very ncie and rugged unit.

MA100 - Audio levels very low
 

I have just started experimenting with the MA100.

With a super cartoid EV mic connected I cannot seem to get a signal past about -50dB. Have tried both inputs and the other is even worse. Is it possible that my MA-100 is faulty?

Cheers
Andrew

Do you have the Audio1 In set for MIC level? That is the most common cause of the situation you report. You have to make the selection from the menu in addition to selecting Audio 1 from on the switch behind the door. The XL1 defaults to line level input until changed. If using 12-bit, 4-channel mode, the menu selection applies to Audio 2 In levels too.

Ma-100 gone bad
 

not sure how but my ma-100 goes bad just before i'm about to mic up our guest speaker...very strange at first i thought it was the cam, but a quick audio check and everything worked..has anyone had a ma-100 go bad on them...basically the left channel has no audio...

is this thing under warrenty (i had this unit less then a year)?? well my first call into canon tomorrow if anyon ehas any advice or tips, very welcomed

First report of bad MA-100 I've read. If I had to make a guess, my first guess woud be the audio cable RCA plug for the left channel.

fixed it myself, turned out to be bad soildering on canon's part as apposed to the right channel that was done properly, i just re-soildered it the entire process took 5 min...

Help. Need MA-100 help
 

For some I can't get audio from my microphone going through the MA-100 to the XL1. I'm not sure why. I just rented it to do a quick project and I'm on a tight schedule. If someone could just give me a step by step guide to hooking it up that would be great. Thanks.

How are you hooking up the audio? Are you using the included mic or are you using an external mic? Any adapters for XLR connectors or balanced audio? Directions are included in the manual that can be down loaded here http://www.canondv.com/downloads/manuals.html I would be happy to walk you through the whole audio set-up, but to save time, provide the necessary details of your camera set-up.

Jeff

As Jeff notes, there are several options for audio and use of the MA-100 with the XL1. This summary assumes the obly MIC is the external mics connected via the MA-100, and that you are not using the standad Canon stereo mic.

Connect the MA-100 RCA cords to the left and right audio 1 jacks (red and white) on the back of the body behind the hinged door next to the video output jack (not the Audio 2 jacks on the side of the handle).

Connect the MA-100 power (the 2.5mm sub mini phone plug) to the corresponding jack between the video and audio jacks on the back of the body.

Open the left side door and and set the MIC/Audio 1 input select to Audio 1. Set the Rec Level to A or M depending on whet6her you want AGC or manual gain mode.

Open the sliding door that is forward of the power/mode control dial to access the menu controls. Set the audio mode (probably to 16-bit), and then set the the Audio 1 input level range (most likely MIC or MIC ATT. (NOte that ithe MIC/Audio 1 switch must be set to Audio 1 to set the Audio 1 input in the menu)

Set the Audio monitor is set to the mode you are using (e.g., St 1). Mode is displayed on the meter.)

Connect earphones to the (green) phone jack.

Additionally, if you are using microphones that require phantom power (fairly common), the MA-100 does not supply this. You'll need to run them thru a phantom module.

AUdio? MA-100, MA-200 or Beachtec?
 

At the last shoot, we used a pin mic XLR conector, used a RCA->XLR adaptor (one piece adaptor that converts one xlr-> RCA. costed $5apiece) pluged in the Stereo 2 L and R channel.
Almost had a heart attack when I found out, my editting environment (Canopus Raptor + Premeire nor Final cut pro)(I don't understand. Why don't NLE software support 4ch. audio? Isn't 4ch audio supposed to be comon DV format?) did not support 4 channel audio. We did pull it off, but my college had to go through alot of mess.
Now I know NOT to use 4ch. audio in our editing environment at least.

So I figure I go get a adaptor that would converts XLR-> minijack. But I am aware of these nifty gadgets MA-100/MA-200 or the Beachtec DXA-4S.

Obviously the MA-100/200 has its advantage as a shoulder pad, and the beachtek is not a shoulder pad, but has audio level dials. Audio wise, are these gadgets a BIG difference from the simple adaptor just thinking of audio quality?
Has anyone used both canon and beachtek? It would be great if you can give me some advice on what to buy.

I am sure someone has brought this issue up. I tried to search the site, but wasn't able to find much.

Sorry didn't have enough time to make this a short email.!
takeshi

4-Track Use Scenalyzer
 

For 4-track try using Scenalyzer. Info on Scenalyzer is at http://www.scenalyzer.com.

Happy Holidays,

Some capture systems do support 4-track, but most camcorders do not do 4-track just naturally, so many editors do not support it. The Dazzle-Fast DV.now family also supports 4-channel capture.

Alternatively you can also capture the Audio 2 channels usinganan analog audio card and sync in post. Works but adds a couple steps.

The MA-100/200 works well as long as you avoid line-level sources, and they provide some gain. Some folks (mainly in the GL1 community) have complained about the Beachtek not doing well with some prosumer mics (e.g., the Azdens) due to its low input impedance and the somewhat higher characteristic impedance of the Azdens..

Thanks, but
 

I am using a canopus Raptor, and I believe it uses a Canopus Codec. If I use a third party program will it capture in this codec?
Takeshi

The DV.now products capture the Audio 2 channels to individual .WAV files. Not sure about other products that do 4-channel capture.

shotgun and wireless to MA100 HELP
 

I recently bought a shotgun mic with XLR connection. I also have an Evolution series wireless (which I really like). I am trying to set my XL1s just like the ENG cameras I have used so many years in the news biz. I have hooked both my shotgun and wireless directly into my MA-100. I understand that I may be sacrificing sound quality by going from 16bit to 12bit. Also, is it true that I cannot individually control the sound input of each channel (shotgun or wireless)? My main concern is to be able to control these inputs seperately-which I don't think can be done. If anyone has this setup (shotgun and wireless--to--MA100) please tell me the best way to get the best audio I can. Thanks

Kelly...

Stick to 16-bit audio. You'll have fewer problems in the long run (potential audio sync problems with some NLE systems).

You should be able to balance the wireless' level with that of the shotgun. I generally set my camera's levels manually and make sure my wireless input is adusted appropriately to get enough level yet not so much as to cause any distortion.

There's a balance control available just aft of the main level control. You can use this to fine tune the balance if necessary. I generally avoid it and fine tune in post.

Dean Sensui
Base Two Productions

12-bit sound wil hve somewhat limited freqeinc response (around 15 kHz) and uses some compressionto retain dynamic range. 16-bit sound is better, but mode will not hear the difference with typical progrm material.

The Audio 1 manual gain adjustment is a ganged level control and a balance control (not the most convenient way to do it but it works). The audio 2 manual gain adjustmens are a level control for each inout channel.

Thanks guys, so the only way to get both channels with 16bit audio is to do what? Do I need to plug my wireless into the jack on the handle and the shotgun I bought with XLR inputs into the MA-100? Or can I plug both into the MA-100 yet I will only have one level control for both channels (which is OK if that is what I have to do to retain 16bit audio). Still a little confused.

MA100 not working - help, please!
 

External mike and 5m XLR cable work fine, and a signal is received at my NLE system's input mixer, but nothing gets through my MA100.

I have the 6V power lead plugged in, camera battery charged and camera ON.

I have taken the MA100 apart (LOTS of screws) but there is nothing obviously wrong inside.

I expect I'm missing something simple and even stupid, but don't know what.

Any ideas will be gratefully received.

With regards,

Roddy

Check your switches and make sure they are set correctly. The switch behind the white door should be set to Audio 1 (not Mic or ATT). On the internal menu, seen in the view finder, Audio 1 in should me set to Mic.

Does the mic require phantom power? If so the MA-100 does not supply phantom power. You will need to use an external adapter to supply power. Does you mic require an internal battery? have you replaced the mic battery with a known good battery?

You can connect both the the MA100. YOur wireless may need an XLR adapter. It would make life a bit easier if they both have about the same output level. Use the balance control and level controls to adjust manual record level.

Note that if using AGC, loud sound in one may cause the level to drop in both channels. just try to match theri output levels.

Note that some wireless systems have significantly higher output level than some shotgun mics.