you should try to run with the audio knob around 50%...max will add all kinds of hiss that is full spectrum, so can't be removed well in post. Something called electronics ceiling or basement or something like that causes this.

The mark at -12 is 12 dB below maximum digital record level (or the point where clipping starts). This is a reasonable level for most (but not all) purposes, and gives sufficient head room so that that sudden loud sounds will not clip. Many professionals use more like 18 dB of headroom in their recordings.

The levels you report with manual gain are characteristic of the relatively low output level of dynamic mics. The final criteria of course is how the captured sound is when you go to edit. You can always adjust level in post, but it is more difficult to remove distortion caused by clipping or overloading the preamps during recording.

The baseline noise is typically set by the first set of preamps, and subsequent amps do not contribute much to it, so it is usually desirable to have as high a starting audio signal as is practicable. But things are not always that simple.

Condenser mics have higher output due in part to having an internal amplifier. Some have higher noise levels from their internal amps than others, and in fact some low cost mics may contribute more noise than the camcorder's preamps, so it becomes a matter selecting and matching the equipment to the best advantage, and operating the equipment in ways that minimize objectionable noise in the final output.

It is worth noting that many people find totally noise free audio some what unsettling, probably because it is unnatural.

Automatic Gain Control.

Very basically, AGC works by the camera's audio gain increasing to maximum until an audio signal is "heard". Then the gain drops down to a level that puts that "heard" sound in proper balance. From that point forward, AGC adjusts incoming audio to keep it within that proper balance.

A pause, or extended lapse in sound, forces AGC to again increase to maximum while waiting for the next audio signal, which repeats the auto adjustment process.

Depending upon the situation, this is acceptable or not. The positive is an average stable signal with annoying high points. The negative is continually variable gain levels which is, at the very least, an invitation to long and tedious audio editing sessions. If you need to use AGC, try to make it the ambient audio track in post.

For live performance shoots at least one of my cameras is set to AGC. The others are fixed to stable audio audio feeds.

All of the audio guys that have hooked up to my camera with mixers always set their tone level at -20 dB.

A follow up question regarding the MA-100 used with the Beyerdynamic mic.

I have recorded an interview and when I recorded this I had the Rec Level at 50% since I didn't want to introduce too much interference or noise.

Now that I am editing this the audio is clean but the level are low. EG Sitting between -30 and -40 db.

I can bring up the levels so it sits around the to -20 to -8 which is just acceptable but that is the maximum level my NLE will allow me.

I have 2 questions.
1) Is there anything I can do in post to increase these levels further? (I think possibly not since I have increased the levels to as high as I can)

2) What should / can I do next time I have to do an interview to get a louder and clear sound? EG Is it just a matter of increasing the recording levels? I hesitated with this on this recording due to the fear of introducing too much noise.

You can export the audio from the NLE, edit it in an audio editing program such as Audition, and then bring it back into your NLE.

Alternatively recapture the audio as analog played back by your MiniDV player, and adjust the audio level as part of the analog capture process.

In general, it is best to record the audio as close to the final intended level as you reasonably can. Amplifying the audio later also amplifies what ever noise was in the original recording as well, so recording at a low level has little or no noise benefit, and may actually hurt overall noise performance depending on the details of the systems involved.

Thanks Don,

Just a side question.

If I had a camera that delivered 48v phantom power or even a mixer would this give a better recording level of my Beyerdynamic microphone without having to ride the recording level myself?

The reason being with my current setup (Canon XL1 & MA-100) it just seems as though the mic has to almost be sitting on an interviewee's chin to really get a nice solid clean sound. I guess I have abit of a phobia about increasing the recording level too much since I can hear / feel this adding unwanted interference. I see interviewers on TV etc with what appears to be the same mic with it some 20 cm away from the talents mouth and getting good results.

Dynamic mics have very small regions of good pickup. If you want farther reach, you'll need a condenser mic to get longer throw. Dynamic mics should be about 6 inches or less from the speaker to get a *really* good signal.

Thanks Cole,

Do you have any preferred condensor mic?

Also how is a condensor mic powered?

Meaning does it require phantom power from the camera or a mixer or do they run from AAA batteries?

Thanks

I've got a Sony ECM 672 that runs off of a battery (single AA). On our last shoot, we used a Sennheiser 418? (Wonderful-ran off a phantom power inline box that came with it.)

I previously used an Audio Technica ATR55 (also ran off a AA), but since I use flourescents on my set, the audio buzz was unbearable and forced me to use noise reduction in post that ate away at the bottom end of all the voices :( The audio in my short "Scare Tactics" is the result - I also have raw footage from "French Onion" at http://www.yafiunderground.com/bolts.php with the buzzing for your reference. This buzzing was solved by switching to an XLR-based audio system.

There are plenty of good condenser mics out there, I'm personally a big fan of a nice shotgun mic (as you may be able to tell), but I do narrative work almost exclusively so far. I do have a couple of wireless lavs for when I've done weddings in the past, but I haven't used them as much as my shotguns. These mics were used in the car interior in "The Stream, The Cave ,Jim and Dave". They are Audio Technica lavs (not low end, not high end...don't know the model off the top of my head - they're not XLR though).

These forums have tons of recommendations, ty ford has a video on his website that has a good example of several different microphone types. I don't have the URL of that off the top of my head, a search here for him should get you there eventually ;)

First, some mics are more sensitive than others; i.e., the amount of voltage output you get for a give sound pressure level reaching the mic. Condenser mics usually are more "sensitive" than dynamic because they have internal amplifiers. But condenser mics also have internal noise sources (the amplifiers) so you may find that they have a high noise floor, especially the lower cost models.

Some folks say a shotgun mic has more reach than non-shotgun mics. Actually, they just typically have more internal gain and more rejection of noise from the sides and/or back of the mic. You can interpret that as providing more reach if you like. However, if you factor in the sound quality (e.g., spoken voice) and discount other sound sources and reflected sounds, they are no better than non-shotgun mics, and possibly worse for pick-up of somewhat off-axis sounds due to their frequency pickup pattern characteristics. The benefit of the shotgun is suppression of sound from the sides and back, an important benefit in many venues.

It boils down to having the right mic for the shooting circumstances, and there is no one right mic that can cover every situation.

I suspect that you will seldom find a shotgun mic used as the mic of choice where the recording sound environment and be controlled.

Mics that require power may be powered by an internal battery (e.g., NTG-2, AT837) or by "phantom power" (e.g., NTG-1) or by some proprietary means specific to the brand/model (e.g., Canon's furnished mic). Which is the better way? it very much depends on the characteristics of the mic, but the combination using phantom or battery is the most flexible for most shooters?

Back again guys.

This time what I want to do is set my audio up to record 4 Channels.

Actually I only need to record on 3 channels.
Channel 1 & 2 = Stereo lavalier mic
Channel 3 = Handheld Beyerdynamic Condenser mic

The deal is I want to have a lavalier mic which is stereo which I want to connect to the mini jack where the Camera Mic usually is. I will be using this mic for a sit down interview whereby I want to talent to use.

Then I want to have a handheld mic connected to my MA-100 XLR connection for me to use to ask the various questions during the interview.

The cameras menu setup is the following:
Sensor ... ON
Tally Lamp ...OFF
Audio Mode ... 12bit ST-1,2
Audio 1 In ... MIC
Audio 2 In ... MIC
Rec Mode ... SP"

I have played around with Audio 1 In .... & Audio 2 In .... (eg Setting to Line)
but no success.

I then select on the actual camera where the audio controls are (under the white flap) for AUDIO1\MIC to AUDIO 1

But at this stage I am getting no audio whatsoever.

Any advice would be again greatly appreciated.

PS: Audio changes / setup in the Menu should work across all types of recording? Meaning in either Auto mode or Manual Mode?

Also I have read and followed the XL1 Audio Step by Step article at
http://www.dvinfo.net/canon/articles/article71.php#3

But still no luck.

Thanks

Connecting to the mic miniplug has worked very poorly for me in the past. I've had to crank the gain up to max to hear anything. I think canon made a very non-standard microphone/input combination there. I had questions about this that when asked, no one on this board was able to answer (perhaps 'cause I was green and asking the wrong questions) at the time.

But a standard mic level doesn't seem to work through that input. Someone correct me, then tell me what I was doing wrong.

I actually get half decent sound when running my cheap lavalier mic from the mini jack Camera connection.

But my problem is I want to run the lavalier mic as well as a handheld.

The mini-jack mic input is 600 ohm input impedance, unbalanced at standard mic level sensitivity. it should work fine with any quality lav mic if you have an appropriate balanced-to-unbalanced adapter (if needed), but due to its low input impedance, may not give satisfactory results with some low cost consumer lav mics, or mics that require power supply over the audio cable.

To use 3 mics, you need to set up for 4-channel 12-bit ST-1/2 recording in the menus.

If using a stereo mic connected to the mic jack, you set the MIC/Audio1 switch behind the door to MIC (or mic att).

The MA-100 connects to the Audio 2 jack on the side of the handle. (The MA-100 power lead still connects to the back of the handle.) Be sure the set the audio 2 input level (from the menu) to mic or mic att as appropriate for your source

Select auto or manual level control as appropriate forre the ST1 and ST2 inputs.

And remember to set the metering and headphone monitoring to the correct setting for what you want to meter/monitor as well. Otherwise you will not see or hear what is going on audio wise.

Thanks Don,

I am managing to get sound out of my handheld mic via the MA-100 but no sound from the mini jack stero mic.

I have set 4-channel 12-bit ST-1/2

The cameras menu setup is the following:
Sensor ... ON
Tally Lamp ...OFF
Audio Mode ... 12bit ST-1,2
Audio 1 In ... ----
Audio 2 In ... MIC
Rec Mode ... SP"

But I still don't get any audio from the camera mic or when I hook up my stereo lavalier mic.

In the menu when I scroll to Audio 1 In and try selecting it to set it but I am unable to do it.

What am I doing wrong?

To update further.

Once my menu is as follows:

Audio Mode ... 12bit ST-1,2
Audio 1 In ... ----
Audio 2 In ... MIC

I have followed Don instructions but I am unable to get 3 channels of audio simultaneously. EG Lavalier mic in stereo and handheld mic.

For example when I setup as instructed and then shut the camera down and restart in manual mode I get displayed on the camera screen:

Stereo 01
12bit ST-1, 2

I then go into the menu of the camera and have the following settings:
Audio Mode ... 12bit ST-1,2
Audio 1 In ... ----
Audio 2 In ... MIC

If I change the setting to:
Audio Mode ... 12bit ST-1,2
Audio 1 In ... ----
Audio 2 In ... LINE

and then close the menu I get displayed on the camera screen:
Stereo 02
12bit ST-1, 2

But then I shut the camera off and restart and it returns with the following display:

Stereo 01
12bit ST-1, 2

Which gives me the Stereo Camera Mic or Stereo Lavailier Mic functioning depending which one I have plugged in but no Handheld mic response.

Irrespective whether I set AUDIO 2 to MIC or LINE, I still get no audio out of the handheld mic.

Am I still doing something major wrong or is my camera at fault?

Are you pressing the Audio Monitor button to allow monitoring both audio pair of channels? See page 39 (in the case of the NTSC XL1 manual) , Making a Sound Check, and page 60, Selecting Audio Output.

Probems with the MA-100
 

I just bought the MA-100 and a new Audio Technica mic new from B&H PhotoVideo.

The original problem this was when I hooked up the MA-100 there was no sound when I hooked up any xlr mics to it. Immediately I though I must be doing something wrong. I went into the menu on the XL1 and switched the input on audio 1 to "MIC" from "LINE". What I got was sound, but it was drowned out by a high pitched squeal. Unfortunately my audio 2 has never worked so I can't test it there. I then removed the xlr microphone from the MA-100 and the squeal remained. I'm not really sure what to do here.

So a few questions:

Has this happened to anyone else before? and if so, How did you resolve it?

If you own the MA-100, what settings in the XL1 do you use?

Do you have any advice for me?

Thanks in advance.

fix it yet?
 

I have the exact same problem. I just posted about it. If you and I both had this problem and we've both tried a lot of things to fix it, I'm going to say that one of the following is true:

A. the MA-100s that we bought are faulty

or

B. our cameras need to be repaired.

You have the original XL1 right, not the XL1s?

First report I recall reading on squeal that was not associated with an obvious feedback loop. (Could even be head phone coupling to the stock mic.)

Which model AT mic?

I usually use the MA-100 connected to the Audio1 input jacks.
MA-100 power cord to the 5 v jack on the back.
Audio1 input jack selected.
Usually manual audio control, but that will depend on the material being recorded.
Audio 1 sensitivity set to MIC or MIC ATT depending on the mic sensitivity adn material being recorded.

Note that the MA-100 is not intended for line level inputs, it will clip.
and it does not provide phantom power.

Also, some folks have had problems with the RCA connectors on the MA-100 becoming disconnected in side, probably due to puling on the cable rather than the plugs' body. A partial disconnect might produce unexpected results.

It's the AT897. I thought for a second that it is was the phatom power issue, but then I realized that I just put in a new battery in the mic. Besides, the squeal exists without anything hooked up to the MA-100. If I take out the left RCA, the right one still squeals, so it's definitely coming from the MA-100. If I take out the DC plug, it goes silent. I know the DC adapter works fine because in doing all these tests it sure ate through the battery on my XL1.

I'm starting to think that it's got to be a faulty MA-100. I think I should send it back to B&H, but I don't want to waste their or my time in doing so if I'm just doing something wrong.

What you are suggesting is an acoustic feedback loop, where the mic is picking up sound from the headphone. That is very possible. While cardioid have high rejection of sound from the rear, around 20 dB at 1000 Hz), line-gradient, hyper- and super-cardioid mics, which are typical shotgun mic patterns, have much less rejection of sound from the rear of the mic (maybe 10 dB at 1000 Hz) where typically the right ear head phone sits). Having the head phone level high and having the mic gain turned high could have allowed a feedback loop.

Don, let me know if this sounds like it's possible. I've been trying to find former posts about a similar problem and there's one from 2001 that you were actually contributing to.

The original post was this:

"Peter Sheppard
October 10th, 2001, 12:49 PM
I have been using the xl1 for over two years and am very happy with it except for one or two minor things that seemto have been fixed in the xl1s....However, I have found that when using external wired mikes with the canon XLR adapter, I get a whining ,high pitched sound that destroys a clean recording...this takes place only on battery power, not on AC, and only with the bigger batteries... The problem does not occur with the smallest canon batteries either... has anyone else had a similar problem. and if so , found a fix?"

I was using the biggest battery I had. I'm charging a smaller one now.

Now the big question:

I think it actually might have something to do with using non-Canon brand substitution batteries. Is that possible?

I have a dual charger/holder and when all my batteries are charges I'm going to try and the the XL1 from that and see if it helps. Unfortunately that might take a while. I'll keep you posted.

And if you disconnect the right lead from the MA-100 with the right connected, does the left channel still squeal?

And i assume this is with nothing connected to the MA-100 inputs?

And no squeal if the MA100 is disconnected from the camcorder?

How are you powering the camcorder? You mention both a DC adapter and a battery, but not the AC adapter? Does battery or AC adapter make a difference?

Is the squeal steady or varying, and any idea what frequency the squeal is?

I presume you are monitoring the squeal with headphones. Is it still there (recorded to tape) if you disconnect the headphones?

One by one:

Yes, if I disconnect the right with the left still squeals.

Yes nothing was connected to the MA-100.

Correct, no squeal if I disconnect MA-100.

I don't have an AC adapter. I was powering it with a BP-945 "FOR CANON" (it's a generic brand). By DC adapter I meant the MA-100's adapter.

The squeal is steady. I don't know what frequency it is.

I was monitoring it with headphones, but I was also running my camera straight to my laptop and monitoring with quicktime pro.

Can you record other sources connected directly to the Audio1 inputs without squeal?

Can you try it with a different battery? Do you still get the squeal?

If so, and if the squeal records to tape with head phones disconnected, you may well have a defective MA-100. Quite possibly an internal short between the input and output. The MA-100 contains active circuits that provide about 6 db gain per channel, so it could go into oscillation on its own.

If you have some technician skills, you could test the MA-100 off the camcorder by connecting a +5 volt DC source to the tip of the power lead, and DC ground to the shield (NOT the tip) of one of the RCA plugs, and look for a signal at the RCA outputs.

Update:

I've tried three different batteries, and yes other things input fine into the audio 1. Something I just noticed as I was messing around with it. If I let it power down completely, then power it back up, through monitoring and testing I discovered that at first the sound is fine, then the squeal occurs and builds upon itself until it's steady. This sound like an oscillation to me. I'm sending it back to B&H asap. Thanks for the help. I'll post a follow up when I receive a new MA-100.

Builds up over time - hmmmm, sounds like defective component in the MA100, possibly a bad capacitor or open circuit trace.

Sending it back sounds like the right thing to do.

Don,

If issued an exchange for the MA-100 through B&H, but if that doesn't work and it's my cameras DC socket that's the problem, do you know of any other comparable substitutes for the MA-100. I was looking at the Beachtek DXA-4P or the Beachtek DXA-6 with phantom power. I'm skeptical, however as to how long the DXA-6 lasts with just a 9volt battery. Are there any other decent adapters? Hopefully the new MA-100 works just fine.

The common XLR adapters include models from Beachtek (http://www.beachtek.com), Sign Video (http://www.signvideo.com), and Studio 1 Productions (http://www.studio1productions.com). Each has advantages and disadvantages, and you can probably find users more than willing to share their opinions about them here and in other forums. One possible issue as you evaluate them is cable dress/management and control positions. Will they be convenient and/or in the way for what you are doing.

But I've not used them (can't speak to battery life) - I've been quite satisfied with the MA-100. And it provides the nice shoulder mount and accessory mounting platform to boot which none of the others have. But if doing 4-channel sound, a second adapter is nice to have.

Still no solution
 

I received the replacement MA100, but the problem remained. Still a high-pitched hiss/squeal. It sounds like someone blew up a balloon and is squeezing the tip to slowly let the air out. I'm sending the replacement back to BH today.

I think I'm going to go with either a Beachtek DXA-6 or a DXA-4P. My big questions now is "how important to me would it be to buy an adapter with phantom power?" My microphone can be powered by a battery and as far as I know Beachtek has a decent preamp, so why would I need phantom power?

Is it just because in the future I may find myself with a battery that requires phantom power... and then I'll wish I spent the extra $70?

Is there another advantage to phantom power that I am over looking?

The primary advantage to phantom power is the wider selection of microphones. A second potential advantage is that some microphones have somewhat better output characteristics with phantom power than with battery power; e.g., a wider dynamic range, lower output impedance, or higher sound pressure levels for same level of distortion. But you will have to read the mic specs carefully to see if it applies to the mic you are considering.

Only you can answer whether or not it is a worthwhile benefit to you.

How to replace phantom power plug on MA-100
 

It appears that the phantom power plug for my MA-100 is shot. Wiggle that puppy up at the flexible part right by the plug and the mic goes on and off. But I can't find a replacement plug anywhere. Tried Fry's, Radio Shack, etc, Any suggestions where to get a new plug? I tried a search in the threads and came up empty. Need this solved ASAP as I have a shoot this weekend! Argh!

Jim

Just for clarification, that's not phantom power for the mic, it's dc power for the mic pre-amps in the MA-100.

Nevertheless, you might have to go with a more robust electronics store. We have a couple like that in Dallas with a lot more variety than the typical RS.

Look to see if Arrow Electronics or Allied Electronics might have what you need and a location that's local to you.

-gb-

Thanks, Greg.
Any idea how I describe this thing over the phone? Like "It's a 1/8th inch whosieewhatsie blah blah blah?" Everyone keeps trying to sell me a mono or stereo mini audio plug to replace it and I hold it up side by side and you can clearly see the difference.

Jim

Hi Jim.
 

What is the difference? (I ask as I've never seen a MA100 or associated connectors). Any chance of a piccie?


CS

Sorry Jim, I know it's smaller than the standard 1/8 (or 3mm) mini-phone jack. There is a slightly smaller size plug which IIRC is a 3/32 phone plug. I believe that's the size of the LANC connector (same size as many cell phone head sets). I haven't had my XL-1 for awhile so I can't check it out. I looked in my old Owner's manual and it doesn't say what size either.

-gb-

It is a 2.5 mm sub-mini mono phone plug. (aka 3/32" mono phone plug).

Some Radio Shack stores do carry them: part #274-290

That's a little vague, Don. Could you be a tad more specific? LOL! Thanks! The only way you could have been more helpful is to have knocked on my door, part in hand!

Jim