CS5.5 Compatable??

[Jay West]

Just saw Davdi's post after I submitted this.

Answer to previous question is yes and no.

Yes, Neo is compatible with CS 5.5.

No, we do not seem able to use Cineform sequence presets. I cannot use them with CS 5, either. On my system, Cineform files are fine. First Light also seems to link without problem, as well. I can edit Ceinform files in almost any kind of sequence I choose, although I generally use a Matrox 1920x1080i setting because I have an MXO2 Mini for external display. But, if I use Cineform 2d timeline presets, the program crashes. This occurs whether or not I've selected Cineform as the playback device in Preferences and even if I have uninstalled the Matrox software and hardware. There are a couple of other threads going on the subject. Personally, with hardware MPE, I see no need to use the Cineform 2d sequence presets in CS 5 or 5.5. Otherwise, Neo works as well as eve for me.

[Julian Frost]

David,

I sent a trouble ticket to support detailing the problems I'm having with CS 5.5 and CF AVI files in a nested sequence, for multi-camera use. Plain and simple, it doesn't work!

I sent in a VERY detailed message, and the VERY terse answer I got back from support said, simply, that it was Adobe's problem.

In a nutshell, when I use CF AVI files, nest them in a "DSLR 1080p" sequence, enable multi-camera mode on the new sequence, and show the multi-camera window, all I get is a green screen. I can click on where the individual cameras are supposed to be, and PPro CS 5.5 records the edits, but since the screen is completely green, I can't see what I'm editing! See attached image, showing the problem (with 3 cameras included in the nested multi-camera sequence).

I was told to set the sequences' editing mode "Desktop", but that's not an option in CS 5.5. So, instead, I was told to use "Custom". I've tried that, and I get the same results.

When I take Cineform products out of the workflow entirely, and just use Canon 5D mk II native MOV files, everything works fine.

How is this an Adobe problem when it works fine WITHOUT Cineform, and does not work WITH Cineform?

I upgraded my computer ($2,500), my operating system ($200), Neo ($500) and my NLE, JUST to get Cineform to work for me! I was told, when I first chose Cineform, that it was fully compatible with Adobe CS3, but it wasn't. I was told it was fully compatible with Adobe CS 5.5, but it isn't.

Am I wasting my time with Cineform? According to Cineform Technical Support, it appears I am... everything is "an Adobe issue. They are aware of it, and have told us they do not intend to fix it."

Just FYI, this is on a Clean installation of Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, and a Clean installation of Adobe Production Premium CS 5.5, and the latest build of Neo.

[Jay West]

Julian:

I agree that the CF timeline and playback presets do not work, but can you tell me why you need to use them? My experiments with them have been academic exercise that confirms they do not work, but I am not understanding the reasons somebody would need them under current versions of CS5 and 5.5.

It used to be the case that one needed to choose CF as the playback device to get real-time playback of effects with Cineform conversion files, but MPE does that now without any need to use Cineform presents. I've found I can drop pretty much any format into any kind of timeline and get real-time playback with everything including multi-cam except when I try a cinfeform timeline preset &/or use CF as the playback device. Is your experience different?

Do your Cineform conversions not play when placed in a DLSR 1080p timeline? Are you working with 3d footage? Are you supposed to get 10bit color playback to a Dreamcolor or Eizo monitor?


Again, I am having no trouble whatever using Cineform files in Adobe projects except when I try to use Cineform presets and I see no benefit to using CF presets when editing Cineform files in PPro multi-cam projects.

[Julian Frost]

Jay,

I've tried everything!

The JPG from my previous post was from a project created using the DSLR 1080P 24fps preset (provided by Adobe). The sequence holding the clips from the 3 cameras was an Adobe DSLR 1080P 24fps preset, with the editing mode set to "Custom", per the directions given to me by Cineform's Technical Support, as was the Multi-Cam sequence.

The ONLY thing "Cineform", were the 24fps CF AVI clips themselves. The player is set to the Adobe Player.

If I use the exact same project, delete the CF AVI files and replace them with the 5D mk II native MOV files, everything works perfectly. As soon as I introduce ANYTHING Cineform, I get problems. This is plain Jane 2D clips... no transitions, no edits, just raw CF AVI footage placed on separate tracks on a timeline, nested, and mult-cam enabled.

CF AVI files play fine on their own, but become a little choppy when transitions are introduced. This is on an i7-970, with 24 GB RAM, nVidia GTX 570 GPU, and a 10,000 rpm drive.

[David Newman]

Multi-cam should work and I have confirmed it works here. The nested-sequence issue is easy to handle in all but 3D projects, it is a error in the interface between the Adobe API and CineForm plugins, Adobe provided the sample code that has the nesting bug, while support was technically correct, it is acknowledged that it is up to CineForm address (the new support person didn't know this subtly.) All is solved using a custom preset, we need to generate new presents so this is automatic. Something we are working on now.

If something support has suggested doesn't work for you, please follow up with support, as they can do a remote session to that step was missed (in their instructions most likely.)

[Julian Frost]

David,

I appreciate the feedback, but these are the instructions I received from support (before they closed the ticket as "Solved", when it was far from solved):

Begin Quote:
"My mistake in my FIRST response was to tell you 'desktop' mode. Apparently the terminology has changed in 5.5.

FROM MY SECOND EMAIL: You can start with one of the CineForm sequences, then go into Editing Mode and select 'Custom'

Apparently it's no longer called 'Desktop'.
End Quote

Not much to miss in those instructions!

As I've said... it doesn't work here, on a clean Windows installation and a clean Adobe Production Premium CS 5.5 installation, and the latest build of Neo (downloaded 10 minutes ago).

[David Newman]

As it is working here, and Jay (above) also, we have to determine why it is not working for you.

Please:

"If something support has suggested doesn't work for you, please follow up with support, as they can do a remote session to see what step was missed (in their instructions most likely.)"

[Julian Frost]

David,

I have re-opened the ticket that support closed as "Solved".

[Julian Frost]

Just got done with a remote session with Jake from Cineform.

It appears that there's an issue with the Mercury Playback Engine GPU Acceleration in Premier Pro CS 5.5. When it is changed to "Mercury Playback Engine Software Only", I'm able to do multi-camera edits normally (using "Custom" as the Editing Mode on the source and multi-camera sequences).

I wonder if this is only a problem with the nVidia GTX 570?

Anyway, thanks to Jake, it appears I have a workaround (switch the MPE to software while doing multi-camera edits).

[Jay West]

Thanks for that information.

I'm, too, am curious if the problem is limited to the GTX570 and/or DSLR footage (and maybe 24p). I'm out of the office today and do not have 5.5 installed on my laptop, so I'll have to wait til later to try checking this out on my computer. I have a different graphics card (a GTX260 on an I7/950 system) and do not have any DSLR footage, but I do have a current multi-cam project with Cineform AVIs which I will try with DSLR 24fps sequence presets. If I do not get the problem, that will suggest that the problem may be specific to hardware MPE with the GTX570. (But, of course, I would need actual DSLR footage to fully confirm that. Maybe Cineform will have checked this before I get around to it.) If I do get the problem and it goes away when I switch to a non-DSLR sequence, that will be interesting.

[Jay West]

I've had time to run some tests on my system. I found I could replicate Julian's issues if I created sequences where I selected "editing modes" of "Cineform RT" and "Custom" but otherwise had no problems as long as I used Cineform files with other CS5.5 presets and "editing modes."

Given how well Cineform files work in CS 5.5, I can see no reason to use the problem modes. You absolutely do not need them to edit with Cineform conversions in CS 5 or 5.5. Maybe I've missed something? Can somebody can tell me what is the perceived benefit of using CFRT or custom modes when you do not need them to use Cineform conversions?

For anybody who wants to know how and what I tested, here are details.

My tests were run with CS 5.5 (ver. 5.5.0) under Win 7 Pro running on an I7-950 CPU in an ASUS P6T-D v2 mobo with 12 gb RAM, a GTX 260 (using the nVidia 275.33 drivers), Cineform Neo (551b133), media files on a gSpeed 4 tb Raid 10 (Rocket Raid PCIe card) with renders to a 2tb internal RAID 0. All tests were with hardware MPE enabled.

Since I do not have any actual DSLR footage, I synthesized some by bringing 5 clips of 1080i AVCHD into a DSLR 108024p sequence and exporting each of them as Cineform 24p. I then imported those files into my project.

In all tests, I had PPro CS 5.5 set on "Adobe Player" (In Edit -->Preferences--> Player Settings). On my system, the other choices are Matrox and CFRT Player. I normally use the Matrox player because I have an MXO2 Mini and run a three-screen editing set-up. This time, I used Adobe Player and did not use the Matrox unit or the thrid screen. Selecting "CFRT Player" invariably crashes my system. Since I don't need to use the CFRT player to use Cineform AVI conversions, and since I do not understand what the CFRT player would give me that I do not already have with hardware MPE, I do not see this as a problem. (Again, what am I missing here; what are the possible benefits of using CFRT as the player?)

For "playback settings" --- which are accessed under "Sequence Settings" as well as the properties buttons in the upper right corners of the monitor windows --- I had "Desktop video during playback" checked and selected my secondary 1920x1080 monitor for the timeline playback window. I had playback resolution set to "full" and "play both fields" selected. (I should think the fields choice would not matter for progressive timelines and footage, though.)

I then created a DSLR sequence (which you do by clicking "File-->New-->Sequence" or by pressing "Cntrl-N"). Under the "Preset" tab, I selected DSLR1080p24 as the preset. The second tab in the sequence box is "settings" whose first line is a drop-down box for "editing mode." I accepted the default "DSLR" as the editing mode and okayed the new sequence. In the new sequence, I stacked four tracks of Cineform 24p conversions and synched (Clip--->Sync--->Clip Start). Next, I created a new DSLR 1080/24p sequence using the same settings (DSLR 108024p as the preset and DSLR as the editing mode), I nested my synched four-track DSLR sequence, then enabled multi-cam (Clip---.Multi-Cam---> Enable), and fired up a multi-pane multi-cam window (Window ---> Multi-cam) which I positioned over top of the the source monitor window and part of the Project Bin display. I brought in a fifth 24p Cineform track and laid it above the multi-cam on track 2. (This mirrors the 5 camera multi-cam edit where I have been using the Cineform 1080i files.)

Note that I had 5 tracks of 24p Cineform files. Everything is a Cineform file.

I was able to edit without problem and only had to deal with some jerky playback of the 24p footage. Some of the jerkiness seemed to go away after I rendered the timeline, so some of it was likely motion judder. The footage is from a dance recital with a lot of high motion, high contrast footage under stage lighting with spotlights.

I then tried to repeat this with new sequence settings. If I went to create a new sequence, and, this time, I selected a Cineform 1080p24 preset under the preset sequences tab. PPro crashed as soon as I tried to put anything on the timeline. (It did this under CS 5, too.) It also did this if I selected "Custom" of "Cineform RT" as the editing mode. PPro would crash as soon as I put anything on a timeline with either "Custom" or "Cineform . Other "editing modes" were fine.

I did not try this with software MPE.

What this tells me is that that 24p Cineform files seem to work as well under CS 5.5 as they did under CS 5 as long as you do not go into the New Sequence "Settings" tab and select either "Custom" or "Cineform RT" as your editing mode and as long as you do not use a Cineform sequence preset.

There is no apparent problem with using Cineform conversions of DSLR 24p files as long as you use other presets and editing modes. And, you still get the benefits of hardware MPE.

So, going back to Julian's original question, a lot of us use Cineform files but we just do not use Cineform sequence presets or editing modes any more. Again, I have to ask: why use Cineform RT playback or sequence settings or editing modes when you do not need them and you can use Cineform conversions in CS 5 and 5.5 and get the benefits of hardware MPE?

[Julian Frost]

Thanks Jay for doing that test.

I replicated your tests on my system...

I created the project using an Adobe DSLR 24fps 1080p preset.
I created 2 sequences, using the Adobe DSLR preset.
I made sure Premier was using the Adobe Player as the player setting.
I loaded 3 CF AVI clips into "Sequence 01".
I nested Sequence 01 into the second sequence, "Sequence 02 - MultiCam".
I enabled Multi-Camera on "Sequence 02 - MultiCam".
I opened the Multi-Camera Window...

...And got the "totally green screen" in the multi-camera window as soon as I opened it, just as before.

If I turned off the MPE Hardware Acceleration, everything works normally.

[Jay West]

Sounds like an attack of gremlins.

When you created your sequences this time, did you check the "Settings" tab (the second tab) in the sequence set-up windows? On my new CS 5.5 system, the system defaults to something related to what I chose on the first tab, but you might check just to be sure that something is not getting goofy there.

And here's something new. I just reopened the test project and I've got green screens, too. In the lower right corner of the Adobe Window, its has the little blue progress bar and CS 5.5 says it is establishing peak files (conforming) the audio. Again. When it gets done with that, the video comes back. Seems to be reconforming everytime I open the project. I'm filing a trouble report with Cineform on this.

[Julian Frost]

Jay,

Yes, I went to the second tab when I created each sequence and double-checked the settings there.

The settings are as expected:

Editing Mode: DSLR
Timebase: 23.976
Frame Size: 1920 x 1080
etc etc.

Oh, and yes, Premier conforms the clips again every time I open the project!

[Jay West]

On the re-conforming issue in CS 5.5, Cineform's Jake Seagraves swatted that bug for me with this solution:

In Premiere's menus, go to 'Edit\Preferences\Media' and uncheck the option to "write xmp id to files on import"

I can now open and close PPro CS5.5 as needed. (Something I wind up doing, for example, while putting a DVD together in Encore --- when you spot pesky little mis-spellings in titles, a forgotten fade up in a chapter, etc.) With that bug swatted, I am back to having no trouble with multi-cam edits in CS 5.5. Hopefully, they will quickly find a solution for the apparent conflict on Julian's system between hardware MPE with a GTX570 and multi-cam monitoring.