1080i -> SD MPEG2 in PPro v2

Paul Kepen · May 30th, 2006, 10:51 PM

I have some captured frames, but I don't have a web page to post to, just e-mail. Is there an e-mail I can send them to you at? If not, I'll just do the CF ticket. Maybe they should look that way cause there being played progressive on the computer, but my sd DV footage never did!
Sorry to be such a neophyte, I just didn't expect it to be hard to downrez hdv to dvd - most posters seem to get great results starting out with such a higher res/color original. Thanks for al your time and effort - PK

David Newman · May 31st, 2006, 09:09 AM

I didn't believe it is hard to downres to DVD, as that is what most of our customers do (as I have done myself many times.) However there are steps where mistakes can be made in software or in user operation, we're just trying to determine in your case which it is. You can post a frame here as an attachment, otherwise use the ticket system (and they will ask for frames.)

Alan Mills · May 31st, 2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

Yes, this means your source is good. So now you need to work out where in the processing chain the fields get munged. Export this clip from Premiere as 720x480 16x9 (1.2 pixel aspect, bottom field first) and load that new SD clip in VirtualDub to confirm the interlacing is still there.

Done this export. But those settings aren't for me. This is a PAL project.
My settings I used are 720x576 upper field, which are the default as they appeared formy PAL project. You can see the settings here
http://www.alandmills.co.uk/PALsettings.jpg so I hope they are ok. Let me know if this is significant

This results in the following export. http://www.alandmills.co.uk/SD_Export.jpg which looks interlaced to me. Curiously the export I cut the current copy of the DVD from looks similar at http://www.alandmills.co.uk/SD_export_orig.jpg so I guess the issue is my settings in Encore v2?

Not sure if this might be important but a frame grab of a previously exported AVI that encodes and plays back fine on the same disk (it's a compilation)does not look interlaced at all. See it here at http://www.alandmills.co.uk/SD_Export_Works.jpg

The settings used in Encore v2 are as follows.
http://www.alandmills.co.uk/Encore_Settings.jpg which is just using one of the standard PAL presets.

Richard Leadbetter · May 31st, 2006, 12:15 PM

Alan,

Are you expecting to see no interlacing at all? The PAL format is inherently interlaced so the down conversion actually looks pretty decent to me - though it's difficult to tell without seeing any motion. Interlacing might look naff on a PC monitor, but it creates far smoother motion on a TV.

With regards your SD export 'works' clip, is this actually from a similar 1080i source? It looks to me like interlacing has been foresaken for frame-blending - this might look decent enough on a PC monitor but it'll look poor compared to normal interlacing on a TV screen.

The initial issue you have might even be the deinterlacing technique PowerDVD uses rather than a problem with the clip itself per se.

David Newman · May 31st, 2006, 12:30 PM

Definitely appears to be happening in Encore DVD given those sources are correctly interlaced. In you DVD settings you have lower field first set (is that correct?)

Alan Mills · June 1st, 2006, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

Alan,

Are you expecting to see no interlacing at all? The PAL format is inherently interlaced so the down conversion actually looks pretty decent to me - though it's difficult to tell without seeing any motion. Interlacing might look naff on a PC monitor, but it creates far smoother motion on a TV.

With regards your SD export 'works' clip, is this actually from a similar 1080i source? It looks to me like interlacing has been foresaken for frame-blending - this might look decent enough on a PC monitor but it'll look poor compared to normal interlacing on a TV screen.

The initial issue you have might even be the deinterlacing technique PowerDVD uses rather than a problem with the clip itself per se.

Richard, thanks for the response.

TBH, I WAS expecting to see no interlacing and was surprised to see it because that would have, to me, explained the problem. The curious thing here is that the interlaced exports when transcoded in Encore using the settings shown plays poorly (all juddery) on a CRT TV and the example that does not look interlaced plays fine, which is the opposite to what I would have expected. I only use PowerDVD to take the screen shot I mentioned earlier.

This particular DVD project is an amalgamation of a handfull of little 'shorts' I've made over the last few years and it's quite possible that I've unwittingly used different export/encoding options on different projects. It is only my latest little project that does not play properly though and curiously this was editted earlier this year in PPro1.5.1 using AspectHD3.x. It was initially only going to be shown on the net but now I've upgraded to Ppro2 and AspectHD4 I'm trying to open the project to get an MPEG2 export out of it and am seeing these results.

Curiously though, this particular project does hang Ppro2 for a few minutes (turning the entire Widnow white while in the process) each time it is opened so I'm putting this one down to the foible of upgrading whilst in the middle of an ongoing project. So, although the project opens it's never felt 'cean' since I upgraded. Maybe I should create a new project in PPro2 and import the previous one. Maybe it'll clean things up a bit.

But either way, I guess we've shown, thanks to eveyone's advice here that the issue is not one of Cineform's or the PPro workflow.

I'll persevere and see if I can't get it sorted.

Richard Leadbetter · June 1st, 2006, 02:44 AM

Alan, it looks to me like the field order is wrong if you are getting juddery playback from an interlaced source, so it seems to me that David's reply should sort the problem - you're exporting upper-field first from within Premiere, but you have the lower-field first in your Encore settings. Somewhere along the line the fields are therefore being played back in the wrong order.

You won't see a problem with your 'working' clip despite this clash because it is not interlaced.

All being well, just changing your Encore setting should fix it?

May 30th, 2006, 10:51 PM	#31
Paul Kepen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis Minnesota Posts: 347	Captured frames I have some captured frames, but I don't have a web page to post to, just e-mail. Is there an e-mail I can send them to you at? If not, I'll just do the CF ticket. Maybe they should look that way cause there being played progressive on the computer, but my sd DV footage never did! Sorry to be such a neophyte, I just didn't expect it to be hard to downrez hdv to dvd - most posters seem to get great results starting out with such a higher res/color original. Thanks for al your time and effort - PK

May 31st, 2006, 09:09 AM	#32
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I didn't believe it is hard to downres to DVD, as that is what most of our customers do (as I have done myself many times.) However there are steps where mistakes can be made in software or in user operation, we're just trying to determine in your case which it is. You can post a frame here as an attachment, otherwise use the ticket system (and they will ask for frames.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 31st, 2006, 12:15 PM	#34
Richard Leadbetter Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 323	Alan, Are you expecting to see no interlacing at all? The PAL format is inherently interlaced so the down conversion actually looks pretty decent to me - though it's difficult to tell without seeing any motion. Interlacing might look naff on a PC monitor, but it creates far smoother motion on a TV. With regards your SD export 'works' clip, is this actually from a similar 1080i source? It looks to me like interlacing has been foresaken for frame-blending - this might look decent enough on a PC monitor but it'll look poor compared to normal interlacing on a TV screen. The initial issue you have might even be the deinterlacing technique PowerDVD uses rather than a problem with the clip itself per se. __________________ Company Website: Digital Foundry Ltd Video Games HD Blog: Digital Foundry@Eurogamer

May 31st, 2006, 12:30 PM	#35
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Definitely appears to be happening in Encore DVD given those sources are correctly interlaced. In you DVD settings you have lower field first set (is that correct?) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 1st, 2006, 02:44 AM	#37
Richard Leadbetter Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 323	Alan, it looks to me like the field order is wrong if you are getting juddery playback from an interlaced source, so it seems to me that David's reply should sort the problem - you're exporting upper-field first from within Premiere, but you have the lower-field first in your Encore settings. Somewhere along the line the fields are therefore being played back in the wrong order. You won't see a problem with your 'working' clip despite this clash because it is not interlaced. All being well, just changing your Encore setting should fix it?