DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Hello.
When the Odyssey came out - in many publications and many websites the option for recording DNxHD
was mentioned.
As of the last firmware update there is still no DNxHD recording option.
Besides it being a very good and efficient format, there is another reason why I think
many people like myself are waiting for this option.
I am shooting many interviews with DSLR's. as you know, most DSLR's break long recordings into multiple files. sometimes it's not an issue, but with interviews with two cameras (or more) it makes syncing the footage later much more labor intensive.
Shooting interviews with ProRes HQ in a bitrate of 220 Mb/s is a huge overkill - and results in massive data volumes.
Using codecs like ProRes LT or DNxHD 120 (which are almost like the native 95 Mb/s of the Canon 5D Mark III) seems more logical for these kind of projects.

Any word from Convergent Design regarding the incorporation of these "lighter" codecs???

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Arbel,

We also want to offer the other, lower bit-rate options for the Apple ProRes 422 HQ codec.

And we want to offer DNxHD.

As you are most likely aware, we finished our 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ project, which took a lot of our engineer's time.

I am sorry, but I can't, at this time, provide you with a date when these two project will be finished.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Mid-Late 2015.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Thanks for the reply.

I'll keep updating.

P.S - I just saw that the Odyssey 7q+ came out.
couldn't tell the exact features it has that the 7q doesn't.
can someone elaborate on this?

Re: New Features in Odyssey7Q+
 

Dear Arbel,

The Odyssey7Q+ adds the ability to accept up to 1080p60 over HDMI,
whereas the Odyssey7Q supports up to 1080p30 over HDMI.

More importantly, the Odyssey7Q+ adds:

1. The ability to accept 4K (4096 x 2160) up to 24 frame per second (fps) over HDMI.

And

2. The ability to accept Ultra-HD/Quad HD (3840 x 2160) up to 30 fps over HDMI.

Please note that the Odyssey7Q fully supports HD, Ultra-HD, and 4K via SDI.

Until recently HDMI Receiver Chips that were designed to support 4K and UHD were not available.

And these new chips were not drop-in replacements for the HD HDMI receiver chips, so that a new board design was necessary.

Please note that we kept the two designs to be as similar as possible.

We will continue to fully support the Odyssey7, the Odyssey7Q and the Odyssey7Q+, with one code base.

We fully expect to release new firmware features at the same time, as we have done with every release so far for the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

I just wish the Odyssey 7Q could record high frame rate RAW files in a format that can be natively imported into Final Cut Pro X. Right now it is a total bag of hurt.

Additionally, the clip merger program is not Mac user friendly at all.

BUT, I always enjoy the excellent support from Dan and CD, and always look forward to the next functionality addition.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Dave,

Final Cut Pro X does not natively support Raw files at this time.

The most recent version of Adobe Creative Cloud does support Raw files natively.

If you are using Final Cut Pro X, then the solution is to use Blackmagic Design Resolve Lite, or the full version.

With Resolve Lite, you can accept Raw files, including 2K, Ultra-HD (3840 x 2160) and 4K (4096 x 2160) files and render to video (not Raw) in HD, 2K, UHD, but rendering to 4K (4096 x 2160) is not supported in this free version.

The full (purchased) version of Resolve does support rendering to 4K.

-----------------------


It does take some time, or a mentor, or studying on-line to start using Resolve properly.

For the FS700/FS7 and the C500, for 4K or UHD, in frame rates up to 30 fps, you can record directly to Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), which eliminates the necessity of working in Raw.

(Please note that working in Raw, for some applications is the best and proper solution, and avoiding Raw, recording to Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) is great for others applications.)

For recording in 2K, the Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+, provide support for up to 60 fps in Apple ProRes 422 (HQ).

I hope this helps.


Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

It's now February 2016 and no DNxHD nor DNxHR. I'll give the benefit of the doubt before I consider this another "to be implemented" feature like HDMI TC trigger on the Nanoflash.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Jack,

I will attempt to get an update on when we expect to release DNxHD.

We have been working on this a long time. My preliminary answer is that we have to finish the "wrapper" for the DNxHD encoded images.

And we also have to create a program like our CD Apple ProRes Transfer Utility.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Is the difficulty in making a MXF file and choosing (or offering) flavors of MXF Atom or MXF OP1a?

Is it easier to offer a QuickTime wrapper at first and offering MXF down the line?

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Jack,

It is quicker for us to initial offer DNxHD in a ".MOV" wrapper.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Well, everyone's heard the news that Quicktime for Windows is now EOL.

I understand the difficulty to write MXF-OP1a, but what about just focusing on OP-Atom? The streams are separate files and would make Avid workflows way more efficient by only grabbing the audio channels you really need.

Blackmagic uses OP-Atom in their Hyperdeck recorders as of current.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

is anyone out there really aware of just how many people are editing .MOV including all the the ProRes and DNxHD flavors on Windows that require Quicktime?

As Jack mentions with the demise of QuickTime support on Windows I pretty sure anything I edit that is not native XAVC will now be converted to VP5 (Cineform.avi) using FootageStudio4K. Surely this Windows QuickTime EOL must concern the likes of CD, Atomos and Video Devices etc, etc who having been making recorders that are primarily ProRes devices?

The reason I ask this is that the plans I had for the purchase of an Odyssey have now gone right to the back burner. Or am I missing something? Maybe Dan can throw more light on the subject. Dan what's your viewpoint going forward on the news of QuickTime's EOL on Windows? Another question for Dan. Now that Cineform is a SMPTE ratified format (VP5) would CD ever consider offering Cineform as an option?

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Keep in mind in Premiere/Media Encoder CC 2015 the only native export of "GoPro Cineform" is in Quicktime...

And the entirety of the company is now owned by GoPro, so don't trust the official tools to be in the professionals' best interest. You can only trust native NLE hooks.

DNxHD and DNxHR seem to be the best path to go down moving forward for pure cross-platform forwards compatibility. Only Sony Vegas and Catalyst Edit seem to be left out for DNxHD production-ready reliability.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Cineform / GoPro say to keep asking Adobe for Cineform.avi. Earlier versions of Premiere had .avi. Whether this will ever happen who knows.
If you have Cineform.mov and you want .avi just re-wrap them through 'Another GUI.' Quick fast and painless batch conversion.

Further to QT on Windows. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has the future in mind when it comes to ProRes recorders and cameras. QUOTE:

"Conclusion

The seemingly small step for Apple to discontinue Quicktime for Windows could turn out to be a significant leap for the camera and filmmaking industry. Hopefully, the manufacturers will come up with—and provide—some solutions quickly. Red is a good example that others should, and will hopefully, follow.

For now, make sure to run an anti-virus scan on your Windows machine and think twice when handling Quicktime movies on Windows machines!"

https://www.cinema5d.com/end-of-life...out-to-vanish/

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

The time is now for the recorder companies to transition away from ProRes and .MOV. With MOV being a security risk on Windows, it's no longer as cross-platform as it was before. The dated 32bit hooks for Quicktime just won't cut it anymore.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

What he said plus the gama shift errors that Apple refused to address will die with quicktime. About damn time too..

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Interesting that there is a deafening silence from Convergent Design. Dan Keaton is usually quick to respond.

Dan if you are following these posts what is CD's point of view on this lack of support for .MOV on Windows going forward? Virtually everyone I know shooting with ProRes on CD and Atomos products are on Windows. Some on Apple but not as many as back in the days of FCP. Still offer ProRes but add Cineform or Sony XAVC MXF as option so we are not dependent on an OS system manufacturer who's main stock in trade these days is iProducts. You did very well back in the days you worked with Sony on the MPEG2 MXF codec with the NanoFlash. You can do it again I'm sure.

I for one won't be buying any more ProRes recording products.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

At NAB this year I told every monitor/recorder manufacturer I talked to (I.e. Atomos, Convergent, Videodevices) that they needed to implement DNxHR in MXF ASAP, and that it would cause all the Windows users to switch to them. Some of the people I talked to poo-pooed the notion that there was any significant amount of Windows users to make much of a dent in their bottom line, so I was talking to Adobe about Win vs Mac Creative Cloud installs, and they felt like it was nearly 50/50.

I am on Mac, but I sympathize with the issues because I was on Windows for quite a long time.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Thing is, wavelet codecs (which is what ProRes and DNxHD/DNxHR are) run really efficiently on FPGAs, which is what CD uses a ton of. Sony's H.264 based codecs require dedicated encoder chips, which require more R&D.

Wavelet is the way forward, but not with ProRes. DNxHR is the way forward. Cineform is also owned by GoPro, so once again, they don't have any interest in further advancing that codec, same with Apple.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Chris,

For the past few days, I have been driving from Los Angeles to South Carolina.

We are taking the problem with Apple dropping support for QuickTime Player for Windows very seriously.

We have been developing Avid DNxHD for quite some time. We can record and playback Avid DNxHD in Odyssey's in our lab.

This code is being integrated with our regular firmware.

There are two possible "wrappers" for Avid DNxHD; a Quicktime Wrapper and a MXF wrapper.

We will provide more information on the "Wrapper" or "Wrappers" in the future.


We intended to release our support for Avid DNxHD as soon as possible.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dan,

Will you offer DNxHR as well? That will be required to record in 4k. DNxHD doesn't support 4k.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Thanks for the heads up Dan and no thanks Apple. Man that's a long drive! That's like Sydney to Broome over here. For us that's about 4,500 Klms. Must be about the same for you. Be safe, get plenty of rest on those long stretches.

The old NanoFlash MPEG-2 MXF wrapper is still alive and well today so fingers crossed you go for MXF again. Especially with the Material Exchange Format being adopted by so many in the industry, especially the broadcast industry. For those interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_Exchange_Format

The sooner we get away from proprietary wrappers owned by the likes of Apple, Google, Microsoft etc. the better off all of us will be. Chris M. makes a good point on DNxHR as obviously demand for 4K/QFHD is becoming paramount these days. Look forward to more news down the road.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Actually, Google's WebM is a fork of Matroska. That's all open source.

However, Matroska as a container for professional use is likely never going to be adopted cause it's clearly been linked to piracy.

We need to avoid AVI and MOV moving forward. MXF is the only cross platform format going forward.

OP1a is going to put a lot of I/O and computational stress on the FPGAs, since the output has to be muxed into a single file. OP-Atom writes separate files for each stream, so it doesn't need muxing. My testing on a 5400RPM drive shows Atom being superior to OP1a in terms of less I/O stress in Premiere CC.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Agree with everything you say Jack.

My take on the OP1a and OP-Atom differences Jack.

Give me OP1a any day as I prefer to work with the muxed streams. I haven't edited Panasonic P2 MXF footage for a while now, which are OP-Atom based MXF, and I have a few nasty memories from those previous times.

All is fine until you get a set of files sent to you where the "Lastclip" TXT file is corrupt in some of the file groups and you can't read the files which are all in individual folders for video and audio streams. Having all those folders is unnecessarily complicated in my opinion. If one becomes corrupted it becomes a disaster of monumental proportions to sort out and reassemble and I've seen that problems too many times. I've never had that issue when all the streams have been muxed together as in OP1a Sony XDCam MXF files. Will happily trade off more CPU overhead to avoid OP-Atom MXF issues if I can.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Blackmagic saves the audio and video streams for OP-Atom in the same folder as opposed to multiple folders like in P2.

For instance, an SSD recorded in "DNxHD MXF" will have on it's root:

Capture0000V.mxf
Capture0000A1.mxf
Capture0000A2.mxf

At the high datarates of 4K 60p, it makes more sense not muxing the audio stream in the same file. I get that some people want to ensure a single stream to ensure there's no separate file corruption, but moving forward, the recorder companies don't need to use complex folder structures like how P2 does it. All the files will be on the root.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

BM's implementation is very basic though Jack.

If you require full metadata access, metadata editing and auditing like you have with both Panasonic's and Sony's apps for handling MXF in a broadcast environment where copyright information needs to go through the process of file ingest and all file manipulations thereafter you need all the information that is contained in those Panasonic folders. Same goes for all the information that is stored in Sony's single muxed file system.

The Sony workflow system is neat and all self contained and when you are working with thousands of hours of archive footage there is far less chance of corruption. To see what you can do with Panasonic's P2 structure have a look at

P2 Contents Management Software | P2HD Series | Broadcast and Professional AV

The BM file structure is not close to to having or offering a professional MXF workflow like the Panasonic P2 Contents Management software offers and I stress workflow for professional network central server applications. Agreed if you don't need these sorts of data manipulation access facilities then yes I would agree a simpler video and audio only root directory folder layout would be a much better idea. If you do need all the workflow capabilities of a true MXF file database management system I for one would rather see it all wrapped up so to speak in one muxed wrapper a la Sony's OP1a way. It all depends on the needs dictated by the given workflow requirements as to what is preferable.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Okay, so OP1a is a much better choice for metadata. It's not efficient for I/O purposes but I can see how you can add tons of metadata into the file.

Blackmagic choosing OP-Atom might have faltered for facility based metadata then.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Fully agree with those three observations Jack.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Friends,

We have been discussing OP1A versus OP-Atom with many high level experts
(including major television networks) recently.

OP1A has an advantage in that all of the streams, video + audio are in one file.

Thus, there is far less chance of a file not arriving at its destination.

Of course, there may be other opinions.

We certainly have the horsepower to handle OP1A.

And we have lots of expertise in wrapping the files in MXF.

-------------

Dear Chris Medico

Yes, Avid DNxHR will be needed for 4K and Ultra-HD.

To state the obvious, we are working hard to get Avid DNxHD ready first.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Quote:
"We have been discussing OP1A versus OP-Atom with many high level experts
(including major television networks) recently. OP1A has an advantage in that all of the streams, video + audio are in one file. Thus, there is far less chance of a file not arriving at its destination."

Thanks for heads up Dan.

+1 for OP1a.

Yes 100% concur with going OP1a as in many years of working with OP1a MXF I have found it to be more reliable than Atom for that exact reason, files getting lost or corrupted. This would make a massive difference and CD products though very well accepted around the globe would be even more employed in the broadcast industry with OP1a MXF as opposed to the venerable ProRes which has no capability to integrate into a network MXF database workflow. At the moment any ProRes programming we have to supply has to be converted to Sony OP1a MXF for delivery. Being able to start and end in a transparent OP1a workflow would be advantageous for sure. All I can add is the sooner the better for the industry as a whole.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Christopher,

Thank you for the confirmation.

We are working very hard to bring this out just as soon as possible.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Great news Mr. Dan.

Look forward to those developments with anticipation.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

With Adobe announcing Native ProRes hooks for an upcoming version of Premiere CC, I hope this doesn't suade the development team away from DNxHD MXF development.

Post houses don't often update to the latest version of an NLE so it would be beneficial still to have a DNxHD/DNxHR MXF OP1a option.

Re: DNxHD - Update
 

Dear Friends,

Here is an important update on our DNxHD progress.

As most of you know, we have been working on Avid DNxHD for quite a while.

Now that we released our latest firmware, 2016.06 today, our number one priority is integrating our Avid DNxHD code into our production level firmware, then we will perform additional testing.

To explain, our Avid DNxHD code was developed, from scratch, in a firmware base apart from our production level firmware. Now we are adding this code to our main firmware code base.

Our plans are to have this integration work done by our next firmware release.

Note: 2016.06 took quite a while to perfect as this version added many significant new features..

Our next firmware release should come out much sooner.

----------------------

Last September, I was working with experts at Avid to determine which wrapper we should use, MXF or MOV.

At that time, Avid DNxHD in a MXF wrapper was suggested as the best.

-------------------

Then our engineers performed additional research, so I started working again with experts at Avid, experts at two major television networks, and some other interested parties.

I personally visited two of the major networks and discussed the two options "MXF" and "MOV" (QuickTime) wrappers.

The conclusion was that the QuickTime wrapper worked very well. And it was more widely supported.

We also took into consideration that we could have the Avid DNxHD in the QuickTime wrapper ready months sooner than "MXF".

Thus, our next planned firmware release is expected to have Avid DNxHD in the QuickTime wrapper.

(Please note: If we need find errors in 2016.06 firmware, then we may have to issue an interim release.)

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Thanks for the update Dan,

Will you be rewriting the codec for DNxHR since DNxHD is EOL?

Edit - MOV wrapper is fine when you are on the MAC side of the fence. It is NOT fine on the PC side of the fence since most editing programs will still use the QT decoder to read it. This causes problems with gamma shifting. A wrapper other than MOV will be needed to make DNxHR work properly in the PC world.

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dan ~

I fully echo C. M.'s comments.

Just my 5 cents worth. I'm surprised to see CD going with the .MOV implementation as it will be a no go for a lot of PC ops with no ongoing QT support. In the broadcast world for server situations and audit tracking MXF is the de facto standard now. Both Panasonic and Sony have seen to that with their Atom and OP1A MXF cameras, recorders and platforms. That's why Avid had to go with MXF, to fully integrate into the rapidly expanding MXF media infrastructure. It was CD's adoption of Sony's XDCam MPEG-2 MXF format that made the Nanoflash into a successful and widely accepted product because it was the perfect fit for the growing industry demand for MXF.

Sony's OP1a XDCAM MXF is supported by Adobe After Effects, Adobe Premiere Pro, Apple Final Cut Pro X, Autodesk Smoke, Avid, Capella systems, Dalet, EVS, Imagine Communications Corp., Omneon, Quantel, Rhozet, Sony Vegas Pro, Sorenson Squeeze, Telestream FlipFactory, GrassValley EDIUS, Grass Valley K2, and Merging Technologies VCube just to name a few.

Sure MOV is great in a production island but it is not space efficient and isn't used right across the broadcast spectrum like MXF. I for one would rather wait for MXF rather than be pushed into MOV just because it can be delivered easier and quicker. With the industry support for MXF from some of the major movers and shakers in the industry as outlined above I really can't see the rationale in CD going with MOV and swimming against the tide of MXF adoption. I would have thought that CD joining this rapidly expanding consortium of like minds in the industry would have been pretty much at the forefront of CD's thinking. Then again I'm not party to CD's business model or rationale but from the outside is does appear that a decision to go even further down the MOV path at this point in time is somewhat puzzling.

Looks like we will primarily work with native MXF and if the need arises for an intermediate editing codec on Windows we will work with Cineform's SMPTE VC-5 AVI implementation. Resolve on Windows can conform to and export Cineform AVI and that doesn't invite any security issues as QT dependency now does on Windows. Hopefully NLE providers will over time offer native MOV / ProRes support on Win like Adobe have just announced.

A few dedicated Mac users I know of are moving to more powerful PC based platforms for 4K work as the Mac Pro is now now beginning to show its age being based on 2013 technology which today makes it a lot harder to drag into into the 4K world efficiently and economically. I guess the question for the future is will Mac update the Pro and if not what is the future of MOV at the high end of Mac 4k editing in the bigger post houses if they move to the Win platform? They won't be using QT MOV of that I'm pretty sure.

We live in interesting times!

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Dear Chris and Christopher,

I have been traveling and exhibiting our products at Infocomm in Las Vegas this week.

I will respond in detail to your posts as soon as possible.

Respectfully,

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

Look forward to hearing CD's moves Dan.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: DNxHD - When is it coming?
 

2 months since the last post. Any word of when the first production level ready code for this is to be implemented?