New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

[Barry Goyette]

My first impression regarding the C200 was why the lack of XF-AVC, because in my limited view and experience with Cinema DNG RAW, I've always wondered who has the time for needing to "process" every clip before editing, and dealing with all those damn individual DNG files.

After watching the various promo videos, it does seem like Canon is pushing a workflow here that may be less onerous than cinema DNG. In the BTS for "the mackerel hunters", it appears the file workflow is fairly simple (single file clips) , and I like the ability to choose from a variety of formats, gamma's and color spaces in post. in some ways this camera seems remarkably capable for high end work, and that fact that it records RAW INTERNALLY is really the game-changing element.

I guess the real question for me will be how simplified and speedy the RAW development workflow truly is. Heading to cinegear in a few days to start asking questions. :-)

[Christopher Young]

Doh! My bad Chris. Thanks for picking me up on that statement.

I picked up on the first two pictures. First picture stating: Above: Canon EOS C200 (with rear EVF) and the second one stating: Above: Canon EOS C200B (without rear EVF). Not realizing that the first picture (with rear EVF) also meant that the rest of the kit was included.

I now see further down the under Pricing and Availability the full breakdown of what comes standard with the 200 as opposed to the 200B. Reading too quickly and not always inwardly digesting the info correctly. Sorry about that didn't mean to mislead readers with my statement.

Obviously a more tempting proposition with all included at $7.5K

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

[John Vincent]

Bit of an odd camera. Looks to only record non-RAW files in 8 bit 4:2:0..... which will be a huge turnoff to lots of potential buyers. It will have its niche I'm sure, but this rather limited restriction on "normal" recording is a bit bizarre.

One other thing that doesn't make much sense - the flip screen doesn't seem to be able to flip over towards the front of the camera. That's one of the huge negatives about the Sony A6300/500 series of cameras, and one of the huge pluses of the GH5. Making it doubly strange is that the flip screen is out above the body - meaning it doesn't need to conform to the shape of the camera to flip.

It seems as though this camera is aimed mostly at current Canon C100/300 owners, or those already ready to buy into those platforms. It'll be interesting on what happens with real world footage and work-flows.

But the bottom line is that more cameras is always a good thing, so good for Canon.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

Looks to only record non-RAW files in 8 bit 4:2:0..... which will be a huge turnoff to lots of potential buyers.

Which is odd considering the XC10/15 can record 8-bit 4:2:2 internally to XF-AVC. That Canon couldn't or wouldn't add this to the C200 at launch is puzzling.

Also, it seems as if the Cine-Raw Lite recording will be limited to DCI only. Hopefully that will be cleared up tomorrow, because DCI-only would mean cropping the sides off for 99% of everything.

[Josh Dahlberg]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

Bit of an odd camera. Looks to only record non-RAW files in 8 bit 4:2:0..... which will be a huge turnoff to lots of potential buyers. It will have its niche I'm sure, but this rather limited restriction on "normal" recording is a bit bizarre.

I expect this is to placate C300mk2 owners (like me) and shift remaining C300 units. Other than the more robust codec options, the C300 has little to recommend it over the C200.

The C200 is getting the XF-AVC codecs in the first half of 2018 by firmware update apparently. I'm sure they could ship it with the better codecs but choose not to. I'd say this means an updated C300mk3 (with touch screen, RAW plus more features) coming first half 2018, at which point they've no longer any reason to hobble the C200.

At this point I'll probably pick the C200 up myself... looks fantastic.

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

... but this rather limited restriction on "normal" recording is a bit bizarre.

I keep wondering if Canon has just sort of screwed up the communication on what this RAW light really is. Once I watched the overview video that explains the Raw Development, and the BTS video which talks about the flexibility of this self contained CRM file, I started to think about this as just another form of transcoding. I'm curious how arduous it will be. I mean, when I import a bunch of mxf's into FCPX...it transcodes everything...albeit in the background, but often slowing the program to a crawl while it does it's business. If RAW Light also means a workflow that isn't all that different from converting most camera codecs into editing codecs, (I like that you can pick and choose your formats, gammas and color space after the fact.) then this is just a paradigm shift for cinema eos users.

This camera isn't for me yet, as I'm quite happy with my C300mkII, but I think I'm seeing with this camera Canon moving towards a very mature "cinema" workflow with this, and perhaps it won't be a painful as RAW usually is...

--------
I agree with Gary that it is incredibly strange this delay on the xf-avc.The explanation that an 8 bit version will take time to build doesn't hold water to me. I think it's got to be about protecting the C300 likely to near the end of its product cycle. Again..I'm really fine with that. Like you said...more cameras is better.

as for the DCI 4k..that one is curious...there is a frame size setting in the Canon Raw Development utility...although it's not clear the parameters. Perhaps we'll be able to at least have overlays...with the RAW image being more like open gate on the Alexa.

[Dan Brockett]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

One other thing that doesn't make much sense - the flip screen doesn't seem to be able to flip over towards the front of the camera. That's one of the huge negatives about the Sony A6300/500 series of cameras, and one of the huge pluses of the GH5. Making it doubly strange is that the flip screen is out above the body - meaning it doesn't need to conform to the shape of the camera to flip.

In one of the three ProAV (retailer from the UK) videos, he shows that the screen does flip toward the front in "selfie" mode.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

...the flip screen doesn't seem to be able to flip over towards the front of the camera.

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

...he shows that the screen does flip toward the front in "selfie" mode.

Just to confirm, the touch-screen LCD on the C200 does indeed flip forward for the talent. There's a "mirror" button right on the side of the monitor to facilitate this purpose.

[Cliff Totten]

Did I hear the HDMI 4k is locked down to 8bit only?

Did I hear that right? So this camera is not 10bit friendly to external recorders?

Canon forces you to record 10bit in highly compressed h.264 or record short recordings in raw data to small and expensive CFast cards?

If so, nice (brilliant) cripple trick Canon. I was interested...but not anymore.

Canon has a bizare marketing department. Seems to be the same people that layed out the 5D-4 cripple plan.

Nice.

[Brian Rhodes]

The SDI: 1x BNC (output) is 10bit

[Barry Goyette]

...in 1080p.

FWIW... Cloakroom Media just posted a couple of short tests. This one shows face detection performing incredibly well in a scene that my C300II would probably screw up (especially in Clog2).

Canon C200: Face detection tracking scene on Vimeo

this one shows where ISO 32,000 lands in terms of noise in CRL, and how well it cleans up in Neat Image. Not bad!

Canon C200: 32,000 ISO 4K RAW NOISE TEST on Vimeo

[Dan Brockett]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

Bit of an odd camera. Looks to only record non-RAW files in 8 bit 4:2:0..... which will be a huge turnoff to lots of potential buyers. It will have its niche I'm sure, but this rather limited restriction on "normal" recording is a bit bizarre.

One other thing that doesn't make much sense - the flip screen doesn't seem to be able to flip over towards the front of the camera. That's one of the huge negatives about the Sony A6300/500 series of cameras, and one of the huge pluses of the GH5. Making it doubly strange is that the flip screen is out above the body - meaning it doesn't need to conform to the shape of the camera to flip.

It seems as though this camera is aimed mostly at current Canon C100/300 owners, or those already ready to buy into those platforms. It'll be interesting on what happens with real world footage and work-flows.

But the bottom line is that more cameras is always a good thing, so good for Canon.

I'm waiting to see what Mitch and Panasonic show at Cine Gear tomorrow before I make any pre-order decisions. The C200 is at once, both exciting and yet incredibly frustrating. I actually had a client call to get numbers from me yesterday for shooting BTS for a TV series shooting back east. She said the client specified 4K acquisition and delivery. I don't own a 4K camera, just three 1080 cameras so I told her about the C200 as she loves Canon colors. There is no way we could shoot 4-6 days of BTS coverage of the filming of the show in Cinema RAW Light, we would need to rent a huge pile of CFast cards and the downloading, data wrangling while on location and subsequent post workflow would be a huge hassle for her company. We could shoot the .MP4 8-bit 4:2:0 UHD, it would be cheap and would be a low data rate solution. But if she decided that the footage really needs to pushed a bit, 8-bit 4:2:0 isn't going to cut it and we did not get a delivery spec sheet from the studio, which may specify 10-bit and or 4:2:2 acquisition. So I told her we should probably just rent a C300 MKII. We generally don't shoot slow motion, 4K 60p is not a requirement and shooting XF-AVC, our CFast cards would last much longer than shooting Cinema RAW Light. So if I am going to be renting the C300 MKII for shoots like this, maybe I should buy a C300 MKII over the C200? But it is still considerably more money and I predict a big price dump on the C300 MKII when they announce the C300 MKIII, which will undoubtedly integrate all of the great new features of the C200.

If we knew for a fact that the C200 XF-AVC implementation will be 10 bit, it might be worth waiting for. But all indications are that it will be 8-bit. Meh. Why do I want a camera that is capable of such brilliant imagery like 12-bit 4K DCI Cinema RAW Light shooting 8-bit in my workhorse, day to day codec when they obviously could have and should have made it shoot 10-bit? The C200 is turning out to be quite a conundrum. So close to greatness but not quite there.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Brian Rhodes

The SDI: 1x BNC (output) is 10bit

I doubt that 1BNC port is 12gig 4k 10bit.

I think Canon has clearly demaned that your 10bit stay within the confines of its very highly compressed h.264 internal CODEC or record only very short 10bit 4k clips with raw data to small, expensive CFast cards. Canon does not want to loose control of the situation by allowing you to get your own 10bit recording solution OUTSIDE of the camera. (I.e. circumvent Canon's carefully planned internal restrictions)

Canon wants this to be the marketing protection wall between this C200 and its more expensive C300.

I mean, they HAVE to protect the C300 with something, right? I do have to laugh though at the ways they think up to get the customers with big money to stay away from their cheaper products.

The MJPEG codec on the 5D-IV was one of the funniest crippling tricks I had ever seen to date. Then, they told Canon reps to convince customers how "awesome" MJPEG was and to get customers to actually "desire" this almost 20 year old codec and that they dont need unlocked HDMI out. Lol

Im still laughing at that one. Looks like Canon is doing the HDMI lockdown (8bit only) trick all over again. Hehe

Solution? By a C300 instead. (Or a competitor like Panasonic's new camera being revealed tomorrow)

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

So if I am going to be renting the C300 MKII for shoots like this, maybe I should buy a C300 MKII over the C200? But it is still considerably more money and I predict a big price dump on the C300 MKII when they announce the C300 MKIII, which will undoubtedly integrate all of the great new features of the C200.

I wouldn't worry about a C300 Mark IV or a C400 until next year...late next year. If you can use the C300 Mark II now, it's still a good time to buy.

You'll get 10-bit 4:2:2 UHD/DCI internally with a 128GB CFast card netting you 41 minutes of that. And you have two slots, unlike the C200, so you can roll for as long as you want (and 256GB Sandisk CFast cards are available as well, for 82 minutes per card).

I would like to have 60p and internal Cine-Raw Lite, but I have been very happy with the camera as is. And 12-bit 444 XF-AVC mode is really nice to have in 2K/1080.

[John Vincent]

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

In one of the three ProAV (retailer from the UK) videos, he shows that the screen does flip toward the front in "selfie" mode.

Hey Dan, you gotta link? 'Cause the footage w/ Kai makes it pretty clear that even if the screen could flip (which it didn't look like it could do), it'd still be prevented from doing so by that rather stout looking cable attached to the bottom.

If you have to detach that cable to flip the screen, that would get very old very quickly...