Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

It will be 8-bit only. What other cameras do you know about that allow 8-bit internal recording while also outputting 10-bit externally? That's not how Canon does things.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

lol,....I guess you have a point!

Well,...the $2000 GH5 has no problem outputting 10bit. The Sony FS5 records 10bit HD and 8bit 4k....but!,...at least it outputs 12bit raw sensor data to allow external 10bit conversion to ProRes. The Panasonic EVA1 has everything, 10bit internal 400Mbp/s, 5.7K raw output, dual ISO...plus the kitchen sink for "under $8000"!!!!!

I guess you are right. This C200 will be an 8bit camera for anything longer than 15min recordings. It was on my radar for a December purchase but I see no reason not to swing over to the EVA1 instead. IBC will likely bring Sony's new competition out too. I strongly suspect that Sony will work hard to compete with the EVA1. (Something Canon seems to be NOT willing to do)

It's going to be extremely hard to say "no" to the EVA 1. They have thoroughly overloaded the damn thing up with soooo many features. How in the hell can anybody say "nah,...it's not worth it". Haha...it's RIDICULOUSLY over-packed with features..


CT

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

When it records 10-bit internally. You can't record 4Kp60 internally if you're recording out to an Atomos Shogun/Ninja Inferno.

Because it records 10-bit HD and 8-bit 4K internally.

Which is what the C200 does as well, only internally to a CFast card.

$7999. Plus, you know that camera at Cine Gear was just a mockup, right? While the specs look good, it could be 1st Quarter 2018 before anyone gets their hands on it.

At this point I don't see how it doesn't undercut the Varicam LT (besides a 2K 12-bit 444 mode that it has like the C300 Mark II), so I would wait with baited breath. Just the fact it uses bone fide Vlog and not Vlog L made me do a spit take.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

I just ordered the C200. But I am also buying an EVA1 and and will live with both for a month of shooting. Loser gets sold, winner stays on. They both have features that I really want. Wish there was a camera that had the best of both.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

There just might be one or two people interested in your conclusion, Dan!

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Typical Canon "mushy" soft sensor readout. When will Canon finally catch up to everybody's else's oversampling techniques?

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

BINGO! You hit the nail right on the head.

I'm becoming a big fan of oversampling these days. A 1:1 readout from an RGGB Bayer pattern sensor is the rock bottom MINIMUM way to create a "4k" image. Hell, your green channel, the HIGHEST resolution channel you have, is literally only 1/2 4k resolution.

Folks,....let that sink in. The highest resolution channel is literally nowhere near 4k resolution. Even worse, the red and blue channels are only 1/4 4k resolution!! THIS SUCKS!

When Sony does a 6k image scan, they are reading out a green channel that is 100% full raster 4k. And, they are supplementing that image with a 1/2 4k resolution red and blue channels.It's still not a full raster RGB image but at teh very least, a 6k oversample will deliver 1 full raster green channel as the foundation of your image for de-Bayering.

This is why the EVA-1 (5.7k readout) will likely EASILY display much more detail than the C200.

We'll see but the EVA-1 has all the numbers on it's side.

CT

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

I've been on some forums where a few have argued tirelessly that a 10 bit 4:2:2 codec is unnecessary when you have RAW internal as a feature of this camera. Boy, I'd love to live in their World where jobs are simply divided between those demanding a crappy but low bitrate of 100mbps for 25p or those wanting a higher quality where RAW is an easy answer.

I personally think Canon's inclusion of RAW recording to be very innovative and ground breaking, but despair that it comes at the cost of a robust 10 bit 4:2:2 codec internal for jobs where RAW and 8 bit low bitrate are not the obvious choices. It maybe this omission will be addressed in future updates and I'm patient enough to sit and see if Canon either fix this or if the EVA1 delivers on some of its features.

I think if you're one of those people who feel the C200 is a great choice of camera, go for it. If you're somewhat conflicted, then hold off and wait until next year when both the C200 and the EVA1 have had a chance to show what each are capable of.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

It will be fixed with a C300 Mark II/C400, whatever they call the next iteration of that camera. There is no reason to ever give you 10-bit 4:2:2 in the C200, it would immediately kill the C300 Mark II, and that's not good business.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Oh I think there's plenty of reasons to give us 10 bit 4:2:2 in the C200 - happy customers, a superior product that has a wider range of codes to support a variety of shooting needs, better competition with similar priced cameras - e.g the FS7 and EVA1. Alas the one good reason for not delivering such a product - the demands of a Business that has a higher priced model that need protecting takes precedence.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

All of those are true. All of those would immediately kill demand for their higher-priced model. That's not good business.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

It says something of their higher priced models that they have to remove 10 bit 4:2:2 from the C200, a feature available in the FS7 and EVA1 in order to protect sales of such models.

My Panasonic GX80, G80 and GH4 whilst limited by their form factor are at least consistent in their codecs - delivering 4K at 100mbps throughout, despite variations in price. Canon in comparison, is all over the place - their 4K codec available on the XC-10 differs from the 5d Mark IV, which differs from the C200, which differs from the C300. I confess I prefer Panasonic's way of nobbling their cameras, by removing features, whilst keeping a consistent codec throughout.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

I believe it's because Panasonic has nothing to lose. Varicam is starting to gain traction, helped by it being an approved Netflix camera, but no where near how often I see an Alexa Mini, Epic-W. I know one person here in Austin that has an LT model. And the EVA1 is serious going to undercut that lower-priced model (to the Varicam 35) because you lose almost nothing with it other than 12-bit 444 in 2k/1080. In exchange you get everything else, including full Vlog (not Vlog L) and the ability to shoot to cheaper SD cards vs P2 Express ($500 vs $1150 for 256GB). That's quite a nice tradeoff in terms of price. I love my 12-bit 444 mode on my C300 II, but if that's the only difference, it's not worth it.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

When companies cripple lower cameras to protect higher models, they must assume that a higher "was" about to get sold but was "stolen" by the cheaper model. This is really just a guess on the company's part. There is no way to really know how much higher model money was lost to a cheaper model with great specs.

Camera companies "asume" cheaper customers "would have" paid more to get the higher model of the lower one was just crippled a bit more.

Its a big roll of the dice for camera companies to predict "lost" sales of more expensive models. But I do think Panasonic is being extraordinary agressive with cost to feature ratio today. They are not fearing canabolism as much a Sony and Canon are right now.

I think Panasonic will be handsomely rewarded with good profit numbers next year because if this.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

If every company put the same features in their $7k cameras that they did in their $35k cameras, they wouldn't sell any $35k cameras, and they probably their $7k cameras wouldn't have half the features they have now because no one would be innovating.

The same company that makes the the 2.4 million euro Bugatti also makes the $20k Volkswagen Golf. I gotta tell you, VW has no Idea how many sales they are missing by not putting 16 cylinders and 1500hp into their econoboxes. They are leaving money on the table. Totally. :-)

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

I would venture to guess that this company survives more on its "Volkswagon" brand more than it does on its "Bugatti" brand. I would guess that its real bread and butter is its global "Volkswagon" brand and "Bugatti" is just there for show or status or to "suppliment" the "Volkswagon" brand.

Its really hard to say. Panasonic is going to sell a TON of EVA-1's....I mean ALOT of them. EVA-1's could sell a 20 to 1 ratio over the Varicam LT ( next higher model). Hell, it could be a 50 to 1 ratio for all we know. With profit margins being what they are, Panasonic could rake in MUCH more money on the EVA-1 side than it could ever hope for on the Varicam LT side.

The whole point is to make the biggest money possible. Sometimes canabolizing yourself can give you better profits than if you tried too hard to protect yourself.

I dont believe there is any reliable way to know if your EVA-1 sold like crazy....if that actually "hurt" Varicam LT sales. And....even if it did partially hurt the Varicam LT you might easily make up for that loss on huge EVA-1 sales.

Im pretty sure Panny would gladly accept very high profits if that was the end result no matter which model gave it to them.

Do Bugatti buyers say; "I love the Bugatti but I think I'll go with the Volkswagon because they turbochared and added nice leather seats in the VW this year"

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

:-) Cliff..

Canon has decided where the divisions are between their product lines pretty successfully for a lot of years...I just don't understand why you are so worried for them. Is it because panasonic is just going to steal all their business because they showed off a little hollow plastic box (filled with sand to make it "feel right") and announced a few highlight specifications? I've been around this game a very long time and I've seen panasonic do this exact thing on many occasions...it's their thing...the empty prototype. I've seen them show the same dummy two NAB's in a row...This Eva that you're all sweaty about isn't even a camera.

The week that Canon showed off the C300 mark II for the first time, RED announced their Raven. Promising to deliver it within weeks of the announcement. (not sure how they did on that promise, but I do know that Jarred Land has said that camera was the biggest mistake RED ever made, because it fundamentally changed the price point for their customer). I was sitting next to Tim Smith from Canon that day, and he was a little amused by the whole thing. "Laughing all the way to the bank" he chuckled. "I'm going to sell a hell of a lot of lenses because of what RED did today, (Raven is EF only) and I make way more profit on each of those lenses than they're going to make off that camera." I'll be willing to bet he said the same thing after Mitch's announcement at CineGear.

Here's the thing...before Sony killed it's middle tier with the FS7, there was a price point around $15-20k for these cameras. That tier is going away...because the upstarts and now the adults are going to start fighting for the $7-10k customer. The problem is this...do you really think there is 5-7k more cost to build a C300II or an F5 or and F55 than there is a C200 or an fS7-5? There is probably about $500 difference and maybe less. That difference in price is all profit, which means these companies are all heading towards a "lose money on every camera, make it up in volume" business model, just to maintain market share.

Except for the ones that make and sell a lot of lenses. Those guys want a lot of cameras on the streets. I'm curious to know if you know which of the top two lens manufacturers have a professional video division.

Something tells me Canon hopes Panasonic sells a million EVA-1's.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

There’s one thing that I haven’t understood : When do you shot RAW you must select a LOG profile? The CRM files (RAW Light files) without C-LOG are fully colorized or they have a flat look?

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

All the CRM files will have Clog3 as the look on them, nothing else will be available.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

So it's not clear for me if you can select also C-Log2, because you're saying if I've understood clearly that C-Log 3 is baked into CRM files.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Clog2 is not available on the C200. Only Clog for the 8-bit (as a choice) and Clog3 for the raw files (baked in).

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

You can choose Clog2 or Clog3 (plus BT.709, DCI, Wide DR gammas) when converting the CRM files in Canon's Raw Development program. CRM files are shot in Canon's Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut, Clog3 is not "baked in".

From the C200 Post production Brief available from Canon:

"C200 captures its RAW information in a proprietary RAW Gamut and RAW Gamma. This data needs to be taken from their RAW spaces, and conformed into one of the many gamma curves or color spaces to begin the post-production process. The footage from the EOS C200 can be conformed into a wide range of spaces, from Cinema Gamut down to BT.709, and from Canon Log 2 to Wide DR. The choice is yours and dependent on the amount of post-production resources you’re planning to allocate. However, if you are shooting in the RAW format presumably you’re going to want to take full advantage of the information captured utilizing a combination of Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut. This Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut combination is the most ideal starting point for an HDR workflow, providing the full 15 stop dynamic range the sensor has to offer, as well as the widest range of encoded colors."

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

This is very different from the previous Canon raw format. I wonder if they'll add it to the C300 II/C700.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Thanks Barry, but how do you choose the Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut if you directly import in Da Vinci without using Canon's Raw Development program?

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

You'd think it would be possible, but I kinda doubt it will ever happen....(I've said forever that 4kp60 should be possible on the C300markII, and that's never happened :-)

-- maybe the C700, as it will likely be 2-3 years before they mark II it.

Dunno. Don't use DaVinci Resolve and I haven't seen the beta yet. Reading between the lines in the PP Brief I posted here earlier, it would seem that you'd be working with their Raw Gamma as opposed to one of the LOGs...which at first seems strange, but that's really how you traditionally work with RAW files in say Photoshop (along with some metadata that gives you a linear preview). It may be that there is an ingest profile similar to an ACES workflow that converts to a specific LOG or something else altogether. You might pose this question to Seb over at C5d, as he's apparently done some work with Resolve and the CRM files when he reviewed the camera...

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Just saw the C200 in person today at InfoComm. I wanted to make absolutely sure that the HDMI was indeed locked down to 8bit. Sadly, they fully confirmed this. What a shame that Canon crippled this beautiful camera this way.

I told them this little fact completely killed it for me. I have zero use for CLog in a low spec 4:2:0 8bit CODEC and very little use for raw sensor data on small cards. The only thing I want this camera for is 10bit log in external ProRes. And, this C200 cant do that simple thing for me because the C300 needs protection.

Its officially off my radar screen now. The EVA1 right now is in my sights for Christmas.

They told me they understood my problem with the camera and would pass it along to Canon management on the final show report.

[Sigh].....oh well. What can you do?

"If you dont canabolize yourself, than somebody else will" - Steve Jobs

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Clog was built for 8-bit 4:2:2. Shooting 10-bit in Clog gives you the basic benefits of 10-bit color, but nothing in regard to Clog. Clog2/3 is for 10-bit.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Your quoting of the late CEO and co-founder of Apple raised a lot of questions in my mind. First, did he really use such bad spelling and grammar when he talked? :-} (he didn't), did he actually say such a thing (he did), and what was he really talking about when he said it.

Back in 2007, Apple was riding high on sales of it's iPod, an innovative product that, along with the iMac, led to its recovery from the doldrums of the Sculley-Gil Amelio era, a period where apple's overlapping product lines led to market confusion, declining sales and profits turned into losses. As iPod sales began to crest, Apple announced the iPhone, a revolutionary product that, for the most part made the iPod, it's biggest selling product in units and profits, obsolete. History of course will look back on this new product as perhaps the greatest success in technology history, as Apple's revenue has grown more than ten-fold since its introduction. When Apple "cannibalized" the iPod, it was to shift the fundamental axis of the company's trajectory, and it was done to a product line that had matured, was at the end of its growth period, and largely, had run it's course.

Jobs, otherwise, was famous for protecting Apple's products, by focusing on incredibly lean product lines with almost no overlap. Apple products during the Jobs period had an elegant "uniqueness". His goal was to get you to buy multiple apple products versus cramming all the features in the world into one single gadget.

So you, Cliff, have placed the importance of one single i/o feature of the Canon C200, on par with Apple's destruction of the iPod in favor of the iPhone. In fact, one could argue that Canon, with the C200, by offering a new approach to RAW, is doing something closer to what Steve Jobs had in mind. For many users, the offering of a simplified RAW will make this camera seem MORE attractive than the C300II to some users.

Canon has always struck me as an Apple compared to Sony's IBM. It has generally eschewed headline features (like speed) over a certain elegance of the product. When it does innovate, like it did with DPAF, and it's now doing with its approach to RAW, it does so to shift it's own axis, but also that of it's customers.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Yeah, my Steve Jobs quote is just a general concept that applies to all industries. I really dont care about Jobs saying it or it being specific to Apple products. I think its just a good "general" term and I think it applies to all the camera companies. Henry Ford could have said it and it's still relevant.

For me, at that price, 8bit 4:2:0 video is not what I want. For me, raw sensor data is great but not on expensive CFast media. Anybody know what a single 512gig CFast card costs? I want long form 1-2 hour 10bit "video" recordings.

For me, I need 10bit video into ProRes. I can even live with no internal recording at all. 4:2:0 8bit is useless for 4k high quality color grading. Panasonic will provide that AND 5.7k raw data. I strongly suspect that Sony will also have a lower cost 10bit answer to the EVA-1 at IBC too.

Its very possible that the C200 could be THE most expensive 8bit 4:2:0 "video" locked down camera on the market. No, raw sensor data is not "video".

Look, i get it. Many people will pay any price and go to the ends of the Earth to get "Canon colors" but for me, I think that blocking out external recorders is going to far for me to accept. Especially when there are other extremely attractive and higher spec options for that same cost.

If you like the C200, thats cool. I did love it myself until I found out they killed my 4k ProRes recorders. Luckily I will have some other choices soon.

Im pretty sure this locked HDMI thing makes Panasonic and Sony happy as Hell. :-)

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Raw Light is however a way to enable end users to TREAT it like video... like the way that RedCode works; you don't HAVE To transcode it into an editor friendly format if you have a decent GPU in your system these days.

I suspect that Canon is banking on that, though odds are Red's scalable implementation will continue to exceed it in terms of efficiency. Red's put a lot of optimization time into that.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

General statements of this nature cannot, by their very definition, be true.

Then there are other options for you, including a GH5 + Shogun. Or even a GH4 + Shogun.

But for some reason you don't want those other options.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Even a Raven is in the same price range... and has both RAW recording options as well as ProRes. ;)

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Dont get me wrong. I appreciate the coolness of raw-light files. Im glad the C200 does this.

However, as much as I love it, would have traded that feature for an unlocked 10bit HDMI output. If im going to shoot a 1 or 2 hour concert or play, Id much rather have a 10bit ProRes video file. Short raw data files are nice but I dont want long form recordings in 4:2:0 8bit.

Its an HDMI 2.0 chipset. So, its quite possible that Canon could reverse their 8bit cripple with a firmware revision. Ill be crossing my fingers all summer long.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Are you planning on buying the c200 for concerts/plays? Are you not better of getting a fixed lens camera with a motorized zoom for this purpose?

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Dynamic range with log gamma is what I'm after. And there are allout more things out there to shoot as well. Most fixed lens camcorders are rec709 with 6-7 stops of latitude.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Yeah but for concerts and plays they are a better choice.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

I don't know any guys shooting theatrical that do a lot of grading to their footage. And when I do, I'm usually reducing contrast and saturation unlike most other subject matter.

FWIW ...this is C300 HD 4:2:2 8 bit (equivalent to 4:2:0 4k 8 bit). Graded from C-log. I don't remember if this was shot to card or recorder...either way...still 8 bit, and I think it looks pretty good.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Raven is $9k for the body, which doesn't include a display. Every 120GB Red Mag is $850. It's a crop sensor and not even close to the same price.

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

I thought the C200 was also $9000... then realized that was the price in Euros. The crop is pretty minimal from Super 35 though. And you get 120 fps in 4.5K, and don't need an external recorder for 10-bit ProRes...

Re: New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B
 

Yet you don't own one, and it makes no sense in the context, so why are you pushing for it? The crop is 1.87 to Full Frame, and even higher in 2K. ProRes is only 2K, so that's a 3.74x crop for all ProRes shooting. And you still haven't considered the display costs and the $850 per 120GB Red Mags. It's not even an option, and to continually suggest one in this thread continues to render an example of your poor suggestions.