DVD chips 'to kill illegal copying' at DVinfo.net

Paulo Teixeira · September 16th, 2006, 05:52 PM

I guess future movies will finally be bullet proof.
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/21...-fights-piracy

Jack Zhang · September 16th, 2006, 06:23 PM

Fair Use is going down the toilet...

Lee Wilson · September 16th, 2006, 06:28 PM

There will be a way to get around this in minutes.

Marvin Emms · September 16th, 2006, 06:32 PM

I'm sure thats a really great lock, shame the horse has allready bolted.

Simon Wyndham · September 16th, 2006, 06:58 PM

Something smells a bit, well, hoax like about that news story.

How for example would this work with all the millions of players out there that don't have the required equipment to read the 'radio' signal off the chip?

Also, how on earth would a radio tracker device be able to render a DVD unplayable? By physically changing the disc itself?!

Nope, smells of BS to me and is technically impossible from what I can tell.

Boyd Ostroff · September 16th, 2006, 07:09 PM

Well RFID technology is real and is starting to roll out gradually. I believe WalMart is among one of the first companies to adopt it on a large scale in the US. It provides a way to monitor products as they move through the distribution process without having to physically scan barcodes or anything.

This doesn't sound so far fetched to me, although it probably would take years to adopt on any large scale. I would assume they want your DVD player connected to the internet somehow, and it would need to authorize the DVD by checking its serial number with a database of legal copies. Or maybe it could be even simpler, like refusing to play a disk that didn't have an RFID tag, or if the data on the tag doesn't match some pre-programmed criteria.

Richard Alvarez · September 16th, 2006, 07:12 PM

Oh, I think it's completely doable.

Consider now, that films you see in theatres have those little 'copyguard' diamonds that show up at some point in a scene. Those are 'identifying markers' that are different for each print. SO when some joker sets up his miniDV camera to 'copy' a first run film, and it hits the streets or the internet the next day... the film distributor knows EXACTLY where it was copied. This helps track down the copiers (Or at least gives them a starting point)

This is just an electronic version of the same thing.

Mind you, I'm not a big fan of people knowing that I bought copy #14232773489578csdjelo380120 of "Matrix Remixed and Remastered". But once my magnetic ink is in the system... (Scanned in upon sale) They'll know who bought it initially. When you take it home, and try to 'rip it' Some portion of that code will go onto the 'ripped' media. SO when you give it to your friend, or sell it on the street, and it goes into the brand new dvd players that READ the chips... the DVD players will know if it's a legal copy. The same way your computer knows if you have a legal copy of WIndows Software on it.

Which means that the players won't play a DVD without a 'legal' chip in it.

Yeah, I can see how it would work.

Eventually.

For a little while.

So no, I don't think its BS. It's just another form of copyguard.

(Beat me to the punch Boyd.)

Marvin Emms · September 16th, 2006, 07:38 PM

It is possible to make the technology secure but it pretty much can't happen for DVD.

For example the player can generate a random number, pass this to the chip along with the players public key. The chip then can spit out an encrypted message containing the random number and the key required to decrypt the disk content.

The decoder chip in the player then decrypts the message, checks the random number and if it matches attempts to decrypt the data.

This system could be made secure enough that a copied disk would need someone to reverse engineer the silicon chip of the RFID device.

The problem is noone in charge of the DVD standard will let it be changed in a way that makes all current DVD players obsolete. If the movie can be played on existing DVD players then the video can be decrypted with readily available tools and reprinted as an unprotected DVD.

The horse has not only bolted, but it has flown to europe after stealing a passport from a donkey and is living on the spanish coast under the assumed name of signor Ed and making good money working for a local bar.

Paulo Teixeira · September 16th, 2006, 08:03 PM

Here’s another article about RFIDs being used in DVDs.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060915/094552.shtml

Marvin Emms · September 16th, 2006, 08:10 PM

Not in any meaningful way. The source of the report in that article is the other article.

Paulo Teixeira · September 16th, 2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin Emms

Not in any meaningful way. The source of the report in that article is the other article.

No problem at all.
I was searching for other news article about that situation and they also quote this article. Without fully reading the second article, I thought it was different.

Wayne Morellini · September 16th, 2006, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Something smells a bit, well, hoax like about that news story.

How for example would this work with all the millions of players out there that don't have the required equipment to read the 'radio' signal off the chip?

Also, how on earth would a radio tracker device be able to render a DVD unplayable? By physically changing the disk itself?!

Nope, smells of BS to me and is technically impossible from what I can tell.

Well there goes another opportunity to patent that, had a disk in chip[ idea years ago (came up with something better and dropped it).

RFID have been around for at least ten to 20 years. Really amazing technology, they have little chip and circuit that can be entirely powered by a radio pulse emitted by a transmitter in a room, return the id and then power down.

Amazing low power technique, along with watch microprocessors etc.

Simon Wyndham · September 17th, 2006, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Which means that the players won't play a DVD without a 'legal' chip in it.

But therein lies the problem. They aren't just talking about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD etc, they are talking about normal DVD's.

This copy protection will not work simply because all of the millions of exisitng DVD players out there don't have the ability to read the chip.

Richard Alvarez · September 17th, 2006, 08:14 AM

They dont say 'when' this technology will be employed. So it could be they are forward engineering. YOu know, like all the millions of TV sets out there that can't play HD, or all the MILLIONS of VHS players still in production, ora ll the (?) THOUSANDS of 8-track tape players that people buy and sell tapes for.

Boyd Ostroff · September 17th, 2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

This copy protection will not work simply because all of the millions of exisitng DVD players out there don't have the ability to read the chip.

Well of course that's true. But they could certainly use the technology to stop the distribution of pirated DVD's. Distributors and retail outlets could refuse to accept shipments of DVD's if the packages don't answer an RFID challenge correctly.

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September 16th, 2006, 05:52 PM	#1
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	DVD chips 'to kill illegal copying' I guess future movies will finally be bullet proof. http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/21...-fights-piracy

September 16th, 2006, 06:23 PM	#2
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Fair Use is going down the toilet...

September 16th, 2006, 06:28 PM	#3
Lee Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 376	There will be a way to get around this in minutes.

September 16th, 2006, 06:32 PM	#4
Marvin Emms Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: UK Posts: 204	I'm sure thats a really great lock, shame the horse has allready bolted.

September 16th, 2006, 06:58 PM	#5
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Something smells a bit, well, hoax like about that news story. How for example would this work with all the millions of players out there that don't have the required equipment to read the 'radio' signal off the chip? Also, how on earth would a radio tracker device be able to render a DVD unplayable? By physically changing the disc itself?! Nope, smells of BS to me and is technically impossible from what I can tell.

September 16th, 2006, 07:09 PM	#6
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Well RFID technology is real and is starting to roll out gradually. I believe WalMart is among one of the first companies to adopt it on a large scale in the US. It provides a way to monitor products as they move through the distribution process without having to physically scan barcodes or anything. This doesn't sound so far fetched to me, although it probably would take years to adopt on any large scale. I would assume they want your DVD player connected to the internet somehow, and it would need to authorize the DVD by checking its serial number with a database of legal copies. Or maybe it could be even simpler, like refusing to play a disk that didn't have an RFID tag, or if the data on the tag doesn't match some pre-programmed criteria.

September 16th, 2006, 07:12 PM	#7
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Oh, I think it's completely doable. Consider now, that films you see in theatres have those little 'copyguard' diamonds that show up at some point in a scene. Those are 'identifying markers' that are different for each print. SO when some joker sets up his miniDV camera to 'copy' a first run film, and it hits the streets or the internet the next day... the film distributor knows EXACTLY where it was copied. This helps track down the copiers (Or at least gives them a starting point) This is just an electronic version of the same thing. Mind you, I'm not a big fan of people knowing that I bought copy #14232773489578csdjelo380120 of "Matrix Remixed and Remastered". But once my magnetic ink is in the system... (Scanned in upon sale) They'll know who bought it initially. When you take it home, and try to 'rip it' Some portion of that code will go onto the 'ripped' media. SO when you give it to your friend, or sell it on the street, and it goes into the brand new dvd players that READ the chips... the DVD players will know if it's a legal copy. The same way your computer knows if you have a legal copy of WIndows Software on it. Which means that the players won't play a DVD without a 'legal' chip in it. Yeah, I can see how it would work. Eventually. For a little while. So no, I don't think its BS. It's just another form of copyguard. (Beat me to the punch Boyd.)

September 16th, 2006, 07:38 PM	#8
Marvin Emms Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: UK Posts: 204	It is possible to make the technology secure but it pretty much can't happen for DVD. For example the player can generate a random number, pass this to the chip along with the players public key. The chip then can spit out an encrypted message containing the random number and the key required to decrypt the disk content. The decoder chip in the player then decrypts the message, checks the random number and if it matches attempts to decrypt the data. This system could be made secure enough that a copied disk would need someone to reverse engineer the silicon chip of the RFID device. The problem is noone in charge of the DVD standard will let it be changed in a way that makes all current DVD players obsolete. If the movie can be played on existing DVD players then the video can be decrypted with readily available tools and reprinted as an unprotected DVD. The horse has not only bolted, but it has flown to europe after stealing a passport from a donkey and is living on the spanish coast under the assumed name of signor Ed and making good money working for a local bar.

September 16th, 2006, 08:03 PM	#9
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	Here’s another article about RFIDs being used in DVDs. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060915/094552.shtml

September 16th, 2006, 08:10 PM	#10
Marvin Emms Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: UK Posts: 204	Not in any meaningful way. The source of the report in that article is the other article.

September 17th, 2006, 08:14 AM	#14
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	They dont say 'when' this technology will be employed. So it could be they are forward engineering. YOu know, like all the millions of TV sets out there that can't play HD, or all the MILLIONS of VHS players still in production, ora ll the (?) THOUSANDS of 8-track tape players that people buy and sell tapes for.