Has anyone heard about FCP 720P24 support?
 

When the Apple codec for JVC 24p support will be out. They mentioned June, but now I haven't heard anything about it. Any insiders out there have the latest scoop?
Cal

Hi Cal,

There are no insiders here as far as I know, and if there were, they wouldn't be allowed to discuss it anyway.

What I know from NAB in April is that Apple was demoing a working 720P24 version of FCP 5.1. I played with it for 15 minutes on the demo Macbook Pro they had and it seemed to work fine. It certainly didn't crash or do anything weird.
It is a mystery as to why Apple still has not released this update, yet showed it off over 12 weeks ago. When it is finally released we'll announce with a sticky.

Apple was NOT demoing a real version of their 24p support. This is the most oft repeated false statement of NAB 2006. They had a hacked version of the 30p codec than could skip the Repeat Flags.

This is not what Apple will do for 24p and 24F. They will do a complete HDV solution -- and I don't expect it soon.

In the meantime, I've been extensively testing Avid Liquid. There are many crazy things about Liquid. But, the fact that I can have a 720p30 Timeline with 720p24, 720p30, 480p60, 1080i60, 480i60 (both 4:3 and 16:9), plus QCIF cellphone video -- is mind blowing. Of course, I can also have a 1080i60 Timeline with 720p24, 720p30, 480p60, 1080i60, 480i60 (both 4:3 and 16:9), plus QCIF cellphone video.

I love the fact that both simple (auto-play) and complex (menu driven) DVDs can be made without leaving the application. The WM9 HD output is fantastic! And, I'm going to try the "make a PAL DVD" from an Region 60 Timeline.

I honestly can't go back to FCP. Apple is years behind the competition! I'm also starting to test EDIUS 4 -- and it too is way ahead of FCP. Frankly, both Avid Xpro and Apple's FCP are falling behind in our multi-format world.

My HDV@Work Newsletter will be covering Liquid and EDIUS for the next 2 months.

My hope is that I can run both on my new MacBook.

How do I get your newsletter Steve?

In reguards to Apple, I think that when they decide to unvail their Mac Pro Systems they will also demo the new full update to Final Cut Studio. I have a feeling it will be part of that.

Yes. I tried to subscribe on the page I found the newsletter, but the link didn't work for me.

I use Liquid and have used Edius 3 for some projects and have just purchased the JVC camera and I would very much like to read your information on the two programs. I am trying to decide if I should buy Edius or stay with Liquid. I also have PPro 2, mainly because I bought the whole package since I use all the other programs, but I haven't used PPro much.

Ok, then that's semantics, not a false statement. People are just reporting what they saw, a demo of 24p.

At this point I'm starting to be of the belief that yes, Apple is revamping their MPEG support entirely. Along with possibly the entire engine behind FCP. They are indeed getting left behind in the ability to have multiple resolutions/codecs in a timeline. Let's hope.

By the way, I think the #1 repeated false statement of NAB is "What? I didn't do anything last night. I stayed in"

I also am getting the feeling that Apple is revamping the whole studio. Open Timeline hasn't been a big concern for me, but in this day and age with so many codecs (and more on the way), it is likely Apple will also do this. If they stick with having to edit .MOV files, then they need to provide an addition to Cinema Tools so .MOV wrappers can be added (Focus is testing the .MOV 30P Wrapper and should be out VERY soon).

On another note, I have a strong feeling that Shake may make it into the Studio on the next major update. Then again, since its price dropped maybe it won't.

Sony and Apple are actually showing an FCP plugin for the F-350 that basically does that: it takes the wrapper for the Sony's clips, throws it away and re-wraps the content with the QT wrapper. They claim that the data stream is left untouched (it's actually HDV) and so there's not loss in quality.
They are demoing the system in these day, the dates and places of the roadshow are available at the apple and sony sites.

The software is available now as a free download from http://xdcamhd.com. There are sample .MXF files around for you to play around with if you want. The problem at the moment is that it does not support the 18 and 35mb VBR modes, nor does it support 30P, just 24P nd 60i.

Mark me down as an unhappy camper at the moment with Apple/Sony. BTW, I attended the 1st event at Dallas on 6/28 and it was basically a re-hash of what they showed at NAB.

-gb-

What's maddening for Canon and JVC people is that it's working and released. Half of the deal was Apple releasing an updated HDV codec in the last ProApps update, along with 5.1.1.

In other words, there is now 1080p24 HDV working in FCP. tim mentioned some time ago that the updated HDV codec also allows you now to create 720p24 HDV files.

There is a working 1080p24 HDV Codec, but none for 720p24 HDV which is quite weird.

I just tested this. You now CAN make a 720p24 HDV file now using MPEGSTREAMCLIP. I just did it. Plays back in FCP just perfectly.

Take a look:

I have to disagree with your take on this Steve. As far as I can tell, no one here has claimed that it would be released soon, only that we hope it will be released soon. As I said in my original NAB report, there is no ETA.

You may have "insider" information from an Apple exec that you spoke to, and therefore your insight into the situation is clearer than ours. However, let's look at what we know (other than the inside take you just informed us of.)

We were all the JVC press event and booth at NAB (you, me, Nate, & Chris Hurd) and we all witnessed JVC's marketing, using the present tense, not future tense, clearly stating that 720P24 native support was now available in FCP 5.1.

You can visit JVC's website and watch Rodney Charters talk about how HD100 24P footage can now be captured in FCP via firewire. This was quicktime was posted two days before NAB started!

It seems clear to me the JVC marketing department was fully expecting Apple to release the JVC 24P update at NAB, and were very surprised that they only demoed it.

I was also very surprised and upset because Apple generally never previews new features in a pro app without releasing them shortly thereafter. This whole situation is very strange. I have no inside information so I can't speculate on what is actually going on behind closed doors. My conversations were with the Apple rep on the floor demoing the 24P functionality. His take was that the update would be a small downloadable one for FCP 5.1. Yes, he did mention that they "hacked" the 720P30 HDV codec to create the 720P24 codec, but this is irrelevent to the end user.

BTW, the version being demoed at NAB was listed in "About" as "FCP 5.1+ NAB Preview."

You are using the 720/30P Codec. Are you then just putting in the desired frame rate and the pulldown is correct?

Yes, I'm aware :-)

Well, you know there IS no pulldown. I tested it by bringing a HD100 24p m2t into MPEGSTREAMCLIP, and exporting unscaled, 720p30 HDV codec, but specifying the 23.98 framerate. MPEGSTREAMCLIP then ignores the repeat flags in the m2t and ames a frame for frame recompress into a Quicktime HDV file at 23.98. Too bad it's a recompress.

I decided to try this because I knew the HDV codec had just been updated in the last ProApps update, and that there's only ONE codec for both 1080 and 720 HDV, and 1080p24 HDV was a documented update in the new HDV codec.

Er, that and the fact Tim had mentioned it worked :-)

I find all of this very interesting. Both Apple and Avid were on the JVC stand at IBC last September in force. They were both promising full HDV1 support 'soon' or 'within weeks'. Someone at Avid recently told me that it had been forced lower down the priority scale at the beginning of 2006 because of other more urgent projects. I think it is distinctly fishy that native HDV1 support on AXPro/MC/Symphony and FCP is pretty much identical (30fps only) nearly a year later.

As to Steve's comment about Edius and Liquid leaving AXPro and FCP behind - it's obviously true as far as support for HDV1 media is concerned but I'm not so sure that's either an objective or a sensible viewpoint in general.

I've been testing Liquid for a month. For Avid's target market, it -- with some better documentation -- does damn near anything anyone would want to do with DV and HDV. Including built-in HD DVI output to an HD monitor. I'm blown away!

I'm just starting to test EDIUS 4, but it too looks very, very good. The only thing it is missing is a built DVD creation function that does menus.

Of course, both apps will need to be upgraded to support Bluray burners.

FCP now looks to be no more than a pretty Premiere 6.5.

Try this link:

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/newsletters/

IT'S FREE!

That's a scary thought, Steve. But you may be right. The workflow with PP 2.0 and Cineform (or not; I hear you don't even need to have Cineform these days, although I haven't checked it out) is so much easier than FCP. A couple of weeks ago, I was seriously considering getting a core duo MacBook Pro; now I'm starting to check out PCs instead...

Keith, gotta disagree on this. Have you tried to work on substantial (30 minutes or more) amount of footage on Premiere? My experience is that it chokes on HDV (no Cineform, I don't need to buy Cineform for FCP) for anything longer than a few minutes (30 fps). If you add something like Magic Bullet the rendering times can go to a horrendous 45 hours, for 30 minutes, while it takes 3-5 hours on FCP with my old PowerBook G4 1.67Ghz. The Premiere version used a dual Pentium 3.2Ghx with Matrox hardware. We just tested the MacBook Pro dual core and the way FCP renders so many effects in real time, in 1080i, is just amazing.
Sure 24p is not out yet but I'm sure that when it comes out it will be beautiful and the added time in converting with MPEG Streamclip (in batch mode BTW) is much shorter than 45 hours. BTW, the multicamera editing in FCP is fenomenal, way better than the Premiere implementation. We use 2 cameras for every episode of "2nd Unit" and that feature alone would sell me on FCP if I didn't use it already.

Just my $0.02

Well, I certainly agree that both Liquid and Edius have their selling points and Edius, in particular, looks very promising if GVG continue to develop it. However, I wouldn't even consider using Edius or Liquid for serious, long-form cutting. I would argue that they both have a long way to go before they'll tempt me away from Avid AXPro/MC or FCP. Now I'm sure that Edius and Liquid are great for certain uses and I'm not saying they are no good or that they don't have certain obvious advantages - I simply contend that it is midleading to those who are less experienced to suggest those applications are even close to making Avid/FCP redundant for most editors out there. Frankly, I wish it were true because I'd love to jump ship to something like Edius and leave the arrogance of Avid behind but we've tested Edius thoroughly and found it lacking in many respects.

Thanks Antony, as a long-time Canopus user I appreciate your candidness. I'm very interested in what you found to be lacking in Edius. Perhaps you can put that into a new thread in our HD Post category if you're so inclined. Thanks in advance,

Paolo,

Thanks for those insights. I haven't done any long-form editing yet on PP 2.0. We're cutting 18 hours of HD100 footage on FCP right now, and the editing is going smoothly; but getting the footage to where we could edit it was a nightmare. It took about 2.5 hours per hour of footage just to dump it. That's my main concern right now. Have you found any shortcuts?

So, if I'm editing something shot on 24p on FCP, what's the best workaround these days?

I think it is easier to Capture with DVHSCap and then Transcode to HDV 720/30P with a timebase of 23.98 in MPEG STREAMCLIP. It works fine in Final Cut Pro and costs no money. Also, MPEG STREAMCLIP has a great Batch Conform option so you can do every clip at once. Also, In and Out Points can be selected so you don't have to capture excess space.

No shortcuts for 24fcp but basically I acquire the clips via DVRack or HDVxDV or DVHSCap and start the conersion via MPEG Streamclip. as soon as a file is ready I import it in FCP and start analyzing it while the other clips are converting in the background. It's my experience that you have to allocate some time to convert the footage from HDV to some intermediate format anyway.
Premiere doesn't allow you to set the rendering encoder for the sequence, something that I got used to in FCP. In tests that I performed for HDV footage, rendering and exporting using AIC is several times faster than HDV even when FCP can edit the native HDV format (30fps).
For example, exporting a QT reference file, to use in Compressor, takes 1 minute for 30/40 minutes of footage. Using the original HDV clips I was unable to do the same. I stopped FCP when the estimated time was 3 hours. It took me about 1 hour to convert the sequence in AIC and then a minute to export it :)
I love this level of control. I called the Adobe tech support just to verify that I didn't miss anything and they confirmed that Premiere doesn't allows you to alter the codec used for rendering :(

Paolo, to be sure I understand what you are trying to say here... you mean that PPro does not let you work with a lower sampled version of the encoded file for editing...? Or you mean directly that when encoding/digitizing to HDV for edit you have no options/settings for the HDV format that they provide? If the last statment is closer to what you mean then this is also why many of us have invested in the Aspect HD method for encoding (even still, not without it's trade-offs, it's a blessed curse).

Long form editing can be done with PPro 2 but don't expect to do so without something like Aspect HD (theres that A word again). We might see better native HDV support from Adobe around the time FCP gets 24P editing native. ;)

Have you tried to use Liquid in long form? I, like Chris with Edius, have many years experience with Liquid and long form projects and very complex timelines. Please tell about your hands on experience with these products. Where were these products lacking? We cut on Media Composer Adrenalin, FCP and Liquid. Liquid and MCA get used most. Liquid gets HD duty and MCG gets SD duty.

In FCP I can have a sequence with HDV for input and then I can select whatever codec I want for the rendering. Each codec has pros/cons. AIC is what I use the most because is fast at rendering and preserves quality nicely. HDV, as we know, is not designed to be an editing codec. Apple and Adobe and others have worked around the GOP problem but it's still harder and more processor intensive than transcoding to something like AIC.
The Cineform codec is fine but it costs as much as another copy of FCP. If I buy a professional NLE I expect that NLE to give me reasonable support for the current formats.
We just bought a MacBookPro + FCP and we got our out-of-the-box-HD-editing-station without adding anything else. Turn on the machine, install the software, edit. No add-on cards, no nonsense. I like that :)

BTW, just to be clear, FCP had 24p editing for a while, it just doesn't have HDV 24fps editing and acquisition. Exactly because of the many options of codecs supported for edting and rendering, it's very easy to edit 24fps footage. You just have to work a bit for the "ingestion" phase :)

Hope this helps.

Actually I think the best frame rate to enter in MPEGStreamclip is 23.976. This will continue to export "real" frames over a couple of cuts whereas 23.98 often slips into 1/2 the frame rate.

Once I found that MPEGStreamclip could do batch exporting, I've stopped being so frustrated w/ the 24p workflow with FCP. There is an extra step (transcoding), but it's not so bad for a free option. I'm looking forward to the Apple solution, though. Just to clarify, they're going to make it so that it skips the repeated frames, right? Just making sure. There's no reason to import 60 frames/sec when you only want 24.

Never! Apple won't release the 720/24p patch because market research has proven that it is more beneficial to wait until the next version of FCP.

We did this to ourselves. If everyone hadn’t been so vocal about 24p support, Apple would have simply given the upgrade to us for free as a routine software patch. They’ve had the ability to do this for quite some time. Now they know how hungry we are for 24p and they are using this to their advantage.

So in other words... what you would like to see is the AIC better supported within Premiere on a PC, that would make it a better overall editing solution. I'm not sure I see the point since the AIC should be faster and run better on a Mac, hence the name. But if that's the format of choice then that explains your solution. It's funny however that we use Aspect HD for the very same reason, "because it's fast at rendering and preserve quality nicely". By the way, I can also render out to a slew of other formats at render including MOV, AVI, FLV, WMV, so how exactly this is limited I'm unsure.

As for the additional cost of Aspect HD... I too wish it was included and that Adobe would get off their butts and license the technology so that new users can go straight to work without an additional expense. I could not agree more Paolo. Regardless it works and we use it for both edit and export.

I both like and respect you Paolo, So please don't take my questions and position to personal or close to the heart. You have taken the time to share the setup with your HD100, and that has contributed to our company shooting better video, so my hats off to you. However I can't help but feel that you might be more than just a little biased in your chosen workflow. When you know as well as I that no one system is supreme and without fault. Right down to the hardware it's run on. It's how you mold the clay in front of you. Tools come, go, break and change only the cycle never changes.

Peace, back on topic :)

Hey Daniel.
Be asured that I don't take criticism personally. I always assume that we are adults talking our heart here with max respect for everybody's opinions.
I worked both on Premiere and FCP and so I believe I gained enough knowledge, if no experience, to judge both systems impartially and I have to say that FCP comes out as the more professional tool. Not much as features but as overall design (UI) and robustness.
Regarding my bias toward Macs, I have to say that it doesn't exists. I started with the original IBM PC (4.77Mhx 8088), I tried every single OS for PCs, including OS/2 and Linux. I built my own PCs that still run today, after 9 years. The Mac is a different thing. You have to experience it to understand. Kinda like sex :)

Regarding the rendering in Premiere, no there is no option for internal rendering of effects like transitions, plugins etc with a codec different than the input one. What you refer to is not rendering but exporting. That is another step that I find sorely lacking compared to the options provided by Apple Compressor. Both as fine tuning of the codecs available and the number of codecs provided. Not to mention the fact that Compressor frees FCP from that task and that I can use dstributed processing to work on a *batch* (as opposed to a single task) of compressions. For example, I can send a single job that takes care of compressing my footage into wmv, H.264 1/2 res and MPG4 for the iPod. All this in the background while I keep editing. On a laptop.
:)

I don't mean to be disparaging of Premiere. It's a fine product for short videos and SD work. In my experience it's just not as advanced as FCP. That's all.

And yes, let's keep the peace :)

No, we haven't tested Liquid thoroughly - just Edius. Years ago, we were impressed by Fast products but dropped the idea of moving over the instant Pinnacle bought them. Now that Avid have them, my guess is they'll either disappear or be lodged firmly at the pro-sumer level, which is a terrible shame. Of course, I could be wrong about that but my misgivings are considerable enough not to bother with it for now. As to Edius, I'd like to make it clear that I have always been a big fan of Canopus products and I am delighted that Edius is on the up and up. That is precisely why I volunteered to help develop Edius with beta testing. IMHO, it's good and it is useable but I wouldn't swap it for MC - yet... FOR OUR PURPOSES, the Avid interface offers us the best solution for long-form broadcast offline, with regard to media management, flexibility and depth of the UI, system stability, upgrade options, codecs (particularly DNx) and interface with facility houses for online work at any level. If we were cutting pieces for output straight to DVD, or doing anything approaching challenging effects I'm sure I'd feel very differently.

Anyway, I certainly did not mean to offend any committed users of Liquid or Edius. I'm glad they work for you guys - and I'm extremely glad they support HDV1 properly!

Hard drive space
 

This discussion has been extremely helpful. Here's my capturing/editing workflow-

-shoot with HD100A at 24fps
-capture to my Firestore FS4 and to tape
-copy transport streams from FS4 to my Apple G5
-use MPEGStreamclip to convert the transport streams to my editing codec

which up until lately has been AIC. I'm now considering using the method on this thread to create HDV 24p *.MOV files. Why? to conserve hard drive space. Right now for each piece of video I'm placing a 19mbps(?) transport stream and a 100mbps AIC file on my machine; it would be great to bump it down to 19mbps for the MOV files too. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

No offense taken at all, Antony; just very interested in your feedback. Many thanks!

Yes, it will work like 30P (Which creates a 29.97 files), the 24P will create a 23.98 file. The 60 Frames though are different than on DV. They are only Repeat flags not extra frames.

Keith

You're forgetting that PPRO 2 has just caught up with FCP 5.

I know. I use both daily. FCP is always my preference. And I'm not an Apple freak. I have a selection of mac's and PC's. FCP just seems more... its hard to describe... powerful or complete when I'm using it. Premiere frustrates me a little. IMHO

Andrew

Chris and I have been Canopus NLE fans from the days of StormDV. EDIUS 4 certainly seems to have almost everything -- although I expect like most editors I would also use Photoshop and AE. Nothing new here as I think most folks use these Adobe products.

Liquid has everything. I finished a project and in an hour I coverted it to Dolby 5.1. This week I'll try going from 720p30 HDV to a letterboxed PAL DVD "automatically."

Bottom-line -- for the next decade we'll be inter-mixing SD and HD, 4:3 and 16:9. That need is why I think Apple is re-engineering FCP internally.

[QUOTE=Antony Michael WilsonAnyway, I certainly did not mean to offend any committed users of Liquid or Edius. I'm glad they work for you guys - and I'm extremely glad they support HDV1 properly![/QUOTE]

Note that I qualified my comments about Liquid to Avid's NOT consumer market. It is focused on the fully independent guy/gal who shoots DV and HDV and releases on DVD -- and will release on Bluray. Plus a range of SD and HD tapes. Folks who want to learn ONE application that does everything.

EDIUS is clearly aimed at those who work in Broadcast as well as the independent. Therefore it supports all the SD and HD news and doc. formats. Very clean interface. Only wish it DD 5.1 built-in plus at least an iDVD level DVD creation capability. Again, for folks who want to learn ONE application that does most everything.

I'm not sure either replaces a Composer or FCP with hardware. But, I think many of us are now only using laptops and IEEE 1394. We are obviously NOT interested in uncompressed HD!

I suspect this is the growth area for the next few years.