Firestore FS-C various topics

Harry Bromley-Davenport · August 3rd, 2007, 09:40 PM

Oh, and Michael - I was running tape simultaneously and the fault was NOT recorded to tape. So I am tending to rule out a camera fault. What do you think?

Thanks for the reply.

Harry

John Mitchell · August 16th, 2007, 03:40 AM

It seems more likely corruption in the firewire stream.

All the unit does is record the digital data being fed down the cable and sometimes some processing to put it in a quicktime or avi wrapper.

It never get's converted back to analogue (until you play it back on your monitor).

You have to ask yourself some questions:

1. Did it happen every time this dark to light scenario occurred? Or was it intermittent?
2. Did it happen at any other time during the recording?
3. Was the hard drive subject to any violent knock, coincidentally at the same time (less likely)?
4. Could the camera itself have a fault that is post the tape section in the camera i.e. does a sudden change in auto iris cause disruption to the power section of the camera that is on the same circuit as the firewire output board?

I know if you blow the firewire output on your camera it can still record to tape so the signal originates from the same place but is routed separately.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for Focus - I think these units are fundamentally flawed as field units - they simply aren't rugged enough to stand up to daily field use. In this case however it seems unlikely that the unit itself is at fault.

Harry Bromley-Davenport · August 16th, 2007, 08:56 AM

John,

Thanks for your reply.

The firewire stream coming out of the camera seems to be ok, because I have test recorded direct to the computer via firewire and the fault is not present.

To answer your other questions: Yes, it does happen on every occasion, and also the unit did not receive any violent shock at any time of which I was aware.

There is now a person at Focus who is trying to be consiferably more helpful and I am running a series of tests for them.

In any case, many thanks for your input and help.

Harry

Ben Waller · November 5th, 2007, 01:31 PM

So, after reading many posts written in December of last year, I wanted to check up again. Right now, is there a FS-C model that will record in Quicktime 24f, with a Canon XH-A1, and work easily with FCP 5? If there is, please direct me, and anyone else who is interested, to the website where we can finally purchase it.

Thanks!

Josh Laronge · November 5th, 2007, 01:41 PM

According to the Focus Enhancements website, the FS-C model will.

Terry Martin · November 9th, 2007, 02:30 PM

I had the opportunity to test a Firestore FS-C, and would like to report the following observations.

First, the usefulness of any piece of hardware depends on how you intend to use it. In my case, I am interested in a “backup” medium to use in case of the occasional HDV tape dropout, as well as during tape changes. My work centers around stage performances (music and ballet), and I need at least one camera to capture an unbroken time line.

I understand that the FS-C is great if you want to shoot 24P/F and edit in FCP, but I am currently happy just shooting 1080 /60i HDV to tape.

My first test was to connect the FS-C to a Canon A1, and operate the firestore in “manual” record mode. I then recorded to tape on the camera, stopped, ejected the tape, and reengaged the tape to resume recording. There were no problems connecting the firestore to the camera or to the computer.

The test clips were imported into an Avid 1080iHDV project (ver 5.2.4), but most of them would not open in the source monitor with the following error:

Audio PMM_insufficient_media()
Player version is longer than actual

I could get a working clip into Avid if it did not involve start/stop and tape change operations.

Explanation: I followed up by doing the same test with a Canon HV20 recording in from the A1 firewire output. Turns out that the A1 firewire output drops a few frames when the camera goes into and out of record mode. So I conclude that the A1 breaks the firewire stream at these two points, and the FS-C responds by starting a new file, but with a somewhat “nonstandard” file format. (Note that Avid is very “picky”)

For those interested, the same glitch happens when the A1 is recorded to a laptop using HDVsplit. The file, however, is not broken around the glitch, and will import just fine into Avid. It is then possible to edit up to each side of the glitch and save all but about 1 second of the shot.

So the next logical test was to use the FS-C in “syncro” mode where it responds to the camera start and stop controls. Results were much more reliable… except, if the tape is spun down when record is engaged. The startup delay generates one of the glitches, and you get a 9 min “droupout”.

For the record, I tested the ability of Avid to join the 9 min segments, and yes, it did loose one or two frames. For a solution just look at: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85791
The copy /b solution works just fine in Avid with no lost media.

I also tried direct capture to Avid, but although the video made it into the capture monitor, Avid seemed to think it couldn’t control the deck, and would not actually capture anything. (Newbee alert: I may not know how to properly configure Avid, but I tried.)

Battery Life: Had no problem with battery life, estimating 6 to 7 hours of continuous use…. but then again I did not use the firestore battery. I am really pleased with Tekkeon MP3450 batteries: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16855997152
I did not even try the included battery, just ran it from the tekkeon.

Conclusion: the price/usefulness factor of the FS-C is too high for my simple “backup” requirements. If someone wants to shoot 24P tapeless for FCP, then the FS-C should be perfect. The potential 9 min “droupouts” can be avoided, but it adds the possibility for error if you don’t notice a tape spinning down.
Currently I am considering either getting the cheapest FS-4 or even another Canon HV20, which would make a firewire clone recording on a second tape. In any event I will wait until just before I need it… perhaps one of you will come up with a better idea.

Frank Pitsikalis · November 10th, 2007, 04:11 PM

I just replaced the hard disk (40GB) on my FS-4 HD unit with a Fujitsu 120 GB (5400rpm,8mb,0.6A) and the unit booted up, asked me to partition the new drive and is now showing 610 min (over 10 hours!) available. Will likely almost double battery life as well as only draws 0.6A compared with 1.0A on the original oem hitachi drive.

Drive cost me 79 bucks.

K.C. Luke · November 10th, 2007, 08:04 PM

Hi Frank

This is great to see your FS-4HD upgrade to 120GB. You say:Will likely almost double battery life as well as only draws 0.6A compared with 1.0A on the original oem hitachi drive

Is that less power after upgrade? or double battery life?

Why I ask because I have FS-4HD, never buy the extra battery 180mins. The battery are very good as even without using 3 days, the battery did not loss any power. Is a great Direct-to-Disk (Tapeless) Recording.

Frank Pitsikalis · November 10th, 2007, 09:08 PM

Agreed. Great solution.

Yes...less power draw (40% less) so should have a proportional improvement in battery life.

Kelvin Kelm · November 12th, 2007, 11:26 AM

Frank, do you know the model number for the Fujitsu Drive? I just purchased a Fujitsu MHV2120-AH to use in my FS-4. Is that the same one you used?

Steve Capachietti · November 12th, 2007, 05:17 PM

Need help with Firestore FS-C missing files. Unit has worked great until now. I recorded the other day and went to input into FCP 6 and when I mounted drive , it shows no clips. The unit usually has 306 mins or so available when freshly formated. I noticed that FS-C show 260 mins available which leads me to believe that these clips did record and are there. One problem I noticed was I had camera set to DV and FS-C was set at HD Rec. Not sure if this would cause this. Please help. Need these clips. Also have file called FSCK0000.REC that i have not seen before. Did backup to tape, but I was to work on digital and friend has tape. Like to recover digital.Thanks Steve

Frank Pitsikalis · November 13th, 2007, 03:27 PM

Hey Kelvin...ya that was the one. Working great so far.

Jeremiah Rickert · November 25th, 2007, 07:11 PM

So are these IDE drives? I have a .8 mA 7200 RPM 200gb drive, but it's a SATA drive.

Thanks!

JR

Jeremiah Rickert · December 13th, 2007, 04:32 AM

Is there a way on a mac to "view hidden files" like there is in windows?

JR

Lee Nieman · January 26th, 2008, 10:38 PM

Well I got the Fujitsu 120 GB hard drive. I got it formatted. (a small challenge.. had to power off and on until it would go to 'found new drive format disk' option)
I'm not getting 610 minutes.
It says 520 minutes (NTSC)

Did I do something wrong?

November 5th, 2007, 01:31 PM	#124
Ben Waller New Boot Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 12	FS-C, Canon XH A1, FCP 5 So, after reading many posts written in December of last year, I wanted to check up again. Right now, is there a FS-C model that will record in Quicktime 24f, with a Canon XH-A1, and work easily with FCP 5? If there is, please direct me, and anyone else who is interested, to the website where we can finally purchase it. Thanks!

November 9th, 2007, 02:30 PM	#126
Terry Martin Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 100	Firestore FS-C Canon XHA1 and Avid I had the opportunity to test a Firestore FS-C, and would like to report the following observations. First, the usefulness of any piece of hardware depends on how you intend to use it. In my case, I am interested in a “backup” medium to use in case of the occasional HDV tape dropout, as well as during tape changes. My work centers around stage performances (music and ballet), and I need at least one camera to capture an unbroken time line. I understand that the FS-C is great if you want to shoot 24P/F and edit in FCP, but I am currently happy just shooting 1080 /60i HDV to tape. My first test was to connect the FS-C to a Canon A1, and operate the firestore in “manual” record mode. I then recorded to tape on the camera, stopped, ejected the tape, and reengaged the tape to resume recording. There were no problems connecting the firestore to the camera or to the computer. The test clips were imported into an Avid 1080iHDV project (ver 5.2.4), but most of them would not open in the source monitor with the following error: Audio PMM_insufficient_media() Player version is longer than actual I could get a working clip into Avid if it did not involve start/stop and tape change operations. Explanation: I followed up by doing the same test with a Canon HV20 recording in from the A1 firewire output. Turns out that the A1 firewire output drops a few frames when the camera goes into and out of record mode. So I conclude that the A1 breaks the firewire stream at these two points, and the FS-C responds by starting a new file, but with a somewhat “nonstandard” file format. (Note that Avid is very “picky”) For those interested, the same glitch happens when the A1 is recorded to a laptop using HDVsplit. The file, however, is not broken around the glitch, and will import just fine into Avid. It is then possible to edit up to each side of the glitch and save all but about 1 second of the shot. So the next logical test was to use the FS-C in “syncro” mode where it responds to the camera start and stop controls. Results were much more reliable… except, if the tape is spun down when record is engaged. The startup delay generates one of the glitches, and you get a 9 min “droupout”. For the record, I tested the ability of Avid to join the 9 min segments, and yes, it did loose one or two frames. For a solution just look at: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85791 The copy /b solution works just fine in Avid with no lost media. I also tried direct capture to Avid, but although the video made it into the capture monitor, Avid seemed to think it couldn’t control the deck, and would not actually capture anything. (Newbee alert: I may not know how to properly configure Avid, but I tried.) Battery Life: Had no problem with battery life, estimating 6 to 7 hours of continuous use…. but then again I did not use the firestore battery. I am really pleased with Tekkeon MP3450 batteries: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16855997152 I did not even try the included battery, just ran it from the tekkeon. Conclusion: the price/usefulness factor of the FS-C is too high for my simple “backup” requirements. If someone wants to shoot 24P tapeless for FCP, then the FS-C should be perfect. The potential 9 min “droupouts” can be avoided, but it adds the possibility for error if you don’t notice a tape spinning down. Currently I am considering either getting the cheapest FS-4 or even another Canon HV20, which would make a firewire clone recording on a second tape. In any event I will wait until just before I need it… perhaps one of you will come up with a better idea. Last edited by Terry Martin; November 9th, 2007 at 05:14 PM.

November 10th, 2007, 04:11 PM	#127
Frank Pitsikalis New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 23	Another simple FS-4 HD (40GB) upgrade to 120GB I just replaced the hard disk (40GB) on my FS-4 HD unit with a Fujitsu 120 GB (5400rpm,8mb,0.6A) and the unit booted up, asked me to partition the new drive and is now showing 610 min (over 10 hours!) available. Will likely almost double battery life as well as only draws 0.6A compared with 1.0A on the original oem hitachi drive. Drive cost me 79 bucks.

November 10th, 2007, 08:04 PM	#128
K.C. Luke Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 173	Hi Frank This is great to see your FS-4HD upgrade to 120GB. You say:Will likely almost double battery life as well as only draws 0.6A compared with 1.0A on the original oem hitachi drive Is that less power after upgrade? or double battery life? Why I ask because I have FS-4HD, never buy the extra battery 180mins. The battery are very good as even without using 3 days, the battery did not loss any power. Is a great Direct-to-Disk (Tapeless) Recording. __________________ Edit on Adobe Creative Suite Production Premium CS5 Mac 64BIT

November 12th, 2007, 11:26 AM	#130
Kelvin Kelm Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Katy, Texas Posts: 49	Model Number Frank, do you know the model number for the Fujitsu Drive? I just purchased a Fujitsu MHV2120-AH to use in my FS-4. Is that the same one you used?

August 3rd, 2007, 09:40 PM	#121
Harry Bromley-Davenport Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: LA CA Posts: 317	Oh, and Michael - I was running tape simultaneously and the fault was NOT recorded to tape. So I am tending to rule out a camera fault. What do you think? Thanks for the reply. Harry

August 16th, 2007, 03:40 AM	#122
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	It seems more likely corruption in the firewire stream. All the unit does is record the digital data being fed down the cable and sometimes some processing to put it in a quicktime or avi wrapper. It never get's converted back to analogue (until you play it back on your monitor). You have to ask yourself some questions: 1. Did it happen every time this dark to light scenario occurred? Or was it intermittent? 2. Did it happen at any other time during the recording? 3. Was the hard drive subject to any violent knock, coincidentally at the same time (less likely)? 4. Could the camera itself have a fault that is post the tape section in the camera i.e. does a sudden change in auto iris cause disruption to the power section of the camera that is on the same circuit as the firewire output board? I know if you blow the firewire output on your camera it can still record to tape so the signal originates from the same place but is routed separately. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Focus - I think these units are fundamentally flawed as field units - they simply aren't rugged enough to stand up to daily field use. In this case however it seems unlikely that the unit itself is at fault.

August 16th, 2007, 08:56 AM	#123
Harry Bromley-Davenport Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: LA CA Posts: 317	John, Thanks for your reply. The firewire stream coming out of the camera seems to be ok, because I have test recorded direct to the computer via firewire and the fault is not present. To answer your other questions: Yes, it does happen on every occasion, and also the unit did not receive any violent shock at any time of which I was aware. There is now a person at Focus who is trying to be consiferably more helpful and I am running a series of tests for them. In any case, many thanks for your input and help. Harry

November 5th, 2007, 01:41 PM	#125
Josh Laronge Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Jupiter, FL Posts: 241	According to the Focus Enhancements website, the FS-C model will.

November 10th, 2007, 09:08 PM	#129
Frank Pitsikalis New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 23	Agreed. Great solution. Yes...less power draw (40% less) so should have a proportional improvement in battery life.

November 12th, 2007, 05:17 PM	#131
Steve Capachietti Tourist Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Meredith,NH Posts: 1	FS-C missing files Need help with Firestore FS-C missing files. Unit has worked great until now. I recorded the other day and went to input into FCP 6 and when I mounted drive , it shows no clips. The unit usually has 306 mins or so available when freshly formated. I noticed that FS-C show 260 mins available which leads me to believe that these clips did record and are there. One problem I noticed was I had camera set to DV and FS-C was set at HD Rec. Not sure if this would cause this. Please help. Need these clips. Also have file called FSCK0000.REC that i have not seen before. Did backup to tape, but I was to work on digital and friend has tape. Like to recover digital.Thanks Steve Last edited by Steve Capachietti; November 12th, 2007 at 06:02 PM.

November 13th, 2007, 03:27 PM	#132
Frank Pitsikalis New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 23	Hey Kelvin...ya that was the one. Working great so far.

November 25th, 2007, 07:11 PM	#133
Jeremiah Rickert Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Newberg, Oregon Posts: 494	Drives... So are these IDE drives? I have a .8 mA 7200 RPM 200gb drive, but it's a SATA drive. Thanks! JR

December 13th, 2007, 04:32 AM	#134
Jeremiah Rickert Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Newberg, Oregon Posts: 494	hidden? Is there a way on a mac to "view hidden files" like there is in windows? JR

January 26th, 2008, 10:38 PM	#135
Lee Nieman Tourist Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1	Well I got the Fujitsu 120 GB hard drive. I got it formatted. (a small challenge.. had to power off and on until it would go to 'found new drive format disk' option) I'm not getting 610 minutes. It says 520 minutes (NTSC) Did I do something wrong?