so is ther a final word on FX1 vs HD10U yet? at DVinfo.net

Mark Paschke · December 2nd, 2004, 06:57 PM

Just curious if those that have both have discovered an Honest +'s and -'s comparison yet.

Ive searched for a thread and have not found one

Darren Kelly · December 2nd, 2004, 09:41 PM

Well, it all depends on how youlook at it.

Taking the downrez'd FX1 to 1280X720, I think they are comperable.

Taking the HD1 and stretching it to 1080i, I think the FX1 shines.

You can see more on the DVD, if you are interested.

DBK

Steve Crisdale · December 3rd, 2004, 04:20 AM

Plusses of the FX1 over the HD10u for me are:

1) Low-light capability is vastly superior.

2) Manual control of ALL the major settings - something the HD10 just hasn't got.

3) Low noise.

4) Higher bit-rate and resolution of 1080i stream giving cleaner crisper image, and superior end result (sorry Darren; but that's just what I'm seeing!!) when downconverted to DVD level.

5) Balance and handling - the FX1 is, in my experience anyway, less demanding to hand-hold for longer periods of time than the HD10, with the zoom toggle rocker being smoother and easier to operate.

6) The on-camera microphone delivers a mighty fine audio signal. I recorded a live performance last night, and I was wary of the audio, but played back through my surround amp the audio was easier for me to take than the live performance (better balanced) without heavy clipping to achieve it, and amazing clarity - every cymbal note, every bass hammer and thump, vocal, lead riff and drum flam clear natural and clean.

Without adding this as an extra point, but worthy anyway is the battery life on the standard supplied FX1 battery.

Hope this clarifies a little what one HD10u owner has found as benefits from purchasing an FX1.......

Miguel Lombana · December 3rd, 2004, 08:16 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : Plusses of the FX1 over the HD10u for me are:

6) The on-camera microphone delivers a mighty fine audio signal. I recorded a live performance last night, and I was wary of the audio, but played back through my surround amp the audio was easier for me to take than the live performance (better balanced) without heavy clipping to achieve it, and amazing clarity - every cymbal note, every bass hammer and thump, vocal, lead riff and drum flam clear natural and clean.

Steve since you're a user and I'm considering picking up a new unit for the holiday, what are you using to edit the FX1 footage that you shoot?

I'm a Gl2 shooter and edit with Premier Pro 1.5 via a Canopus Raptor Card for realtime and was curious to know what solution you've opted to use for the editing. Also did the cam come with any editing package for HD.

Thanks in advance,
Miguel

Steve Crisdale · December 3rd, 2004, 05:28 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Miguel Lombana : <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : Plusses of the FX1 over the HD10u for me are:

6) The on-camera microphone delivers a mighty fine audio signal. I recorded a live performance last night, and I was wary of the audio, but played back through my surround amp the audio was easier for me to take than the live performance (better balanced) without heavy clipping to achieve it, and amazing clarity - every cymbal note, every bass hammer and thump, vocal, lead riff and drum flam clear natural and clean.

Steve since you're a user and I'm considering picking up a new unit for the holiday, what are you using to edit the FX1 footage that you shoot?

I'm a Gl2 shooter and edit with Premier Pro 1.5 via a Canopus Raptor Card for realtime and was curious to know what solution you've opted to use for the editing. Also did the cam come with any editing package for HD.

Thanks in advance,
Miguel -->>>

I use Vegas 5 for editing both FX1 and HD10 material. You can use Premiere Pro 1.5 as well - it's just a case of which you prefer really..... I did purchase ConnectHD to allow easier FX1 capture, and to speed up editing via the CFHD avi based codec.

The FX1 doesn't have any supplied software.

If you check in the HDV Editing thread you'll see that there are plenty of HDV capable appz for capture and editing besides those from the 'major' software houses.

Steve Crisdale · December 3rd, 2004, 06:39 PM

I forgot one other major plus of the FX1 over the HD10....

The FX1 does output it's 1080i captures from tape via component.

The HD10, despite the somewhat misleading graphic on one of their promo pamphlets showing what could be ouput of recorded material to HDTV/monitor via component, will only monitor live recording via component. In effect, the HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing.

Mark Paschke · December 3rd, 2004, 08:19 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : I forgot one other major plus of the FX1 over the HD10....

The FX1 does output it's 1080i captures from tape via component.

The HD10, despite the somewhat misleading graphic on one of their promo pamphlets showing what could be ouput of recorded material to HDTV/monitor via component, will only monitor live recording via component. In effect, the HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing. -->>>

Then how do you watch it in HD on a TV? are you saying I have never seen what this camera can do by using the camera or VHCu1 to play tapes on my HDTV?

Heath McKnight · December 3rd, 2004, 08:39 PM

I'm selling mine to pay off my lease and buy an FX1!

heath

Graham Hickling · December 3rd, 2004, 10:15 PM

>> HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing.

Are you sure about that???

It certainly LOOKS like an HD signal to me, played back on my 46" RPTV. But then I dont have any other HD sources to directly compare it with so I suppose I could be imagining things.

Um....

Heath McKnight · December 3rd, 2004, 10:52 PM

In Videography, they describe the Hd10 best--it's the camera, NOT the HDV format.

The FX1 is clean, no chroma noise--stuff in the shadows (not too hard, but I'll test that next) looks great!

heath

Steve Crisdale · December 4th, 2004, 05:44 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling : >> HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing.

Are you sure about that???

It certainly LOOKS like an HD signal to me, played back on my 46" RPTV. But then I dont have any other HD sources to directly compare it with so I suppose I could be imagining things.

Um.... -->>>

All I know is, when I connect the component cable (LCD view screen must be open to do so) from HD10 to component in on HDTV, and set camera mode to play-back (I'm certain there's no other mode for viewing what's on tape from the camera) and press Play; the message displayed on the cameras LCD is "cannot display image in this mode". Needless to say there's no image on the HDTV

However, if the camera is set to record then the HDTV becomes an excellent monitor in 720p of exactly what the camera is pointing at.

Now, unless my HD10u has a connection problem - it was sent back for repair of a faulty CCD, so who knows if the techs who'd never seen a HD10 before booffed something up - the only way to access the taped footage at 720p that I've found is to capture and playback via a HD Mediaplayer with a 10/100 LAN connection. Of course if I had one of the JVC decks I would be able to use them for viewing the footage, but I didn't need another device to clutter up the already expansive collection of boxes!!!

Otherwise the composite connector must be used from the camera to the HDTV and that only provides 480p.

I've tried this over and over and over.....and nearly sent myself round the twist because I couldn't believe that I couldn't get the component connection to play back taped material.

The VHCu1 should work fine as it's designed specifically for such playback. I would have considered purchasing one but for the cost and the impending release of the FX1, so I invested in the Sony cam in preference, and I'm overwhelmingly glad I did.

Besides, the FX1 can playback the HD10 tapes for me to see what the HD10 itself couldn't show me!!!

Ken Hodson · December 4th, 2004, 01:31 PM

This is kind of funny because you seem to have it backwards.

"However, if the camera is set to record then the HDTV becomes an excellent monitor in 720p of exactly what the camera is pointing at. "

When outputing video live from the cam via component out, it is fully uncompressed and only in SD 480p even when your recording in HD (it may look HD to you)It will not output HD via component while recording. At anytime you can view HD from tape via component out to HDTV. I have no idea what is wrong with your cam.

Ken Hodson · December 4th, 2004, 01:32 PM

"so is ther a final word on FX1 vs HD10U yet? "

Darren. I thought you were using an HD1?

Graham Hickling · December 5th, 2004, 01:35 AM

>>>> the message displayed on the cameras LCD is "cannot display image in this mode". Needless to say there's no image on the HDTV.
>>>>

Yep, that's exactly what mine shows on the LCD too - while sending a signal to my HDTV! That message is just a reminder that the camera can't display to the LCD while simultaneously displaying to an external monitor via component.

So I think there's definitely something amiss with your camera, cables, or monitor input settings .... hopefully something simple and/or cheap to resolve.

Tom Roper · December 5th, 2004, 03:14 AM

The only way you can view actual 720p from the HD1 is recorded tape playback. The live monitor output as stated by Ken and Graham is only 480p.

December 2nd, 2004, 06:57 PM	#1
Mark Paschke Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Willamette Valley OR Posts: 90	so is ther a final word on FX1 vs HD10U yet? Just curious if those that have both have discovered an Honest +'s and -'s comparison yet. Ive searched for a thread and have not found one

December 2nd, 2004, 09:41 PM	#2
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	Well, it all depends on how youlook at it. Taking the downrez'd FX1 to 1280X720, I think they are comperable. Taking the HD1 and stretching it to 1080i, I think the FX1 shines. You can see more on the DVD, if you are interested. DBK __________________ Darren Kelly

December 3rd, 2004, 08:16 AM	#4
Miguel Lombana Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Litchfield Park, AZ (W/of Phoenix) Posts: 502	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : Plusses of the FX1 over the HD10u for me are: 6) The on-camera microphone delivers a mighty fine audio signal. I recorded a live performance last night, and I was wary of the audio, but played back through my surround amp the audio was easier for me to take than the live performance (better balanced) without heavy clipping to achieve it, and amazing clarity - every cymbal note, every bass hammer and thump, vocal, lead riff and drum flam clear natural and clean. Steve since you're a user and I'm considering picking up a new unit for the holiday, what are you using to edit the FX1 footage that you shoot? I'm a Gl2 shooter and edit with Premier Pro 1.5 via a Canopus Raptor Card for realtime and was curious to know what solution you've opted to use for the editing. Also did the cam come with any editing package for HD. Thanks in advance, Miguel __________________ Miguel Lombana http://www.miguellombana.com & http://www.phoenixhamradio.com

December 3rd, 2004, 08:39 PM	#8
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I'm selling mine to pay off my lease and buy an FX1! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

December 3rd, 2004, 10:52 PM	#10
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	In Videography, they describe the Hd10 best--it's the camera, NOT the HDV format. The FX1 is clean, no chroma noise--stuff in the shadows (not too hard, but I'll test that next) looks great! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

December 3rd, 2004, 04:20 AM	#3
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	Plusses of the FX1 over the HD10u for me are: 1) Low-light capability is vastly superior. 2) Manual control of ALL the major settings - something the HD10 just hasn't got. 3) Low noise. 4) Higher bit-rate and resolution of 1080i stream giving cleaner crisper image, and superior end result (sorry Darren; but that's just what I'm seeing!!) when downconverted to DVD level. 5) Balance and handling - the FX1 is, in my experience anyway, less demanding to hand-hold for longer periods of time than the HD10, with the zoom toggle rocker being smoother and easier to operate. 6) The on-camera microphone delivers a mighty fine audio signal. I recorded a live performance last night, and I was wary of the audio, but played back through my surround amp the audio was easier for me to take than the live performance (better balanced) without heavy clipping to achieve it, and amazing clarity - every cymbal note, every bass hammer and thump, vocal, lead riff and drum flam clear natural and clean. Without adding this as an extra point, but worthy anyway is the battery life on the standard supplied FX1 battery. Hope this clarifies a little what one HD10u owner has found as benefits from purchasing an FX1.......

December 3rd, 2004, 05:28 PM	#5
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	<<<-- Originally posted by Miguel Lombana : <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : Plusses of the FX1 over the HD10u for me are: 6) The on-camera microphone delivers a mighty fine audio signal. I recorded a live performance last night, and I was wary of the audio, but played back through my surround amp the audio was easier for me to take than the live performance (better balanced) without heavy clipping to achieve it, and amazing clarity - every cymbal note, every bass hammer and thump, vocal, lead riff and drum flam clear natural and clean. Steve since you're a user and I'm considering picking up a new unit for the holiday, what are you using to edit the FX1 footage that you shoot? I'm a Gl2 shooter and edit with Premier Pro 1.5 via a Canopus Raptor Card for realtime and was curious to know what solution you've opted to use for the editing. Also did the cam come with any editing package for HD. Thanks in advance, Miguel -->>> I use Vegas 5 for editing both FX1 and HD10 material. You can use Premiere Pro 1.5 as well - it's just a case of which you prefer really..... I did purchase ConnectHD to allow easier FX1 capture, and to speed up editing via the CFHD avi based codec. The FX1 doesn't have any supplied software. If you check in the HDV Editing thread you'll see that there are plenty of HDV capable appz for capture and editing besides those from the 'major' software houses.

December 3rd, 2004, 06:39 PM	#6
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	I forgot one other major plus of the FX1 over the HD10.... The FX1 does output it's 1080i captures from tape via component. The HD10, despite the somewhat misleading graphic on one of their promo pamphlets showing what could be ouput of recorded material to HDTV/monitor via component, will only monitor live recording via component. In effect, the HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing.

December 3rd, 2004, 08:19 PM	#7
Mark Paschke Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Willamette Valley OR Posts: 90	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : I forgot one other major plus of the FX1 over the HD10.... The FX1 does output it's 1080i captures from tape via component. The HD10, despite the somewhat misleading graphic on one of their promo pamphlets showing what could be ouput of recorded material to HDTV/monitor via component, will only monitor live recording via component. In effect, the HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing. -->>> Then how do you watch it in HD on a TV? are you saying I have never seen what this camera can do by using the camera or VHCu1 to play tapes on my HDTV?

December 3rd, 2004, 10:15 PM	#9
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	>> HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing. Are you sure about that??? It certainly LOOKS like an HD signal to me, played back on my 46" RPTV. But then I dont have any other HD sources to directly compare it with so I suppose I could be imagining things. Um....

December 4th, 2004, 05:44 AM	#11
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling : >> HD10 can't show it's recorded HD PQ direct from the camera to a HDTV/monitor, which is very disappointing. Are you sure about that??? It certainly LOOKS like an HD signal to me, played back on my 46" RPTV. But then I dont have any other HD sources to directly compare it with so I suppose I could be imagining things. Um.... -->>> All I know is, when I connect the component cable (LCD view screen must be open to do so) from HD10 to component in on HDTV, and set camera mode to play-back (I'm certain there's no other mode for viewing what's on tape from the camera) and press Play; the message displayed on the cameras LCD is "cannot display image in this mode". Needless to say there's no image on the HDTV However, if the camera is set to record then the HDTV becomes an excellent monitor in 720p of exactly what the camera is pointing at. Now, unless my HD10u has a connection problem - it was sent back for repair of a faulty CCD, so who knows if the techs who'd never seen a HD10 before booffed something up - the only way to access the taped footage at 720p that I've found is to capture and playback via a HD Mediaplayer with a 10/100 LAN connection. Of course if I had one of the JVC decks I would be able to use them for viewing the footage, but I didn't need another device to clutter up the already expansive collection of boxes!!! Otherwise the composite connector must be used from the camera to the HDTV and that only provides 480p. I've tried this over and over and over.....and nearly sent myself round the twist because I couldn't believe that I couldn't get the component connection to play back taped material. The VHCu1 should work fine as it's designed specifically for such playback. I would have considered purchasing one but for the cost and the impending release of the FX1, so I invested in the Sony cam in preference, and I'm overwhelmingly glad I did. Besides, the FX1 can playback the HD10 tapes for me to see what the HD10 itself couldn't show me!!!

December 4th, 2004, 01:31 PM	#12
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	This is kind of funny because you seem to have it backwards. "However, if the camera is set to record then the HDTV becomes an excellent monitor in 720p of exactly what the camera is pointing at. " When outputing video live from the cam via component out, it is fully uncompressed and only in SD 480p even when your recording in HD (it may look HD to you)It will not output HD via component while recording. At anytime you can view HD from tape via component out to HDTV. I have no idea what is wrong with your cam. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 4th, 2004, 01:32 PM	#13
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	"so is ther a final word on FX1 vs HD10U yet? " Darren. I thought you were using an HD1? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 5th, 2004, 01:35 AM	#14
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	>>>> the message displayed on the cameras LCD is "cannot display image in this mode". Needless to say there's no image on the HDTV. >>>> Yep, that's exactly what mine shows on the LCD too - while sending a signal to my HDTV! That message is just a reminder that the camera can't display to the LCD while simultaneously displaying to an external monitor via component. So I think there's definitely something amiss with your camera, cables, or monitor input settings .... hopefully something simple and/or cheap to resolve.

December 5th, 2004, 03:14 AM	#15
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	The only way you can view actual 720p from the HD1 is recorded tape playback. The live monitor output as stated by Ken and Graham is only 480p.