1080p 60 fps codecs

[Mark Donnell]

For video to max out the 1080 level (prior to a move to 2K, 3K or 4K) it seems that we need a good codec to record 1080p 60 fps, for sports if nothing else. To my knowledge, we currently have only one option, which is AVCHD at 28-35 Mbps. Panasonic developed AVC-Ultra, which includes 1080p 60 at 200 Mbps, but to my knowledge has never implimented it in a camera. Are there other recording codecs out there for 1080p 60 ?

[John Wiley]

Technically, the one current camera which does 1080p60 is not actually recording AVCHD in that mode. It uses the same h.264 encoding scheme but it does not fall within the specs of AVCHD (which max's out at 24mbps and does not include 1080p @ 60fps). There is no such thing as "AVCHD at 28-35 Mbps"

It's not a matter of what codecs can do it, it's more a matter of who is going to implement it and what compression they decide to use when they do.

[Arnie Schlissel]

Since 1080P60 isn't currently a SMPTE, ITU or EBU format, the support is very spotty. Unless it's supported by SMPTE, the ITU or the EBU, there's little incentive for pro gear to support it.

[Mark Donnell]

Good info - thanks for your replies. It also occurs to me that sports, which are mainly for the television market, may not want 1080p 60 because of the size of the data streams. The satellite and cable providers are forever trying to reduce the number of bits that they send to our TVs.

[Dave Blackhurst]

But there are now a number of CONSUMER "AVCHD" cameras with 1080 60P at around 28Mbps. Panasonic released first, Sony has released several camcorders for 2011, along with several P&S cameras with video... they do mention that the footage won't burn to to BR for playback though...

Guess there's some catching up to do.

[Ivan Staley]

MPEG-4 AVCHD supports 1080/60p. This has been used in camcorders from Sanyo, Panasonic and now Sony

Sony Product Detail Page HXRNX70U

[Arnie Schlissel]

Sports channels are typically broadcasting in 720p60, which is the same bandwidth as 1080i30.

[John Wiley]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

But there are now a number of CONSUMER "AVCHD" cameras with 1080 60P at around 28Mbps. Panasonic released first, Sony has released several camcorders for 2011, along with several P&S cameras with video... they do mention that the footage won't burn to to BR for playback though...

Guess there's some catching up to do.

Usually if you look closely at the manual or promotional material for these cameras, it says they shoot AVCHD in 1080p30/24 and h.264 in 1080p60. Trivial? Yes, but still technically correct.

Originally Posted by Ivan Staley

MPEG-4 AVCHD supports 1080/60p. This has been used in camcorders from Sanyo, Panasonic and now Sony

Sony Product Detail Page HXRNX70U

MPEG-4 Supports 1080p60, So do camcorders from Sanyo, Panasonic and Sony which shoot AVCHD. But AVCHD does not support 1080p60. It is not within the specs of the format and while it it technically possible using the same compression, file structure etc it does not fit within the AVCHD guidelines.

AVCHD itself is not a codec, it is a set of agreed guidlines which encompass a number of formats in order to maintain compatability between consumer devices such as TV's, Blu-rays, etc. 1080p60 is not defined under the AVCHD standard because it might not be compatible with all those devices. That is not to say that some AVCHD capable devices (such as the Camcorders you mentioned) cannot also support 1080p60.

[Mark Donnell]

Actually, I just noticed that the Sony website says that the PMW-F3, Sony's new $ 13,000 5 lb interchangable lens camcorder, has dual link HD-SDI output with 4:2:2 1080p 50/ 59.94 fps. This would appear to be another option for acquiring 1080p 60 (59.94).

[Ivan Staley]

Okay so I get that MPEG-4 and AVCHD are different "container files" to store video encoded in H.264 codec.
Some newer Panasonic and Sony camcorders record 1080 60p 28 Mbps video with the same container files and the same folder structure as AVCHD. Although it may not be compliant to the current specification, I guess calling it AVCHD gives you an idea what the file format will be (MTS/M2TS). A new, not widely supported flavor.

Originally Posted by John Wiley

Usually if you look closely at the manual or promotional material for these cameras, it says they shoot AVCHD in 1080p30/24 and h.264 in 1080p60. Trivial? Yes, but still technically correct.

MPEG-4 Supports 1080p60, So do camcorders from Sanyo, Panasonic and Sony which shoot AVCHD. But AVCHD does not support 1080p60. It is not within the specs of the format and while it it technically possible using the same compression, file structure etc it does not fit within the AVCHD guidelines.

AVCHD itself is not a codec, it is a set of agreed guidlines which encompass a number of formats in order to maintain compatability between consumer devices such as TV's, Blu-rays, etc. 1080p60 is not defined under the AVCHD standard because it might not be compatible with all those devices. That is not to say that some AVCHD capable devices (such as the Camcorders you mentioned) cannot also support 1080p60.

[Jack Zhang]

Professional support for 1080p60 almost came when AVC-Ultra was introduced by Panasonic, then it became vaporware and we never heard from AVC-Ultra ever again.

[Allan Barnwell]

Panasonic was showing some AVC Ultra footage this year at NAB. No products announced yet, but the footage was being shown side-by-side with 4:4:4 uncompressed and was promoted as "visually lossless".

I'm not sure if the 1080p 60 aspect was mentioned.

I've recently run into the need for some 4:4:4 1080p 60 acquisition for a lab environment, and to capture that requires dual 3G connections on the recorder - something only a few devices have.

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services