Forgot about CES in a few days. Shall see what it said

Thanks

Dave

What do you mean?

Your quote.
"I hear rumors that many of your questions will be answered at CES"

We shall see if anything happens.

dave

Rumours?... Like the album recorded by Fleetwood Mac? Or, maybe those wildly exagerated and totally unsubstantiated snippets of information that are slyly and subversively spread amongst the more gullible in an audience in order to create excitement and break down resistance to an otherwise non-revolutionary concept or product?

That sort of rumour?

Seems like the logic of a generic - non branded form of HD capable media playback device, that is as easy to install/connect/use; just as current DVD stand alone players are, is somewhat lost on all but a very few folks who have been attempting in vain to get the various devices that have so far been released/touted/promoted as being capable of doing so to actually live up to the promotion/hype/rumours.

For any HD distribution device to be worthy of success it must be ubiquitous, without other competing brands/formats, which are incompatible with each other, and allow replication by more than just a select few who can afford the astronomic fees that'll be asked for licenses/copyright to be able to replicate content.

What shall we see happen at these all important trade shows... I'm putting my money on the corporate end of town protecting itself in even more clever and devious ways, and those lesser players like myself needing large quantities of Vaseline to make it easier to take when bending over yet again!!

DVD players cost over $300 when they first came out in late 1997 and didn't really take off until the mpeg2 decoder got cheap and Playstation 2s came out. Fortunately for Blu Ray (and eventually HD DVD in future Xbox 360s), PS3s will be out around the same time. Or so I've heard.

heath

Heath, I did not get into DVD's until the players, which I remember starting at 1K, got down to 150 bucks. Also, they had to play burned media, which had to be a fair price.

Now, how long to you think it will be until the HD players meet the above goals? I know I expect it will be years before I consider a switch.
In the mean time, I will collect my HDV video until the editing tools become fairly priced, if ever.

Dave

I agree that a ubiquitous media player that handled HD as well as the current DVD players handle SD, would be great.

Oh, wait. If that happens, I will go back to competing with people much more talented than I am. Hmmm. I think I am better off with the status quo. Sigh. ;)

Oh well. I still want to see great HD on my DVD player from other people, so I guess I have to get behind a new standard.

With PS3s coming out with Blu Ray, I believe we'll see affordable burners, etc. I'm hoping the DVD-Rs that I'm burning 720p via QuickTime's H.264 will play in the PS3/Blu Ray, because they're using H.264.

heath

The average Joe was perfectly delighted to do exactly just that with his VHS VCR, and he was thrilled to be able to FF when he couldn't even see the content while he scrolled through it.

As Heath said, menus should be available optionally at the press of a button, not mandatory. They are not needed, and not the primary selling point of SD DVD content. The average Joe prefers SD DVD now because of better picture quality than VHS primarily for the tapes he rents.

Tom, based on your post, their are two kinds of videos. One is a "movie", and I agree it should just by play. But, how many times have you had to stop, and want to get back to the same point way into the movie. I just the chapter selection all the time.

But, the second are of videos is lets say my family video. You do not just put it in and play. We always want to jump to a certain segment to show someone.

So, in both cases, IMO, having a menu structure as an option is a must.

dave

You can set up your DVDs to do that. You can tell it to "first play" either on the movie or on the menu. And I've never had a DVD not go back to where I last left off, unless I shut down the player. Even if I go back to the menu, it always starts back up where I left off, unless I tell it to do so otherwise.

heath

Heath, flexibility. I have 6 dvd players in the house. So, if I move the movie to another player, I need to be able to jump to a scene or chapter. There are times I hit the stop button twice by mistake, and then you have to start all over again.

So trust me, I need and use the menu structure ALL the time!!!

Dave

As far as I know, DVDs are not smart and can't remember where you last left off, unlike digital content on an iPod or something.

heath

Prepare yourself for a long wait then!!

The indicators are already there that EASY HD distribution - not just proliferation - will be a battlefield littered with shattered hopes and disillusioned believers and ex-fanboys.

The narrowness of perception that is displayed in so many opinions expressed here and other forums is symptomatic of an inability to grasp HD and it's distribution as much more than a single highly limited and very personal application.

There are already solutions available for HD distribution, but as anyone who has used them - or more correctly attempted to use them, knows... they are not ubiquitous, affordable or easy to connect and in many cases just don't live up to the hype and fanboy unswerving adoration.

The PS3 isn't even out yet, and it isn't even likely to be affordable for many, many Moons. As for Blu-Ray burners to toss into your 'Puter to cut Blu-Ray disks, they won't appear for quite a while - the user base of PS3 and Blu-Ray player owners would need to be large enough and tired enough of the Sony created/copyrighted commercial disks before they'll let Joe Bloggs lose with a writer. Then there's the authoring software. It'll take quite a while for authoring appz to add Blu-Ray or HD-DVD capability, if Dual-Layer DVD is anything to go by.

The XBox360 gives a fairly stark indication of how much of a struggle it's going to be... It was even promoted by Microsoft as a "HD media hub" capable of distributing HD content via it's DVD player and WMV9 disks, with network capability for streaming HD from DVB-t/s/c or HD webcasts to a HDTV via it's component connector.

Great in principle, but the reality of the implimentation is... You MUST have Windows Media Centre Edition to achieve the network playback ability, because SMB packet transfer over even wired networks is nowhere near up to the transmission rate for HD. So an all new OS is needed. Even worse is (from early indications) that the unit's internal DVD drive won't play burned disks of any content!!

If this is due to nothing more than the desire to control and limit content to only fully copyrighted material, which would be reasonable to assume - then it would be also reasonable to assume - given Sony's stated stand on copyright, that the PS3 will similarly "lock-out" non-commercially written material.

(BTW, I'm basing my XBox360 info on a European user who has run some test on his unit to my requests. I have no reason to believe that he's distorting or falsifying his results, as he would like the HD distribution functionality of the unit as much as anyone else... having paid for the thing!!)

The perception that we have of DVD is not the perception that the major corporations have. They know that their blunder with DVD was letting control over the playback of material slip through their fingers: to the extent that pirated or non-authorised content "robs" them of staggering sums of money. They won't make that mistake again.

We may want easy and ubiquitous HD distribution technology, but that's at odds with the corporate vision of HD content that is policeable, controlled and from which they receive what they believe is their rightful monetary dues.

Easy and ubiquitous HD distribution is going to be an expensive, torturous and frustrating road for those of us who decide to take it... Yee Ha!!!

Steve: you make some interesting points, but let's not conclude things are going to be that bleak until we see what happens with all the new products scheduled to ship this year. A lot could change in just the next few weeks, and we've already seen product announcements addressing some of the issues you suggested are off in the distant future. As much as I enjoy a good conspiracy theory, I'm willing to wait and see what pending products offer before concluding that easy and affordable HD distribution is going to be denied to us.

Steve, While mega-content owner$$ will certainly strive for the scenario you describe, the key point is that the hardware and media manufacturers are hell-bent on providing the rest of us with HD-capable burners and writeable media as soon as they possibly can.

I really doubt that capability will be going unused by the end of 2006.

Kevin, just to give one real life example of how the industry works, why did Panasonic just stop making there firewire DVHS recorder and set top box? They did nothing illegal. But strong rumors has it they were told by the big boys if they continued to make and ship the product, these companies would buy no more product from them. This was HD recording. So, since this was real, why do you think the future will be any better? We had a real product that worked, and was pulled from the market. I know where I will put my betting money just based no past facts.

Dave

Graham, you can do it today, just have to have the big bucks!!

Dave

Like I said, I enjoy a good conspiracy theory and share the sentiment that major players are trying to make HD recording more difficult -- but other major players are working to buck that trend and we already have functional distribution solutions if nothing else materializes. I'm willing to wait and see what happens this year before concluding that it's a lost cause.

As far as DVHS recorders are concerned, does anyone here think that would have made a good mainstream HD distribution option? Tape-based distribution is dead as far as most consumers are concerned, so it wouldn't be hard to think of non-conspiratorial reasons why those players are being discontinued.

"I really doubt that capability will be going unused by the end of 2006."

OK let me rephrase...what I'm saying is that I really doubt that cheap(ish) burners and media, suitable for us to distribute our non-megaCorp$$ non-DRM video content, will remain unavailable by the end of 2006.

(And I'm even less concerned that we'll lack software tools that can do the menuing etc that you are seeking.)

I promise I'll revisit this thread on Jan 1 2007 and eat humble pie if it turns out I'm mistaken!

Kevin, the point is the DVHS solution was like 10 years ago. Was DVD even an option then, nope. Today, DVHS is dead because of DVD. How about DAT, what killed that? Did the industry not kill the first Toshiba DVD players with progessive outputs? I could go on and on with examples of how the industry has killed technology.

So, I hope you are right but if you are, why is the music industry suing dead people. Why can we not even get an answer to will Blue Ray and HD-DVD put our 1080i on the component outputs. Sorry to say, but, I am NOT planning any use for the new stuff, assuming it ever comes out. It looks like it will be too expensive, and too controlled. I would love to be proved wrong.

Dave

Graham, why did HD-DVD delay there release? I hear it was for copy protection reasons, not technology.

Why did HD now join the HD-DVD camp? Was it work technical reasons? Nope, was for copy protection reasons again.

Why do we even need to look into the future one day? The technology for a full solution was available yesterday!!! I am alive today, I make no assumptions about tomorrow.

My Dad and I have been talking about him getting an HD display for years. But, since there is always something new for tomorrow, with more features, and cheaper, and who knows what the industry standards are, he has yet to buy anything. Oh well, money for me when he is gone. :o(

dave

Firmware update for the JVC SR-DVD100U
 

Dave and others:

FYI, there has been a significant firmware upgrade to the JVC SR-DVD100U that addresses several performance issues. This is a free upgrade for current owners. The owner's manual explains the steps to upgrade.

And, all new SR-DVD100U's shipping from JVC stock, starting in late December, 2005, include the upgrade.

Carl

"why did HD-DVD delay their release? I hear it was for copy protection reasons...."

Yes, commercially released HD disks will be copy protected, as were commercially released DVDs since Day 1.

But us little guys don't (usually) add copy protection when we burn our own DVD-Rs of our own digital material. Similarly, we won't be putting it on our own HD disks.

If the 1st gen software and/or players are so crippled as not to allow this, then that will simply accelerate the ramping up of 2nd gen stuff that does. Market forces.

Carl, I see the JVC until still uses the bad EPO drive.
Also, the reason I returned my I/O data unit is it would not play my burned DVD discs.

Nothing I have read on the I/O data forum says these issues have been fixed.

Dave

Sr-dvd100u
 

Hi Dave,

I'm speaking of the JVC SR-DVD100U, not the I/O Data unit. The SR-DVD100U has some significant improvements over the I/O Data unit.

I would suggest that you try one of the new version SR-DVD100U's. They just started shipping last week, so it's not likely that you have seen it yet. A reputable JVC Pro dealer should be able to order it for you.

Regards, Carl

Thanks for your input, Carl... nice to hear from you. See ya in Texas,

Thanks, Carl for the posts.

Chris, welcome to the thread.

heath

Carl, I have read all about the JVC. If you read on the I/O Data forum, you will find that the JVC unit, (which is made by I/O Data), still uses the EPO DVD drive that so so many have had issues with. Folks have asked why they put out a new unit with a drive that has proven to be an issue. I just about updated the last unit I got with the lite-on that everyone recommends, but I said that was nuts. If the mfg can not put in a decent drive to start with, that they know is an issue, does not say they are really committed to quality.

So, if the unit had a better DVD, I would buy and try again. Looks like now I will have to wait.

Dave

Sr-dvd100u
 

Hi Dave,

I understand there were some problems with the first run of these units.

But, with all due respect, have you actually tried the new version SR-DVD100U - the ones that just started shipping last week?

Regards, Carl

Dave,

I'd try it out if I were you before you pass judgment.

heath

I bought the AVL2 unit, and had one heck of a time returning it.
And, I never got an honest answer from them about DL media. So, I do not have a lot of trust.

So, I am reading on the I/O data forum folks that have the JVC unit, and the new f/w. A lot of them do not seem real happy. Plus, no one has answer the DL media question I just posted.

So, I have been burned once. I will wait until others see if the issues are fixed, but with the same bad DVD, as you can read in the forums, no f/w can fix that.

The forum is at http://www.iodata.com/usa/forum/

So, do you guys have the JVC unit? How about the AVL2? I am passing judgment on first hand experience, not just emotion!!!

Dave

Don't worry Dave... although there'll be responses no doubt that'll imply that you are just being emotional, and that if you were to get the newest devices, FirmWare, connection types and encoders as advised, you wouldn't have any problems at all. Of course; if you did so, you'd be well and truly cooked to a cinder!!

Firmware... now there's a good one. Just get a null modem cable, and Telnet into your unit. EASY!!! For who? The average computer user? Oh, that's right... better take the unit to an authorised dealer, who'll keep the thing for a few weeks to justify the extortionate charge for upgrading the unit. Then when it still doesn't operate properly, you'll get told how it must be something you are doing incorrectly because the unit performed beautifully at the dealer's workshop. As if they would have even bothered to test it in the sort of circumstances that the owner requires it to work under!

It's a case of technicians knowing that certain things are possible, but not alerting or advertising the restrictions to the folks who pay their salaries... so devices are released that will only work correctly in very specific circumstances; but for the sake of sales, these devices are promoted as a universal media distribution panacea based on conjectural and anecdotal hypotheses rather than real world evidence.

The networking performance of these HD Media Players is a case in point. I'm sure the technicians know that 10/100 isn't the preferred connection type - they sure know that Wireless isn't - but using Gigabit network connection would have meant very few sales, so the techies would have confidently pronounced 10/100 as capable of HD streaming. They know which side of their bread is buttered, and technically speaking 10/100 "should" be able to cope with HD data rates.

Real world performance of 10/100 is a totally different thing however. 10/100 wasn't designed with HD video transmission in mind. There's various protocols for data packet transmission, all of which can affect overall network performance. There are activities that run continuously across a 10/100 network that reduce the data throughput. Do you think the ordinary man in the street gives a rodent's derriere about any of that? Do you think they even want to know?!!

Despite all that, companies keep bringing out new devices that herald "view seamless HD streamed video across 10/100 networks!" Why? Because in controlled environments with perfectly matched equipment and using very specific HD sources, the company technicians have achieved such results - so as far as the companies are concerned, anyone not getting the same results MUST be doing something wrong. Even they believe their own hype!

The whole sorry saga started with the idea that owners of HDTVs might buy cameras that shot HD images they could watch via component connection on THEIR OWN HDTVs. I don't ever recall seeing any indication of using HDV camcorders for providing ubiquitous HD distribution via cheap media and HD capable media devices networked or otherwise at the time of the first HDV camcorder!! This whole distribution saga is a tacked on afterthought that had it's Genesis in the "what if" scenarios of those who figured that there ought to be a way to make it happen.

Knowing that makes me a lot less emotional about the failure of each new, highly anticipated device option that may - or may not - give the Holy Grail of cheap, easy and ubiquitous HD distribution to those of us now working with HD from various sources. What irks me is the tiresome repetitiveness of fanboys, corporate junkies, phantasy freaks and just plain cretins who are prepared to be mindless mouthpieces for the latest corporate jargon and profiteering jingoism that promotes nothing more than the latest electronic placebo.

Be assured that you aren't a lone soul when it comes to understanding the growing frustration at the conundrum of EASY HD distribution. Neither are you alone in realising that EASY HD distribution is as likely to be ubiquitous as peace and harmony are likely to be everlasting world conditions for humanity.

Steve, I remember when I jumped into HDTV recording big time. I purchased 5 DVHS decks. I had 3 of the very first JVC DVHS decks. Problem was they had design issues. I worked for months with JVC trying to see if we could get to root cause. I had 3 machines all going at one time and recorded the entire Olympics that HDNet broadcast. The video was assuming, when it worked. But, after having so many tapes that would pixelize, and being told by JVC time and time again that there was not any issue, I finally gave up and sold everything. I even had my name being talked about all over the JVC US corporate site since I started to get calls from very high level folks. Guess they were not happy I was being honest on the internet with all the issues I had. Again, having 3 US units, and 2 Japan units, I was able to do lots of A/B compares which no normal person could ever do. So, I have been burned way way too many times with this HD stuff. I even put the Linux OS solution together for 169time.com who made the first HD recording solution that they still ship. Richard knows HD inside and out, but none of the companys will work with him since they think they know it all.

So yes, I have gotten further into HD time shifting, etc. than probably just about anyone on this forum. I have recorded dish, direct, and C band HD onto both hard drives and tapes. I have a 1 gig network all over my house to my 10 computers, 6 dvd decks, 12 TV's, etc. So, I play with this stuff ALL the time. But, when I get burned, as I have by JVC and I/O Data, it is very very hard to convince me to again be a early adopter sucker!!

The main reason I dumped HDTV stuff is I found my family could care less about the "extra" quality. They could not stand having to be stuck watching it on the one HDTV I have. And, using tape was the pits. So, sold it all off for a lose, and just jumped into DVD big time.

So, who has the new JVC? Does it really work, or are all the others who have it and are posting their issues on the I/O data forum wrong?
Now, if JVC or I/O data wants to send me a unit to test, I would love to do that. But, I do tend to find lots of bugs.

I will just spend the year moving all my, and parents video onto DVD with a carosul (?) DVD 400 disc changer. Then, I may try to network this throught the house. And I will continue to take my HDV material and just wait until the tools catch up.

Dave

I just gave away my SD televisions and now all I have in the house are 3 HDTVs. Problem solved.

and that solves the problem of easy, ubiquitous HD/HDV distribution via cheap and affordable media how?

Oh, I see... you receive MiniDV tapes recorded by the HDV camcorder owners via mail, having paid their asking prices and you just play them back via the component connector of three HDV camcorders. You do have the Canon XL-H1 for backward compatability playback of all 1080i HDV videos? And a JVC HD100 for the same backward compatability function with 720p HDV material?

Nice to see the actual subject is something worth sticking to...

"I had 3 of the very first JVC DVHS decks. Problem was they had design issues"

And that surprised you????

Look, DVD burning had a year or two of frustrating hiccups around 2000 - the early software was a nightmare, half the brands of media had high failure rates, the burners were $300 plus.

The Sampo player I bought then, because it could play 'miniDVDs' burned onto CD-Rs, is the equivalent of the Linkplayer today - a transitional device. It's been in a box in my basement for the past 2 years....but it was useful at the time as way for me to start to learning the ropes of DVD production.

Yep, that shocked me!! Where I work, we do not ship things that do not work.

Another data point that was interesting is while I was working JVC engineers to see if the problems could be found, (The japan decks worked fine), they had the japan engineers in the US. I asked them why neither the US nor Japan deck had timer controls for the firewire inputs. The japan engineers answer was why would anyone want timer control for firewire recording inputs. I knew these products were in real trouble.


Yep, I waited on DVD playing and burning for a few years before I bought anything. I was still using my laser disc.

I made the mistake once thinking I could buy a player that would play HD well. Again, will let others debug these products now.

Dave

I'm still confused. Is there a *point* to all this?

If your conclusion is that you're planning not to be an early adopter anymore, then that's great; in your case it's probably a smart move. And it's a great way to bring this discussion to a fitting and timely ending. Otherwise I really don't know what else can be derived from this thread.

Chris, I started this thread to talk about what I believe the issue is with the HDV footage I am taking. This is there today seems to be no way to deliver content for the average Joe to use. But, I am hoping others either have solutions I missed, or maybe see something something. I sure was not expected to be attacked to tell me I am wrong with my opinions and experience.

So, my goal for this thread has not changed. I am looking to work with folks who see the same need that I have, and thats to deliver HDV material with tools that the average Joe and plug and play. As has been stated, maybe at CES this year, I will be proved wrong and players and tools will come out that will make this happen.

Dave