HDV Distribution - the real issue
 

Okay, I was reading the thread about is SD dead, and no where did I see what I believe is the real issue. The folks I make my videos for really could care less about the "bits". What they care about is the ability to easily use the end result. So, this first means the video MUST have a menu structure!
Second, you MUST be able to buy a cheap player. Third, is CAN NOT be a computer.

So, what have I found so far. I have found no authoring s/w that makes a menu structure other than a DVD. I have found no player (I have tried the I/O data player and sent it back), that is reliable and cheap.

So, I do all my editing at the HD level, but always produce an SD output to use in my ReelDVD authoring s/w.

So, am I missing tools that meet the about must requirements?

Dave

Yes, you're missing the blue-laser HD DVD players and matching authoring software which should have shipped at least a year or two ago but are still held up in development quagmire and should finally ship next year. In the meantime, the most practical way to meet the requirements you list is to deliver a widescreen standard-definition DVD, which for most people is still plenty good enough. Just be sure to make a proper anamorphic widescreen DVD, and not a "letterboxed" one.

Even if HD-DVD or Blueray where shipping today, they would not meet some of the criteria. This is CHEAP players, media, etc. I did not buy any DVD stuff for 2 years until I could get a decent player for $150 bucks.

So, I never can understand the letterbox vs anamorphic. If I use the 16x9 presets, is this not anamorphic? If not, what does one what to change in the work flow to make it anamorphic? What changes in Ppro?

Thanks

Dave

In PPro a 720x480 16x9 image is anamorphic. When exporting from a 16x9 HD to a SD 4x3 PPro defaults to letterboxing. You are doing the correctly thing. If you don't know how to tell the difference, load you SD AVIs into VirtualDub and it will be obvious.

Thanks David, that makes sense, which was the only choice I saw.
I just see so many use the same words for different meanings, better to ask.

Now, I still want to try and author a WMV DVD with the MS java stuff, and see how it plays in my pc. Assuming this works, it is too bad no one has a DVD player that will play these discs. Then, I would give the disc, and player, to family.

Dave

For those who were hoping that Microsofts' own HD "media entertainment centre and game console" the Xbox360 would play DVD+/-R disks with WMV9 HD video written to them... you're in for a BIG surprise!!!

Never assume that these corporations have the savvy to spot an obvious opportunity. Rather than make the Xbox360 an alternative for HD playback in a standalone device drive, M$ has opted to protect content with an internal drive that is "knobbled". Even the external optional Hard Disk is effectively useless for such tasks!!

One option offered by a Xbox360 owner who checked both the DVD drive and external hard drive functionality, offered the solution of uploading HD to the "marketplace" for distribution back to the unit's hard drive!! And all that is only theoretical... and I'd bet that if one could upload the vast number of Gigs in HD WMV9 to the marketplace, that M$ would charge the blazes out of you for the privilege.

Bottom line: M$ and it's single-mindedness have handed the opportunity of easy, affordable and universal HD distribution media and format to someone and something other than WMV9 and themselves. I doubt that Sony will be any different.

What a bloody minefield this is turning out to be, certainly when it should be easy, straightforward, no-fuss, just hand a client a disk for their XXX-player and everyones happy!!

DVD should have been a shining light of how to go about it... Oh no. Corporate greed shafts us all in the date. They are such children of unmarried canine parents... I hope they choke on the container loads of cash they're going to make from idiots like us!!

Does it seem like I could be marginally cheezed?

Steve, totally agree. This is why HD-DVD and Blue ray just may fail, like the fancy audio formats have failed.

Dave

Dave,

What was wrong with the Linkplayer2? Mine works great. It playes WMVHD or even the M2T files just fine. What was your problem with it other than the lack of a DVD like menu system?

Steven, it will not play burned single layer DVD's reliably, and it will not play burned dual layer DVD's at all.

Dave

The more I think about this, the more I sense the desire by the "main players" to keep HD content from small players - namely any one not a major studio or affiliate of the "major players" as locked out of relatively easy HD distribution.

M$, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Fox, MGM etc. etc are not so likely to be viewing the ease with which DVDs can be distributed with content that they can't control as being as good a thing as we (average Joe that is) do.

With the release of each new device that "should" make HD distribution the straightforward and easy thing we're searching for... a major stumbling block or an impossible for all but the biggest players to jump hurdle becomes evident.

I suspect the idea is that low cost HD/HDV camcorder owners will be coralled into personal viewing on their own individual systems of HD content, with the only distribution options being: take your HD/HDV material to service providers who'll have the "approved" hardware to create a distributable disk for you at a premium price, or bite the bullet and downrez/scale your HD/HDV to DVD.

It's highly likely that to make distributable disks for HD-DVD or Blu Ray, very serious monetary outlay will be required - thereby eliminating the lower end HDV camera owners/studios/users from a sizeable pool of content creators who could seriously affect the major corporations earnings. Anyone seriously believe they'd take the chance on losing income to the small guys?

Any individual who believes that these corporations are humanitarian organisations without agendas or market domination as their goals is in need of serious health care intervention.

Easy HD distribution may well be a pipe dream. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I'm not prepared to go and buy every new "promising" device just to find that clever marketing will always catch suckers...

Steve, I sure wish you were wrong, but. The technology is there, and could easily be developed but no.

I was involved with 169time company who made the only system that allows one to copy HD material. The company is doing nothing special, or illegal, but has anyone else delivered? The only system that used to ship was the panasonic STB and recorder but they just somehow decided to stop making it. Wonder why. :o)

Now, if 169time could somehow make a STB that could read MVW discs that the PC can read. They would have another killer product.

Dave

Dave,

It is a shame you had trouble with the single layer disks. I have zero problems with mine. I wonder if you just had a defective unit?

I have purchased quite a few for my customers and they all work fine on with my DVD-ROMs. But nonetheless, I agree that we need a new standard that will work for the majority of us, at a price that everyone with an HDTV can easily afford, using media that will not cost us a fortune to produce, that will hold a couple of hours (at least) of HD material at the highest resolution out there today (1080i).

I realize I am not the standard HDTV owner, since I own three of them. But I know a lot of people who own at least one that would be happy to pay for the next great toy.

I-O DATA makes a unit for JVC (SRDVD-100U) that will playback ts files perfectly. I have archived over 50 DVD-R discs so far, without a dropout. At approximately 29 cents per disc, you can fit 30 to 40 minutes of video on each DVD. The JVC unit pricing is still rather high ($379 street) for mainstream consumer purchase, but certainly reasonable enough for coorporate clients.

Steven, a group of us had purchased 3 of them. They all had the same issues. You can read all over the net the problem with the DVD reader they ship with the unit. (And, I think the JVC and I/O data has the same problem since they are the same based product.) And, since I make a lot of Dual layer DVDs, non of them play. All I got back from I/O data is their engineering team is looking at.

So, since my first need was to be able to play the existing discs I had, so I did not have to have two DVD players in my room, I sent it back.

Now yes, the machine plays TS files, wmv files, networking, etc., but these comments miss the whole reason I started this tread. There may be a few of us nerds who love to over look the limits of the technology, but, not the average person. I made a video in wmv format. Yep, it played great on the I/O data. But, was it useable? Lets see, I wanted to go to the video at the 90 minute point. So, how did I get there? I could let it run in real time. I could do maybe an 8x (?) FF, but no way could I jump right to the spot to show a customer. Now, I then broke up the file segments into seperate files. Okay, I had to stop each time and go back and find the file I wanted to watch. Did it work, yep. Would anyone want to pay for this? Nope.

So, I am looking to talk about how we can get tools that allows us to give a solution to a normal customer. And, if you can not push the button and jump right to where they want to go, I see that I am forced to stay with DVD format and cheap 15 dollar DVD players.

So, what are the solutions I can sell to our non nerd customers!!

Ben, how do you get to the 30 minute point on all your DVD-r's to watch?

Dave

forget it post deleted

Colvin, why did you delete your post? This sounded very interesting.
"If there is enough interest, I might mass produce a solution I have come up with for my own customers."


Can you repost? What solution have you come up with for your customers?

Dave

Seems to me that the obvious next step if you're not happy with the Avel player would be an inexpensive PC outfitted with something like an ATI All-in-Wonder video card and matching remote control. I calculated a while back that a complete setup like this would cost about $600 or so, plus you'd have to deal with the nuisance of having to boot the computer when you want to play a disc. (Unless you just leave it running.)

Starting next year both Intel and Apple will be pushing computer-based multimedia solutions which (hopefully) minimize the computer-like aspects in favor of the multimedia ones. Prices are likely to be a little high at first, but perhaps they'll finally do something right and deliver a usable, user-friendly solution. We shall see...

Kevin, this could work but again, the average Joe is NOT going to put a PC in their living room. no matter what they call it. Plus, we all know how a "PC" works. :o)

Dave

So... someone who doesn't already own a computer is going to buy a HTPC just to get HD playback functionality from distributable media, that they should have already got from far more practical devices? Even though they've never owned or used a computer before, because if they already owned a computer, they probably have some idea of how to connect their current PC to a HDTV for streaming video from a DVB-t/s device.

Yeah... I can see that happening, along with hovercars and matter de-integration/re-integration instantaneous transport.

Intel and Apple eh? Now there's a proven team!! What's that you say they'll be doing with this new technology that'll supposedly revolutionise media content delivery... Pushing!! you mean it's so crappy that they'll need to shove it down our collective throats?

Mobile phones are bad enough. Now we're to believe that an even greater distraction to folks who should be paying more attention on where they're going rather than less is gonna be good for us?!! Maybe the World could do with a self-initiated cull of the less observant...

See... this is like watching all those "Foxtel digital for only $10..." or "Sky puts a Galaxy of entertainment at your fingertips from only $25 for the first month", offers that sound so tempting. Why do you reckon they're "pushing" it so hard? Because those who had it on are disconnecting, and those who fall for the ad campaign quickly learn what a con it is.

Colleagues at work who know that I have HD gear said stuff like "I'm getting Foxtel digital... that's HD so I'll be able to watch any HD stuff I want". Can't wait until tomorrow when I'll find out how quiet they've gone... Why quiet? Embarrassment.
See; it's more than mostly SD content provided on a scheme that very rapidly costs more and more. What a disappointment!! Then there's hidden costs that chew into the average persons money pit.

Like the electricity that costs more and more, then all the other gizmo's to make the entertainment experience complete - like the game console, because a HTPC just won't "cut it" compared to a dedicated console, with dedicated games that'll only run on that brand/model of console... I'm surprised that every human on the Planet hasn't got this stuff because it's just so affordable!!

P.T. Barnum would be glowing with pride at the modern evidence for the truth of his appraisal of humanity.

Archiving .ts files on the JVC SRDVD-100U
 

I understand that the earlier I/O data unit had some issues, but the one they manufacture now for JVC does not. At least, mine doesn't. In any event, I can comfortably put 3.25 gigs of a .ts file on a DVD-R disc. I've never tried recording a wmv-formatted file, so you may have a point. Movies, TV shows and files recorded from my FX-1 (after being converted to .ts files in Vegas) play without a problem.

Ben, can you play an authored dual layer DVD? One that you made yourself.
I am not aware of anyone who has made them play.

Dave

Blu-Ray is blue laser, HD DVD (Toshiba) is red laser, FYI. Also, no one accepts HDV tapes, they want HDCam (TV networks, etc.).

heath

No they are both blue laser.

Right you are! I forgot about that.

heath

I think that DVD is going to be the golden standard for many more years. HD discs will fall into a niche market like SACD and DVD-A but their will be more of a push because people want to use their HDtv's even if they can't really see a difference.

So what is available now if you want to distribute HD.

Depending on how long something is you want to author you could author a DVD and just stick a WMV file on the disc in HD. Good for < 1 hour I would think. Double that to 2 hours with a DL DVD+R. You could do the same with a TS file.

The other option is to just author your dvd for a client (if that is what your doing) and give them a disc with a TS file or sourcefile, or even a miniDV with HDV on it, or just have an archive of the HDV tape so when the availability comes around you can create a HD disc.

Beyond that, getting HD into peoples home, is their anything available or could be made available? Any ideas outside the box?

Most people are still on SD, so a reguar SD DVD will probably work for those people.

heath

Keith, I have gotten longer than an hour of WMV on a single layer at max quality, and more than 2 hours on a dual.

So, to me the issue is useability. Yes, you can make it work. But, since we are now all used to jumping directly to any part of a disc via a menu, there is no way I would give anything to a customer that is harder to use. It would be in 16x9 DVD format, so they will think thats cool. The picture quality for most will not be an issue for lots of reasons. Eyes, lighting, adjustments on the TV, etc. My quality of my DVD's from HDV material on my display is eye popping compared to SD original material.

Dave

Heath, if I could get a menu structure of a TS stream, or wmv codec, I would have no issue buying a DVD player, like the I/O Data, if they would work.
Now, got to be politics going on. If you can author a wmv with the MS Java disc you can get, and then play this on your PC, there is NO reason this same coding could not be put into a DVD set top!!!!

Dave

Try Nero:

http://ww2.nero.com/enu/index.html

And buy a Nero-certified (if that's the right word) DVD player, and you should be able to see HD content. Their DVD software licenses every time you make a DVD, which means if people don't have a Nero player on their PC, the DVD you made comes with one.

We talk about this on the VASST tour (www.vasst.com).

heath

One thing I'd like to see which should be feasible but apparently isn't easy yet would be to transfer HD video directly to an HD-capable "Tivo" box. If anyone's managed to do this let us know what you had to do to get that to work.

Don't forget you can author to DivX 6.1 and there are quite a few players that play it's format.

check out divx.com for the available players.

Transfer to a HD capable DVR? That sounds very interesting. I never thought of that.

OK. So how do we turn component outputs into cable? I see that my DVRs have component inputs - or so it seems. This one deserves some research. And then we need to figure out how to record from those inputs.

Heath, the issue is not being able to see HD content. There are lots of ways and devices to do this. The issue is the able to "use" the content in a way that is equal or better than a DVD. Folks are not going to want to stop drinking wine and go back to water.

Dave

I'm confused now--you wanted answers to HD content and "distribution," so we gave it to you. But you want something better than an SD DVD. Unless you're making QuickTimes or WMHDs for computers, or a Nero hi def DVD for Nero-ready DVD players. That's going to be better than a DVD in terms of quality.

But until Blu-Ray or HD DVD comes out and one becomes a standard and people actually move to it, but keep in mind, Grandma and Grandpa have only recently bought SD DVD players, then we'll see people loving HD-content DVDs. And that will be better than SD DVDs.

heath

I would choose feature length HD image quality over a menu structure with extras, any time.

It would be fine by me if regular SD DVDs just starting playing the movie when you popped them in the drawer. Many menus are an irritant to me.

When DVDs first came out, they immediately started the film and you'd have to hit menu to go to the main menu. It was nice but short-lived.

heath

Can you double-check and see whether those are component inputs, or just component outputs? I've yet to see any reasonably-priced device with component inputs, and that's part of the problem.

Yes, I will check it as soon as I can. Keep in mind that Brighthouse Networks won't let me buy the DVR. It is part of the monthly fee. I have a couple of them, and as soon as I can get around some of the boxes in my media room. I will work on figuring this out. But I imagine that the TIVO is pretty much the same as these Scientific Atlanta boxes.

It might be very interesting, being able to record HD on to the DVR instead of just connecting the camera. The next question is: Does it look any better direct from camera to component, than it does from tape to component. Seeing as how the DVR compresses anyway. Right?

Heath, I tried to title it like I see the real issue. Distribution is not just give someone a piece of media you put in a player and it starts to play. That can be done today. But, lets get real. The average Joe cares about useability MORE than quality. So, Tom I just hand you a 2 hour HD DL disc. I want you to go to the section at 1 hr 50 minutes. Now, how are you going to get there? The best is FF, and thats going to take a long time.

So, anyway, I do think my title says it all, the real issue. Its useability.

Dave

"HDV distribution the real deal" is what you wrote. In terms of making chapters, I believe you can do that with DVD Studio Pro 4, but there goes the player option (Apples only--and I discovered my new purchase of a 12 in. PowerBook from the previous generation can't support it with it's CD-RW/DVDROM drive). Not sure about Nero, though.

I hear rumors that many of your questions will be answered at CES. Until then, almost 100% of consumers are on DVD players (not counting Nero) that support SD, so you make an SD DVD and your HDV project is future-proofed. Offer an HD DVD or Blu-Ray for more money later on.

heath