Dave,

I think the issue is with the phrase "average Joe". I am afraid that there will be a significant wait before we have any hope of recording HD or HDV and expecting even half of the people with HDTVs to see it correctly.

I don't think that there will be a good solution for some time to come, and then getting it deployed could be a serious problem. What drove people to get their first VHS or Beta, and then their first DVD player? We will have to find the "killer app" and it is not going to be weddings. Some sort of game perhaps? Porn? Who knows? But it will have to be powerful to get people off of their current DVD players. So many people can not tell the difference between a SD DVD and a HD signal over their cable. So why should they care?

In the meantime, I only have customers who are leading edge. They want high definition training because of an extremely visually detailed subject matter. For most of the people on this forum, their customers won't be ready for HD for years. And to be honest, I don't have the talent to compete fairly in the SD markets. Not yet anyway.

My point is that if you want to shoot HDV, get customers who need HDV. Otherwise, be patient. Sure, fight for better standards and to bring the warring factions to the conference table. But seeing the need, and even having a solution, is not enough. People need to see a reason to open their wallets.

As for the answer to Crisdale's question, I supplied my customers with a player to play my training videos as part of the cost of the videos. The I-O-Data works for me, and it works for them. I don't need what it can't do. I don't need dual layer. It works fine. So, while not ubiquitous in the larger sense, 100% of my customers have the problem solved. And when a new solution shows itself, they will probably be ready for new training videos, and will be happy to pay for the capability of playing them on the big screen.

Steve, I agree with you.

Again, all I was trying to do is start a thread to talk about what options we have for the average Joe, and I use parents as the target. I shoot my HDV for families. Whether it is weddings, funnerals, graduations, sports, school shows, etc., these are all for the non nerd types. A lot of them have HDTV's.
So, am just missing the pieces to take my HDV, and put it in, what I consider a useable format, to play on their HDTV.

So, I will continue to keep my eyes open. Yes, if I only had your need, I would purchase the JVC I/O data machine (assuming its better).

So, lets see if CES brings any christmas presents for us. :o)

Dave

Does anyone know if their is any type of DRM that can be implemented into quicktime mov files. I know WMV can have some sort of server connect thing but it gets realitively complicated and not cross plateform - I don't think anyway.

I know people are thinking physical media distribution, but what if we think to cut out the middle man. Their are too many movies I'm getting sick of not seeing because they never come to my city because are limited releases. But what if online distribution was real.

DRM that is safe enough for the movie makers but not so intrusive as to inhibit the end user. If their was a quicktime DRM (and their might be, i dunno, engineer not a content creator) then I think that it would be a good bet that an online distribution could be setup like itunes but have it open so that people can register and get approved and submit videos in a certain format. The audience can download them for a fee where a fixed percentage of the cost of the movie (which could be set by the person posting it) is then keep by the company. Or even if their was a simple way of protecting it, with an unsharable password. I'm not a DRM fan, but even I know that people have the right to protect their content.

How about that for HD / HDV distribution. I'm just trying to think outside of the box.

How does itunes protect their new video stuff, that got to have DRM like their audio, right?

AFAIK, the Apple DRM is simply an automated and internet based version of Quickime Media Keys. All iTunes does (the store and the client program) is handle the distribution of keys to different devices (ie computers & iPods).

The other thing about iTunes/iPod (the nasty part) is it locks out music bought from other download sites that have non apple DRM on them, and won't play on non Apple devices (without stripping off the DRM).

The difference between "FairPlay" and Media Keys is and that the Keys are handled and distributed automatically, rather than manually. I believe it's added automatically as part of the download process from the iTunes Store, and is not part of the original file.

You could implement you own DRM style system but you'd need a client software, server, and a way of automating the mediakeys system.

The whole client server thing is where this is all falling down I think. But It might be the only way to protect content easily. I'm hoping for an off the shelf solution. Companies have been touting on demand and drm for years. Just need to deliever on that.

I never though drm was this complicated until i gave a quick look this morning. Their has to be a simple way to protect content for online distribution.

It could be done without DRM but I don't think many people would submit feature length items for fear of just accelerating piracy. No DRM = 1 purchase and a free for all possibly.

Jvc Srdvd-100u
 

The latest firmware for this unit is dated Dec 27, 2005. I STILL have had no problems (except for a rather slow responding "open/close tray issue) and I'm completely satisfied with the JVC. I don't know how it would stand up to being used 8 hours a day, but for my needs (archiving .ts files) it works perfectly.

Hi all,
i know this thread is old and all. Look, im petty much your avg Joe named Mike, no matter. I want to play my Sony FX1/HC1 HDV files (lighly edited) on JVC SRDVD-100U unit that's been so much talked about here. I understand that it may have issues with certain hi end features. But i realy couldnt care less about network playback. All i need to know before i order one is if it'd play my mpg2 files off of regular DVD's (or DL DVD's) over the component out and if DVD-video (off shelf movies) will play in it too (actually later isnt even all that important either). Can any owners of that device give me honest answers to my questions please. I'd really appreciate it. Once again, i wont be playing raw 1080i HDV files, i'll be editing em in Vegas and then render out as HD mpeg-2 (or Windows Media 9) files. Thanks again

If you don't need DVI, your local Comp-USA may stock the I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2 which has a better firmware support. I've never been able to find the JVC, which happens to be made for them by I-O Data.

Anyway, yes it will play almost anything you throw at it, depending on which firmware. You start with the firmware that ships, then you find it doesn't do certain things, you upgrade to the next version online, but you can't always roll back. There are about 8-10 updates as I recall. Stop at the one that does what you need. If you continue, some firmwares break what wasn't broken. If you go all the way to the end, you lose upscaling of std definition DVDs to 720p/1080i.

So they are quirky, yes...but nothing else quite does everything either.

I have one, I couldn't be without it. But I had to replace the loader, went thru a series of firmware upgrades, went one too far, but it still works. For example, one firmware WMV9 played super, the next update the WMV9 video was fine but the audio lost sync big time, then it was fixed again in a subsequent update.

It will play m2t straight from the HDV, no need to transcode or recode. Depending on the firmware version, it plays DivX, mpeg4, really just about everything but Apple Quicktime.

Yes it will do those things nicely.

(And indeed the Linkplayer2 will do all those things too.)

Edit: and what Tom says too! our posts overlapped.

Thank you all for you detailed answers. Guess i'll be buying the thing most likely this weekend. Thanks again

JVC has plenty of the SR-DVD100U's in stock. Simply order one from an authorized JVC Pro reseller. If they don't have it, they can get it from JVC in a few days.

Regards,

I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned here (that I noticed) that HD DVD players will play HD DVDs authored onto red laser discs. Normally, HD DVDs are blue laser and hold 15 GB per layer, but the standard also accomodates red laser discs! BlueRay does NOT do this. I have authored several HD DVDs from HDV footage using Ulead Movie Factory 5, and they look great on my Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD player.

The procedure is somewhat tricky, but the process is thouroughly described at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146.

David, I have mentioned red-laser HD-DVD a number of times in various threads. And I've been doing it myself. There just doesn't seem to be much interest. Threads like. "How good does HDV downrez'd to SD look?" seem to predominate.

That won't work anymore because the firmware has been updated on the newer Toshiba's. That will work with older ones.....
You can always produce a .TS file that is HD and play that in something like an AVel Link Player - JVC has a branded version of this player called the SRDVD-100U that can bought for about $385.00

Source please?

David Saraceno gave me the original tip about producing an HD DVD using only red dyd DVD's.....
He got it to work and I burned about a dozen test discs and went up to Best Buy and nothing would work.....David then posted that the new players with the firmware update would not read the red dyd DVD's....
So a client needed some HD digital signage and I found the JVC unit will playback 1080 24p HD files....through much testing I found the best settings
to use and satisfys the customer need for now. Eventually once DVD SP gets more integrated with HD DVD we plan to move in that direction.

Mike, I suspect your files are not compliant for the following reasons:

1.) New Toshibas are not out yet, they are all the "older" ones at BB at this point, they are firmware upgradeable to the new firmware which has been working fine with HDV. The X-Box HD-DVD add on player has also been working fine.

2.) 24p HDV is not supported on HD-DVD, just 1440x1080i60. That may be your problem right there.

3.) The authoring process is exacting. If for example you're not using version 7 or later of Nero, and select UDF DVD, no multi-session and select X-Box compatibility mode, you won't get the result.

I have the I-O Data AVeL Linkplayer2 which is the maker of the JVC, so I am well familiar with the capabilities, the Swiss Army knife of media players, but unless you give out players, you don't have a distribution format, nor menus.

I followed Davids working formula to a T.....
David mentioned the possibility of firmware
upgrades....I have no idea if the best buy players
are updated......for now customers just want
HD playback for the digital signage, no menus
needed. At $385.00 that is cheaper than the
HD DVD and I can get it to work. It is sharper
and cleaner than the 16:9 SD DVD we delivered
for testing.
Once HD DVD authoring matures I will be right
in there.
For another app we are using ADtec MPEG HD
servers to sync up a 5 screen video I am editing
right now.....sent test files to Adtec and they
are playing with no problems.....

Somewhere I read that reading red laser HD DVDs is part of the HD DVD standard. I'm certain many will be ready to confirm that with the G2 models and XBox add-on.

I can appreciate Mike's problem, until you make the first one successfully it's frustrating. I did exactly the same thing, burn a disk, run to BB to try it out because I wasn't going to buy the Toshiba HD-DVD player unless I could make it work. Ultimately in my case, the problem was an older version of Nero. Once I upgraded to the latest it's been 100% always.

I love the I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2 (or JVC) because you get immediate gratification, just capture 1440x1080 m2t to disk, stream out to the LinkPlayer2 over a network cable. I wouldn't even know if the component outputs on my HDV cams even work or not. I never bother using them.

The two negatives on the I-O Data or JVC rebrand are:

1.) Sometimes stutters a bit on 25mbps 1080i60 m2t. From the specs, 25 mbps way exceeds the stated bit rate even though it does handle it pretty well.
2.) Horrible EPO (Chinese brand) loader. Many people (like me) who use it to play DVDs will get frustrated with it's poor reading ability on some media, and replace it with a Lite-On or equivalent drive. I've been through two of the EPO drives, now have a Lite-On in there.

I am a little confused here:

I got the HD DVD player from Toshiba and I must have created at least a dozen HDDVD (Red Laser Dual layers) and I have also updated my firmware with no issues.

PS: The discs were created using DVDSP4

That is good to know, please tell me your receipe and I will see if I can duplicate it....
Thanks

to go back to original topics i would add:
since the HDV, a really interesting thing happened.
People start to make the difference between content and media.
Before HDV, there was media only. You would not play a video, you would play a VHS, a DVD etc... because the media involve the recorder/player.
since the HDV and the lack of player, people start to store their HD movie into files. Files have format (Divx, wmv, Mpeg2) but for instance they have almost no media (except HDV tape).
So now people can think about creating files and then stores them on mass storage originally not designed for video (usb key, DVD rom, Harddisk, internet) or not allowing to play the content that is stored on (because too slow)
Then people start to think about how to play the file.
Most of us are using PC or Hardisk boxes with video output.
so you just need to copy the file from the storage media to the player.
that is a pretty new way of distributing movies and i think it will be the futur of video.
for about 350$ you can get a box with a huge harddisk (usually over 200gig) that can read almost any HD-codec.
I expect these kind of box to flood the market before HD-DVD or blu-ray players because they are cheaper, give more performance, can be upgradable easily, don't rely on capacity of the media , are available immediately.
the rapsody N-35 and the Dvico TivX-HD M-5000 are the precursor, but expect to see many boxes like this to popup in 2007

HDV hasn't broken any new ground in these regards. DV cams shoot on mini-DV as well and the media player industry never adopted that format. VHS was the only real format that supported capture and media playback for the masses. The new mini-DVD cams that can be used in DVD players, are the only other example of media capture working with standard media players. Otherwise no cam formats have ever been mass media player compatible.

On a related note the new Xbox360 HD-DVD drives are PC compatible using a standard USB2 interface. They also come in their own enclosure for easy portability and a copy of King Kong. $199 list price.

That is the best excuse I can see to finally get the X-box!!

With the latest xbox 360 software, and windows media player 11, you can now locate yout 1080P wmv files on your PC and play them on your xbox. I've done this across an 802.11g wireless network without a problem.
The only real pain was the conversion to wmv - using premiere pro 2 on a 3gHz P4, 1 minute of video required one hour of processing,

A review of the $200 MS PC/X-box HD-DVD player.


http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=325

authoring prices
 

never mind wrong forum

On the contrary, one of the beauties of HDV is that the edited videos can now be distributed in "native" format on widely available discs and players. This means we can deliver finished videos to consumers in the same format recorded by our cameras, and archive raw HDV footage in a playable format on mainstream media. That has significant practical advantages compared to shooting in any other current video format, at least until AVCHD matures.

I disagree. The amount of people who own a HDV capable player is so small it isn't worth mentioning, and I don't see a mass migration to HDV compatible players in the future. Mini-DV decks have been available for many years as well, but no DV shooter would ever think of distribution on mini-DV. As I mentioned before, VHS and DVD are the only two media players ever to have mass acceptance, and may be the last.

Time will tell. The point here is that there are now mainstream HDV-compatible players which are widely available for those who want them, which has never been true for DV. Plus there are several tens of millions of computers capable of playing an HDV file at 720p resolution, with maybe a few million capable of playing 1080i/p.

We could make a case that AVCHD will become prevalent before HDV-capable players are pervasive, but other than that HDV is currently a uniquely useful acquisition and delivery format.

Even if that were so, its a safe bet than an MPEG-4 capable player will happily play HDV mpeg2 as well.

And I don't really get Ken's comment - I mean, the number of people with ANY kind of HD player is miniscule right now. And when more people have those they'll almost certainly play HDV material (with a little authoring as necessary).

The new HD-DVD or BlueRay players will play HDV? I have never heard that before.

As far as I know it's always been a stated expectation of both HD disc specifications to be capable of playing an HD resolution M2T file. If there's any reason they wouldn't play a "raw" HDV file I'd sure like to know about it.

I'll try and find a link ... but my understanding has been that both MPEG2 1440x1080 and 1280x720 are within-spec for both formats.

HD-DVD will play HDV but it has to be authored into the format like you would with a regular DVD. There is no re-encoding involved so the process is speedy and lossless, but the authoring program Ulead Movie Factory 5 only supports 1920x1080 or 1440x1080, so 720p would have to be transcoded into one of those.

Whether this 1920/1440 limitation is just with the early authoring tools or a limitiation of the format specification itself I can't say.

What you can't do is just copy an HDV m2t file onto a disk and expect it to play in a HD-DVD player. It won't.

I can tell you about being used 8 hours a day. I have one installed in an art gallery and it has played continuously 24 hours a day for more than four months. The only time it stops is to change one of the two twenty minute HD disks.

This gallery also does custom picture framing and they framed a 42" plasma and hung it in the front window. It looks remarkable.

I'm getting the JVC for playback in our booth and event media. The fact that it can run 24/7 as you've stated is just what I need. I've used some high-end laptops for this, and after breaking a few and running into overheating drives and other issues, (not to mention uniformed users). This is a no-brainer.

Talk about technically challenged, this set up is in an art gallery. The only incedence was a power outage, when the power was restored the JVC DVD palyer started playing automatically, but I had to tell them to turn the plasma on...

I'm curious to see how long the plasma lasts.