Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Hi,
I am about to get this camera that seems a right fit for me... Low budget, multi purpose, 4K.
I own a Canon 5D Mark II and a BMPC 4K.
I find very difficult to use the BM on my day to day jobs so I end up delivering HD video with the Canon but still I need to record separate audio and sync in post. This has to end! Still I need a decent camera for my corporate jobs, something I want to mount on a rig, and use external monitors with...

SO.. again.. LS3000 seems the right choice and I think I'll end up selling both the others (and maybe reinvesting on an ATOMOS or similar for external recording).

Here my doubts

1) I've discovered the HDMI 2.0 output is NOT 10-bit. That's a pity as it could have been really a game changer. I've noticed there have been many fw updates. Technically speaking, do you think it is possible that a future fw update will enable 10-bit output? The HDMI 2.0 does it... the sensor and the buffer I guess it does (having raw data) so it's probably just a matter of CPU power.. or not?

2) I've seen there is a forecoming new firmware update (4.0 ?) that will enable 4k up to 60p. I was wondering why they where not doing it (being that they already added 70mbit only 4k) , thinking it was a sensor limitation... Now finally we will have it. Great ! Somebody out there is using 70mbit 4k and can tell me if the quality holds? (I am interested in JLOG1 specially)

3) I like the short depth of field effect I had before with my Canon and to some extent with the BM.... Will I be able to get it with a MFT ?

4) I would like to get a Metabones adapter, but also to but an all-in-one zoom MFT lens for standard day to day use. As far as I understand the 14-140 is NOT powered so I will ned to zoom by hand or go for shorter zooms (only 5x or so).. correct? Any powered decent lens to match the camera ? Does the Metabones work well with iris.. I know some people have problems with Canon lenses.

Thanks to all.

Marcello

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Marcello - The LS300 is is a cam I’ve been looking at for some time but put on the back burner due to being overwhelmed in other areas. Life can be busy!

Don’t know if this will help any, but here is a 4/3rds lens chart that might be of use along with tables of lenses in various categories. The Complete Micro 4/3 Lens List updated to December, 2016 as of this post.

One of my justifications I used for looking at the LS300 was it would accept my old Nikon lenses which were a big investment and the adapter was comparatively inexpensive, a real plus. However, as a rule of thumb, the newer lenses are better than the old ones so that would have probably made them placeholders.

The short depth of field with a prime lens capability was what I was shooting for with this cam. Oh, and interchangeable lenses are re-usable. No need to invest in an integrated lens-camcorder as technology improves.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

The LS300 has many useful features, but it's not perfect in every way.

1. HDMI out is 8-bit 4:2:2 color, same as internal 50Mbps 1080p recordings. No need to record externally.

2. 70Mbps is inadequate quality for grading 4K J-Log1 footage. Don't shortchange yourself, buy a 128GB SD card.

3. The LS300 has an APS-C sensor, bigger than MFT, with much shallower DOF than a BMPC.

4. No need for a powered zoom with VSM 2.3X digital zoom. Get a sharp fast prime, you'll love it!

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I was under the impression that it was a super 35 sensor? bigger than APS-C

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

From the JVC web site:

Super 35 13.5 M pixels progressive scan CMOS

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Super35 and APS are often used interchangeably even though there is a difference in dimensions.
There's a lot of different aspects in S35 and several different sizes of APS-C.

I don't think it really matters what you call it. It's not Full Frame and it's not MFT but somewhere between.
And in reality it doesn't make much difference as the crop factor is about the same.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

My 2 cents:

Never buy a camera unless you absolutely need it. Look, every 8 bit camera on the market is about to become outclassed. Panny to officially announce the GH5 today or tomorrow.

I wanted 4K internal recording, but not quite wiling to spend more then a grand, so I got a used Sony A6300 for $750. Puts me into the 4K game without breaking the bank, knowing full well that the camera will be outclassed a year from now.

Yes, it's a giant pain in the butt to use - but seeing as I came from a VG20, I'm used to suffering. Now, I only make full length narrative films, or short local commercials, so I can deal with the negatives.

Now, if I was shooting 4-5 times a day every week, I'd buy the LS300 every time. If I was shooting nothing but greenscreen, the LS300 would not be my first choice.

Depends on what you need it for.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

You can get a slightly wider shot with MFT lenses with the LS300. Some of them will vignette so you have to be careful.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Thanks to everybody....

I own a BMPC (4k ... raw if needed) and a Canon 5D M2 (decent HD).
The problem is that for quick jobs I need a video-camera (interviews, ENG, etc) and I don't have, so I need using the 5D (I am good at focusing handeld.. that's not the problem) with external audio recorders and then syncing etc... The BMPC is a great camera but is very (very very very) dark and I end up delivering my corporate movies in HD because I need to shoot darker situations with the 5D.

So, I was aiming for a camera to "do them all". And I want to sell the others !!!

The URSA MINI with the 4,6K (1600 ISO) was a choice.. but... welll... I am afraid 1600 would still not be enough in some situations.. and C FAST cards are very expensive. It' portable, has XLR audio.. but... Is not a one for all camera.

The LS300 seems to be a better choice for me. The 4K file will be much worse than my BMPC one, but for run n shoot situations will be fine (even HD!) and I can get an external Blackmagic or Atoms monitor/recorder and use it with the rig in corporate situations.


What I don't understand... Is (or will ever be) the HDMI output of the LS300 in 10bit for 4K ?
Is it something that can be "fixed" with firmware upgrades or it will never happen?

By the way... the new GH5 has been unveiled.. and .. mygod... 400mbits, 6K at 24p or 4K at 60p,... that will be a game changer as the 5D was at it's time. Still... many features will be available only in 9 months and still misses XLR inputs etc etc...

After all, the LS300 is now very cheap (there is an offer for 2.400€ + VAT until March with free 14-40 Zuiko lens here in Italy). Even if in a year time I'll regret my choice I'm sure I can sell it for a fair amount... or no?

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I hope that I am wrong, but I don't think the LS300 will ever be 10 bit through firmware upgrade. I think 10 biit will be reserved for a new model, LS400 or whatever. That said, I still think the LS300 is one heck of a camera for the price, and I don't think you can go wrong buying it. Nobody can predict what will happen a year or two from now. Will it be outdated, who knows? Technology moves so fast. But if you have work that you can use it for now, it will pay for itself quickly. I have only had mine since March 2016 and it has more than paid for itself.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Sure.. I work (not much lately here in Italy!).. but as I said.. I already own cameras.. is just that I feel I need a new all-in-one.. and.. yes.. I think I'll go for it.
Thanks,M

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

It can have xlr inputs: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...e_adapter.html

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Yeah.. I kn ew about third party XLR thingies... now thanks to you I've discovered there is a Panasonic one:
It gets more and more difficult !!! :(

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Bottom line for run-and-gun video shooting: You want a sharp fast auto-focus lens with image stabilization combined with electronic zoom for precise framing and ZERO focus shift. Light weight, XLR inputs, HDMI output, and wifi streaming are also very desirable. There are numerous camcorders with built-in zooms like this, but only one with a detachable lens mount:

JVC LS300 with Panasonic 42.5mm f1.7 Power-OIS prime lens

And no, it's not 10-bit, but the LS300's 4:2:2 8-bit 50Mbps 1080p internal recordings meet BBC broadcast quality standands. Since the LS300's HDMI output is likewise 4:2:2 8-bit color, external recorders don't offer a significant boost in image quality.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Thank you.
I am not sure I want a prime lens. 42 (on a Super35 should be around a 64 on full frame), zooming electronically will get to.. let's say.. double.... 120mm equivalent. Nice zoom but will miss a wide angle. I was looking into Panasonic 14-140. To use by hand... and a little darker.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I might be asking too much now, and it might be out of subject, but I am really interested in understanding how these camera work regarding sensor, bits and compression. This is as I understand it (obviously simplifing)

SENSOR captures image at 12 bit at the max. speed possible it's able (from latest FW upgrade we understand that LS300 is capable at least of 60p at 4k)
SENSOR Passes 12 bit image to a PRE-PROCESSOR (thus there is bandwidth from sensor to pre-processor)
PRE-PROCESSOR creates a 10bit (or 8bit... we don't know) image eventually applying color setting, or LUT
PRE PROCESSOR sends image to PROCESSOR (so there is bandwidth between PRE-PROCESSOR and PROCESSOR or full non compressed video, either in 10bit or only in 8bit) and/or to DIRECT OUTPUTS
PROCESSOR compresses image to whatever standard we selected (ie: 50mbit, 422, HD) and sends it to the RECORDER (thus there is bandwidth maximum, in the LS300 for example here we write 150mbit)

So.. as far as I understand it, there is enough bandwidth to pass RAW signal from sensor to PRE-PROCESSOR at 12bit and enough bandwidth to pass uncompressed/colour-fixed signal (we don't know if 10bit or 8bit only) from the PRE-PROCESSOR to both direct outputs and/or PROCESSOR for compressing and then recording.

Am I correct until now?

Let's say the bandwidth between pre-processor and processor is "only" 422 1080p FullHD 60p should be around 1,2Gbit. The same bandwidth could be used for a 10bit transmisson, for example for Full HD 25p 422... but is this technically possible? Can the pre-processor be firmware upgraded to do 10bit (keeping the bandwidth limit) ?

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I'd suggest you get the Panasonic 12-35 and 35-100 lenses. You'll get at least a 24-200 equivalent at fairly constant f2.8 and they can bought at very reasonable prices. Otherwise you have non-stabilised Olympus lenses which offer better zoom ranges, are better built, but more expensive.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I think it goes roughly by 1,5x .. it is a MFT mount but a Super35 sensor

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

What... Crop Factor? Yes it's 1.5x or there abouts.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

The optical stabilization (Power-OIS) on the Panasonic f2.8 zooms is unstable when panning, making them hunt and stutter no matter how smoothly you finish your pan. Combine that with their focus shift and iris flicker while zooming, and you get an unsatisfactory electronic simulation of a mechanical zoom lens. That's why I recommend the Panasonic 42.5mm f1.7 prime - it's the only LS300-compatible lens I've found that has stable OIS suitable for video shooting.

Also, the Panasonic 14-140mm zooms are even worse choices for video than the f2.8 zooms. They are consumer lenses intended for use in sunlit auto-everything mode.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

The 14-140 is nearly unusable in natural light indoor conditions on the LS300, a very dark lens. For whatever reason it works better on the GH cameras in the same conditions. Works OK with bright lights.

I have never used anything but primes on the LS300 and with the Virtual Zoom it's covered all my filming needs.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

More and more confused....

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

@Marcello I was in the same situation last summer. Do I get the LS300 or the Ursa Mini 4K? I had a fixed budget so I could only afford one of those. In the end I got the LS300 and all is fine :)

If you want 10bit, forget the LS300, just get a GH5... Indeed as soon as the GH5 goes down a little bit in price, I will sell my Nikon and get a GH5 as a 2nd cam

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Marcello, this was all shot handheld with the 12-35 (and a little of 35-100), I used a very basic shoulder support and I had two radio mic receivers hanging on my back pockets:
It's a run and gun type job, where I have no control over the initial judging session. The interviews are done very quickly, one take each, just a camera light and handheld shotgun mic.

Personally I've found the 12-35/35-100 combo to be alright for video work. Nowhere near as good as a proper stabilised video lens, but usable. They do sometimes 'stick' a little on the subject at the start of a move, but I find if I perform a more determined move, the sticking is masked by the move. If i'm holding a sustained long handheld shot and I'm tired then the stabilisation with cause the picture to drift around a little but it's not a nasty jumping, I can live with it. YMMV.

I don't often zoom shots on the lens, I prefer slower creeping VSM zooms or do it in post. Also the exposure jumps while zooming on the lens aren't all that bad in my experience.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Thank you Duncan... Yes.. seems to work fine for me. Thing is I own many EF lenses and I'd like to avoid start buing many MFT ones... As I said, if yI could find a one-soeds-it-all would be great, otherwise, my one-does-it-all could be my 24-105mm EF. Is a 4.0 but with a Metabone will become faster.

PS. Is it just an impression or REDS shift to MAGENTA a bit? I found this also in some JLog files I found on the net. Am I wrong?

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I've found this test that is really interesting... What do you think?

By the way.. Many people seem to have problem with the ND. Could a firmware update at least display a huge ND ON sign for 3 seconds to tell people they might havetouched the jog wheel ?

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

No problem here, the ND does not accidentally turn on, you have to physically turn the knob, at least, that's my experience, it also says in the viewfinder if the ND is off or if on what ND you have selected.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

What I read is that many people touch it by accident either using focus or follow focus or by holding the camera with the palm underneath.... Also, it should show it in the LCD too as the VF seems to be really sh** and unusable.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I use a rig. I never turned on/off the ND by accident. Could never understand what all these "problems" with the ND knob where about. Since this is a mechanical knob, it has to be located on the front between the lens and sensor. It could be that some people do not like the location of the knob.... well no camera is perfect. I use BM Ursa Mini, I use RED... they all have some cons, because every person works different

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Agreed, no problems here.

It would be nice if the knob could be made shorter somehow so that it doesn't protrude from the front of the camera, then you could fit an Aputure DEC or Regain onto the LS300.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Don't know... just that almost every review seems to talk about it. I guess it was quite complicated to fit an ND on a MFT mount with interchangable lens... anyway...

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

It does show in the VF and side monitor, they both show the same information. I have never ever used the VF on the LS300. In fact I pulled the eyecup off and left it that way.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

@Marcello I started to smile when some days ago Uematsu-san of Panasonic said its impossible to put an nd filter on MFT, when he was interviewed about the new GH5

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

It does show on the viewfinder and the lcd.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I use the viewfinder sometimes, outdoors in bright sun. It's not great, but it is usable.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I have a Hoodman EX1 loupe which fits the LS300 very well, and allows for use of the joystick. It's quite heavy though.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

People accidentally turn it instead of the exposure knob which is nearby. I made the mistake once, learned my lesson and have never done it again. It is listed in the LCD/VF as on unless one has the indicators turned off.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

I've been using the LS300 for nearly two years for docs, and still think it's the best option out there for most things... My issue has been 8 bit, but to be honest, the LS delivers images that can intercut with my 10 bit Pocket and Micro cameras seamlessly (shooting ProRes) - with a little tweaking... If you're exposures are good on the LS, the only problem is banding that appears sometimes during long fades to black - and there can be blocking in shadows if you use a heavy overlay...

I never use the built in finder - or seldom the LCD, except for menus or a quick look by my partner to check the frame... I have a Gratical X that I bought because I figured it would be relatively future-proof, and I can use it on my other cameras with HDMI... But I also regularly use one of my older Z-Finder Pros, which is a more affordable option... Mine are mounted on a simple rod block that I made, it makes handheld to tripod an easy switch...

Most complaints come from people who use the JVC handheld as a "handycam".. In my opinion there's nothing handy about a handycam... I've posted this pic before, but it shows my setup, which is near perfect... The controller on the side starts and stops recording, and the zoom toggle is set for the VSM... It's an incredibly versatile camera with the configuration....

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Cool setup! But isn't that very front heavy since the shoulderpad is on the back? I have shot "handycamstyle" all day using a springloaded mini-monopod that was attached to a vest, that took all weight from my arms.

Re: Just about to get a LS3000 ... my concerns
 

Hi Steve,
Can you tell me more avou this. i don't understand.. what uou mean by FADE... you are talking about a dissolve in editing? Same for overlay... you mean an effect on top in editing?
I don't understand why the camera dhould have problema only in editing.
If they are there they shpuld come up in grading, if not then they don't come up...
But I cam't understand why only with a second layer on top (dissolve or overlay).

Thanks