New JVC HD Everio camcorders at DVinfo.net

Paulo Teixeira · January 30th, 2008, 03:24 PM

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4746202&EDATE=

Mike Brown · January 30th, 2008, 03:37 PM

1080p60 recording sounds amazing. But the article doesn't say what codec is being used. Even with the H.264 codec (if that's what it is), 1080p60 images would need a rather high bitrate. And I wonder how many existing editing suites can handle such a stream.

The HD specs foresaw 720p60 as the standard format for 60 frames/second recording. But the industry (and presumably its customers) seems dead set on having those big, beautiful 1080x1920 pixel images at all costs. Who knew that it would turn out to be such a numbers game? Maybe the megapixel race in still cameras should have provided a clue.

With images of this size, picture quality will be heavily influenced by the codec.

Paulo Teixeira · January 30th, 2008, 03:43 PM

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl...%3Den%26sa%3DG

It’s really 1080i. They claim to use a special process that outputs 1080p to your TV thru HDMI.

Mike Brown · January 30th, 2008, 03:55 PM

Thanks, Paulo. If I interpret the translation correctly, the image is recorded as 1080i60. The claimed 1080p60 output seems to be a playback function ... possibly with in-camera uprezzing (my guess, not what the article says). If that's the case, I would feel a bit misled by the publicity, as that's not the same thing as recording natively at 1080p60.

There's also a pixel-shifting process in the sensor to gain resolution, which sounds similar to that used in the Panasonic HVX200.

In any case, it seems to have potential. But I gather that we are not going to get native 1080p60 recording in this price range anytime soon. Other bottlenecks in the workflow, including the HD specifications and the codec, simply don't allow for 1080p60 recording at present.

Ron Evans · January 30th, 2008, 04:12 PM

I think this is much like the announced Sony SR11 and SR12. The announcement specifically says out of the HDMI port which I take to mean in the live mode so that one could record to a Blackmagic Intensity card for instance.

Ron Evans

David Parks · January 30th, 2008, 05:27 PM

http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=643&pageID=1

More detailed press release.

Steve Nunez · January 30th, 2008, 05:36 PM

I'm not gonna get too excited this time- their last tries clipped highlights too easily and lacked sharpness and dynamic range and had terrible IS.
At least they've kept Mpeg-2 TS which is good but it looks like the same specs on the sensor.....1/5" X3=very small and usually bad low light!

This time I'm waiting for someone else to buy- I'm not 1st in line.

Jack Zhang · January 30th, 2008, 05:47 PM

I think affordable 1080p60 recording will enter the professional market first in the form of a ExpressCard/Flash based recorder. (Expensive 1080p60 already exists but is way out of the price range of the typical DV/HDV end-user)

Mike Brown · January 31st, 2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks

http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=643&pageID=1

More detailed press release.

Excerpts: "JVC’s new HD Gigabrid video engine ... processes in full 1920 x 1080 progressive video. By enabling output of a 1080p 60 fps progressive signal ... using the same high-power Genessa technology as in JVC’s advanced displays, conversion to 1920 x 1080p at 60 fps provides seamless natural video."

If the video engine is natively progressive, why is there an I/P conversion? As one example, I could imagine that the capture is at 1080p/30, gets interlaced to 1080i/60, and then converted to 1080p/60 (which may have only 540 lines of vertical resolution). The Japanese press release mentioned both P/I and I/P converters.

Marketing 1080p/60 capability leaves me feeling a bit queasy, because I suspect that full 1080p/60 resolution may not be present all the way through the signal processing path, from sensor to HDMI output. The mention of interlacing and conversion is what leads me to believe that. So, will the 1080p/60 picture quality output by the camcorder be any better than feeding a 1080i/60 output to a 1080p/60 display, and letting the display handle the conversion? That's the bottom line question.

Ken Hodson · January 31st, 2008, 03:22 PM

The previous HD Eveiro also had progressive chips, and also recorded the stream as 60i. I believe these new cams will be the exact same. They capture 1080i to disk to save on file size. The cost and power requirements of a 1080p60 encoder would not be practical in this type of product. When you go live HDMi out, it allows you to take the live 60p image out, pre compression.
All of these cams use aggressive pixel shifting to achieve the 1080p, which most cams do. Its original sensor rez is about the same as a HVX200. I am hoping they have made some tweaks to what were the weaknesses of the previous HD Eveiro.
I would have much preferred to see these cams capture 720p60 to disk instead of 1080i, but JVC knows consumers buy big numbers and perceive that equals better image.

John C. Butler · February 8th, 2008, 01:27 PM

Ooh, these don't look too good. The main appeal of the first HD Everio was its mammoth lens and manual control, which was the compromise for pixel shifted, interlaced, somewhat grainy video. Now the control is gone and there is just really lousy faux progressive pixel shifted video. I was hoping the next HD camcorder JVC released would be a true HD version of the HD7, which would be great.

January 30th, 2008, 03:24 PM	#1
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	New JVC HD Everio camcorders http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4746202&EDATE= __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

January 30th, 2008, 03:43 PM	#3
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl...%3Den%26sa%3DG It’s really 1080i. They claim to use a special process that outputs 1080p to your TV thru HDMI. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

January 30th, 2008, 05:27 PM	#6
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=643&pageID=1 More detailed press release. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

January 30th, 2008, 05:36 PM	#7
Steve Nunez Trustee Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida Posts: 1,418	I'm not gonna get too excited this time- their last tries clipped highlights too easily and lacked sharpness and dynamic range and had terrible IS. At least they've kept Mpeg-2 TS which is good but it looks like the same specs on the sensor.....1/5" X3=very small and usually bad low light! This time I'm waiting for someone else to buy- I'm not 1st in line. __________________ Steve Nunez-New York City www.stevenunez.com

January 31st, 2008, 03:22 PM	#10
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	The previous HD Eveiro also had progressive chips, and also recorded the stream as 60i. I believe these new cams will be the exact same. They capture 1080i to disk to save on file size. The cost and power requirements of a 1080p60 encoder would not be practical in this type of product. When you go live HDMi out, it allows you to take the live 60p image out, pre compression. All of these cams use aggressive pixel shifting to achieve the 1080p, which most cams do. Its original sensor rez is about the same as a HVX200. I am hoping they have made some tweaks to what were the weaknesses of the previous HD Eveiro. I would have much preferred to see these cams capture 720p60 to disk instead of 1080i, but JVC knows consumers buy big numbers and perceive that equals better image. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 30th, 2008, 03:37 PM	#2
Mike Brown Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nanuet NY Posts: 74	1080p60 recording sounds amazing. But the article doesn't say what codec is being used. Even with the H.264 codec (if that's what it is), 1080p60 images would need a rather high bitrate. And I wonder how many existing editing suites can handle such a stream. The HD specs foresaw 720p60 as the standard format for 60 frames/second recording. But the industry (and presumably its customers) seems dead set on having those big, beautiful 1080x1920 pixel images at all costs. Who knew that it would turn out to be such a numbers game? Maybe the megapixel race in still cameras should have provided a clue. With images of this size, picture quality will be heavily influenced by the codec.

January 30th, 2008, 03:55 PM	#4
Mike Brown Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nanuet NY Posts: 74	Thanks, Paulo. If I interpret the translation correctly, the image is recorded as 1080i60. The claimed 1080p60 output seems to be a playback function ... possibly with in-camera uprezzing (my guess, not what the article says). If that's the case, I would feel a bit misled by the publicity, as that's not the same thing as recording natively at 1080p60. There's also a pixel-shifting process in the sensor to gain resolution, which sounds similar to that used in the Panasonic HVX200. In any case, it seems to have potential. But I gather that we are not going to get native 1080p60 recording in this price range anytime soon. Other bottlenecks in the workflow, including the HD specifications and the codec, simply don't allow for 1080p60 recording at present.

January 30th, 2008, 04:12 PM	#5
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I think this is much like the announced Sony SR11 and SR12. The announcement specifically says out of the HDMI port which I take to mean in the live mode so that one could record to a Blackmagic Intensity card for instance. Ron Evans

January 30th, 2008, 05:47 PM	#8
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	I think affordable 1080p60 recording will enter the professional market first in the form of a ExpressCard/Flash based recorder. (Expensive 1080p60 already exists but is way out of the price range of the typical DV/HDV end-user)

February 8th, 2008, 01:27 PM	#11
John C. Butler Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Woodbury, New Jersey Posts: 30	Ooh, these don't look too good. The main appeal of the first HD Everio was its mammoth lens and manual control, which was the compromise for pixel shifted, interlaced, somewhat grainy video. Now the control is gone and there is just really lousy faux progressive pixel shifted video. I was hoping the next HD camcorder JVC released would be a true HD version of the HD7, which would be great.