JVC Says that the split screen can be fixed

John Mitchell · October 19th, 2005, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren

It looks like Greg was spot on about the calibration and firmware. I have not been here in some time because of the above noise - too bad that's not fixable in firmware either :)

There was some earlier discussion though that heat and progressive scan were the issues - perhaps explaining why it's shown up in unexpected situations. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting an HD100 but the HVX is still on my HD shopping list. Has anyone heard recently that the calibration can drift if temps go up?

Sorry Stephen that's my fault, I brought up heat in another thread - it was merely speculation on the part of the JVC engineer that I was talking to that the automated calibration might not be working properly on some units because of temperature, not so much field performance.

Chris Hurd · October 19th, 2005, 08:50 AM

Thread closed -- Some Brand X vs. Brand Y platform bashing removed -- some all caps shouting converted -- thread re-opened.

Stephen van Vuuren · October 19th, 2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Sorry Stephen that's my fault, I brought up heat in another thread - it was merely speculation on the part of the JVC engineer that I was talking to that the automated calibration might not be working properly on some units because of temperature, not so much field performance.

Okay thanks - so many posts on SSE, hard to keep track.

Laszlo Horvath · October 19th, 2005, 10:08 AM

Adrian, I use this camera for weddings, if you want to check the picture quality, here is the links. Take about 20 mins. to download with hi-speed.
I very happy with this cameara, I ready to buy one more.
I don't have a splitscreen effect at all at any situation.
I tried other HDV camera but I sent it back, and I ended up with this one.
I love it.
I hope these little footages help for your decision.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7D4VC6EV

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2F2ZFXKG

Laszlo

Steve Mullen · October 19th, 2005, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Sorry Stephen that's my fault, I brought up heat in another thread - it was merely speculation on the part of the JVC engineer that I was talking to that the automated calibration might not be working properly on some units because of temperature, not so much field performance.

You are correct about heat! JVC now recommends a 5 minute warm-up.

By the way I wasn't shouting -- only differentiating my answers to your points as quickly as possible!!!

Anyway, I think it's now clear that:

1) There may have been, many months ago firmware specifically to decrease SSE -- or firmware that modified any of the functions that could affect SSE. It seems likely that was done before any units shipped to PAL areas.

2) The factory calibration was discovered, via these PAL models in the field, to not yield acceptable camcorders. Or, the PAL region managers said to hell with SSE, we want the units because IBC is coming. Who knows the truth?

3) The USA said "no way" and waited for firmware that improved calibration. And, it looks like they may re-calibrate ALL or a statistical SAMPLE of the incoming units. Who knows the truth?

4) This firmware can be installed on the PAL units and they will be recalibrated.

5) Calibration is never a BINARY process. At it's simplest it means running X tests and checking if the camera meets Y specs. At it's best, a skilled tek can take hours and beat these specs -- perhaps by a significant amount. Perhaps even totally eliminating SSE.

6) Since time is money -- I'm simply suggesting that JVC offer a "Premium Tune-up" that optimizes all aspects of the camcorder. In reality, you can bet that if CNN buys a hundred of these you can bet JVC will provide them with full information and CNN will calibrate every one!

In fact, any big name renter or buyer will be able to calibrate their units. Think of the Panavision mods to the CineAlta. Hell, someone here could start a business buying HD100's and adding all the film options and calibrating them. Then sell for $10K.

Barry Green · October 19th, 2005, 06:35 PM

Just got off the phone with a JVC factory technician, and he basically confirmed everything Steve's been saying.

There is split-screen in every camera manufactured, and it's not going away.

The confusion between US and non-US cameras has to do with the delay between US and non-US units. non-US territories received their product long before the US did. Non-US territories are now receiving the same level of firmware that the US is using. The version that I have (version 1.17) is the latest, and that's what everyone else is getting too.

The splitscreen is not going away. It will be with the HD100 forever. It cannot be "fixed", it can only be minimized by not shooting in low light circumstances, etc.

He did say that units that haven't "warmed up" yet are more prone to showing the effect, so after it's been on for five minutes it should be more accurately self-calibrated than it is straight out of the box.

He said that you can also sometimes notice the autocalibration in effect when changing gain levels -- sometimes you boost the gain and see the split-screen but it goes away after a couple of seconds. That's the calibration at work.

But there are scenarios where you're going to see split-screen. It is the nature of the beast. And it will not go away. Those who are claiming their cameras don't have it, probably don't know where to look for it, but he says they all have it and it's the price they (and you) have to pay to get a native-pixel 1/3" HD imager at this price point.

Stephen van Vuuren · October 19th, 2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

But there are scenarios where you're going to see split-screen. It is the nature of the beast. And it will not go away. Those who are claiming their cameras don't have it, probably don't know where to look for it, but he says they all have it and it's the price they (and you) have to pay to get a native-pixel 1/3" HD imager at this price point.

Thanks Barry - any thoughts of if this is infact true - that all native pixel 1/3" HD progressive imagers will have this effect? Sure throwing some CPU and DSP power at the issue would deal with it?

Stephen L. Noe · October 19th, 2005, 07:38 PM

In addition to Barry's post. I was told by JVC that the issue is the circuit does not update fast enough to make split screen not noticeable. I believe this information (along with Barry's post) is not the entire story. I do believe the camera can be calibrated to different tolerance levels (as witnessed by another user in Jakarta) by a technician that can take the time with the camera.

I was told 9db out of the box and I'll hold them to it. Later down the line, if the camera goes "out of tune", I'd be willing to pay a tech to get it back into spec and chalk it up to the price of business. The camera is most certainly worth 5-6K.

Jiri Bakala · October 19th, 2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

Yet, the HD100 is selling like hot cakes. Go figure.

I don't think so...not as far as I was told by a JVC dealer here in BC.

Michael Maier · October 19th, 2005, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

I don't think so...not as far as I was told by a JVC dealer here in BC.

I wonder why I was in line for almost 2 months before I got mine then.

Jiri Bakala · October 19th, 2005, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

I wonder why I was in line for almost 2 months before I got mine then.

Early adopters. Simple. My dealer has had their in-house/demo unit for weeks now and everyone is waiting to see what's going to happen.

Michael Maier · October 19th, 2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

Early adopters. Simple. My dealer has had their in-house/demo unit for weeks now and everyone is waiting to see what's going to happen.

Yet, people reporting to have just bought the camera are popping up all over the place online. This is just the online community. If you count all the other people who don’t post it (which is the majority), then you have no telling.
Waiting you say? You do realize that the huge majority has no idea of the so-called SSE, right? Just the online community knows. But anyways, I still don't understand all the fuzz about it. I have been shooting with the HD100 for over a week now and have never seen SSE in my normal footage, night or day.

Adrian Vallarino · October 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM

So, anybody knows how many have been actulay sold?

Adrian

____________________________________________________
Al zodape de naco que me saca los mensajes se puede ir a la reconcha de la lora.

Chris Hurd · October 19th, 2005, 10:03 PM

Camera manufacturers seldom release that information, sorry.

Soroush Shahrokni · October 19th, 2005, 10:12 PM

Who cares how many are sold. I know 90% of those who have one are very satisfied with the camera. Barry Green is correct, in those cases that I have seen SSE have been when the camera was cold, after a few minutes of warmup it has dissapeared.

A friend of mine who is a experienced DP visited me to check out my camera and was intrested to see the infamous SSE in person. We hooked it up to a projector and we could see it when we zoomed in to a dark area on a white wall, but after a couple of minutes we could no longer see it, not even with +18db!

I guess Im one of the lucky owners as I rarely see the SSE, I have tried to force it by all means and I have seen it about 3-4 times since I recieved it. I might have been able to avoid those situations as well if I had let the camera get warm up!

The bad thing about the camera is that its not so light sensitive and is a bit noisy, but tell me one HDV camera that is light sensitive (compared to DV cams)?!

October 19th, 2005, 08:50 AM	#62
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Thread closed -- Some Brand X vs. Brand Y platform bashing removed -- some all caps shouting converted -- thread re-opened. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2005, 10:08 AM	#64
Laszlo Horvath Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: LaSalle Ontario Canada Posts: 289 Images: 5	Happy owner Adrian, I use this camera for weddings, if you want to check the picture quality, here is the links. Take about 20 mins. to download with hi-speed. I very happy with this cameara, I ready to buy one more. I don't have a splitscreen effect at all at any situation. I tried other HDV camera but I sent it back, and I ended up with this one. I love it. I hope these little footages help for your decision. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7D4VC6EV http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2F2ZFXKG Laszlo

October 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM	#73
Adrian Vallarino Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bevery Hills, CA Posts: 48	How many sold? So, anybody knows how many have been actulay sold? Adrian ____________________________________________________ Al zodape de naco que me saca los mensajes se puede ir a la reconcha de la lora.

October 19th, 2005, 10:03 PM	#74
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Camera manufacturers seldom release that information, sorry. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2005, 06:35 PM	#66
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Just got off the phone with a JVC factory technician, and he basically confirmed everything Steve's been saying. There is split-screen in every camera manufactured, and it's not going away. The confusion between US and non-US cameras has to do with the delay between US and non-US units. non-US territories received their product long before the US did. Non-US territories are now receiving the same level of firmware that the US is using. The version that I have (version 1.17) is the latest, and that's what everyone else is getting too. The splitscreen is not going away. It will be with the HD100 forever. It cannot be "fixed", it can only be minimized by not shooting in low light circumstances, etc. He did say that units that haven't "warmed up" yet are more prone to showing the effect, so after it's been on for five minutes it should be more accurately self-calibrated than it is straight out of the box. He said that you can also sometimes notice the autocalibration in effect when changing gain levels -- sometimes you boost the gain and see the split-screen but it goes away after a couple of seconds. That's the calibration at work. But there are scenarios where you're going to see split-screen. It is the nature of the beast. And it will not go away. Those who are claiming their cameras don't have it, probably don't know where to look for it, but he says they all have it and it's the price they (and you) have to pay to get a native-pixel 1/3" HD imager at this price point.

October 19th, 2005, 07:38 PM	#68
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	In addition to Barry's post. I was told by JVC that the issue is the circuit does not update fast enough to make split screen not noticeable. I believe this information (along with Barry's post) is not the entire story. I do believe the camera can be calibrated to different tolerance levels (as witnessed by another user in Jakarta) by a technician that can take the time with the camera. I was told 9db out of the box and I'll hold them to it. Later down the line, if the camera goes "out of tune", I'd be willing to pay a tech to get it back into spec and chalk it up to the price of business. The camera is most certainly worth 5-6K.

October 19th, 2005, 10:12 PM	#75
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	Who cares how many are sold. I know 90% of those who have one are very satisfied with the camera. Barry Green is correct, in those cases that I have seen SSE have been when the camera was cold, after a few minutes of warmup it has dissapeared. A friend of mine who is a experienced DP visited me to check out my camera and was intrested to see the infamous SSE in person. We hooked it up to a projector and we could see it when we zoomed in to a dark area on a white wall, but after a couple of minutes we could no longer see it, not even with +18db! I guess Im one of the lucky owners as I rarely see the SSE, I have tried to force it by all means and I have seen it about 3-4 times since I recieved it. I might have been able to avoid those situations as well if I had let the camera get warm up! The bad thing about the camera is that its not so light sensitive and is a bit noisy, but tell me one HDV camera that is light sensitive (compared to DV cams)?!