Avid vs Premiere/Aspect HD at DVinfo.net

Chris Fields · March 6th, 2006, 11:01 PM

Hello,
Please forgive my ignorance, as I am rather new to this field.
I have a HD100, and need to do a small project, and am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the advantages of Avid over Premiere with Aspect HD. I am familiar with Premiere, but Avid is new to me, and I would need to learn it very quickly. I am trying to capture, edit and export to Betacam SP, and also DVD with as little quality degredation as possible. This will be aired in SD 4:3, not HD, but shot in HD 16:9.
So my question is, will Premiere work? or should I invest in Avid HD?

Thanks heaps for any help or advice.

Chris

Stephen L. Noe · March 6th, 2006, 11:29 PM

I'd say stick with Premiere/Aspect if you're used to using it. Avid "XpressProHD" is no friend of HDV and the guys on the Avid boards have all kinds of problems handling HDV. Avid "Liquid 7" is their product that edits HDV natively and works like a charm in all modes of the HD-100.

Tim Holtermann · March 6th, 2006, 11:46 PM

Chris,

Premiere and Cineform AspectHD is the better choice. Just for fun a while back I tried a demo of the Avid package and it would crash on statup constantly. Bad!

That aside, you could burn your DVD stratight from Premiere or Export to their DVD Package if you want more control/features. The Cineform codec is like liquid butter, smooth, easy to edit, quality is excellent. I really don't see the reason to move to Avid (Not yet anyway).

Stephen L. Noe · March 7th, 2006, 12:13 AM

Tim,

Don't forget Avid is very diverse. Avid "Liquid" is highly recommended (by me) for the ProHD workflow. It works perfectly.

Liquid
HDV - Yes
DVCProHD - No

XpressProHD
HDV - No (not so good)
DVCProHD - Yes

Avid has sort of drawn the line (currently) in their product line. Liquid for HDV vs. XpressProHD for DVCProHD.

Jiri Bakala · March 7th, 2006, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Avid has sort of drawn the line (currently) in their product line. Liquid for HDV vs. XpressProHD for DVCProHD.

Well, Avid encompasses many different products and some on the higher end are just amazing and do HD of all kinds like a charm. AXP (Avid Xpress Pro) is awaiting an update that will be able to handle HDV natively. Yes, I admit that it is quite frustrating to wait while other, often much less expensive products are already working with HDV quite well. I personally hope and trust that WHEN Avid brings the new version(s) of HD-compatible editor (on a Mac) it will be very good. Having said that, if the product is destined to end in HDV or on a SD DVD, Adobe will be fine. If, however, it is a part of a project that ends up conformed on say a Symphony than the Avid advantage of vertical integration and compatibility kicks in. They'd better get cracking at it, though...

Chris Fields · March 7th, 2006, 01:20 AM

wow.. thank you all for the very informative replies. It seems I can probably do what I need on Premiere at a lower cost.
You guys have just saved me a lot of time, money and effort. THANK YOU!

Panos Bournias · March 7th, 2006, 09:44 AM

I use since a few months the Avid Pro HD 5.21 (If I am not wrong, there are three updates since I got the first version).
I never had any problems with the HD100 footage appart from the fact that is not editing 24p and 25p, we wait for this update to come soon. The BR50 is also updated and there are no drop outs anymore.
Avid's codec, DNXHD is very good, the files are smaller than the Cineform Avis and the quality, in my opinion, is better.
We cannot preview on a monitor yet but this is the same for premierpro and aspect HD; there we cannot even preview the footage while capturing on the desktop.
In my opinion Avid Pro HD 5...(They have a new update now 5.3?)
is a very good and stable program, very nice workflow, great organising of the footage and very good preview quality.
Exporting M2T from the timeline is also fully updated and has no problems anymore. No drops and perfect image quality. If though you are used to the envir. of premier pro the combination of this program with aspect HD is also good.
In my case, for narrative and documentary footage, I go for Avid.
Panos Bournias

Tim Holtermann · March 7th, 2006, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panos Bournias

DNXHD is very good, the files are smaller than the Cineform Avis and the quality, in my opinion, is better.

This is interesting...have you shot some footage and encoded the same exact set of frames with both programs to do this compare? I'd like to see it.

If you have to move up to a higher end Avid then you should use the desktop Avid. As far as liquid or otherwise - how are the editing features, the integration with audio packages, integration with FX packages? If you are PC based the Avid will not give you the same access to "feature" potential that Adobe will. There is something to be said being able to move your timeline into After Effects, Audition, etc.

Richard Alvarez · March 7th, 2006, 01:57 PM

Plenty of people use After Effects and Avid. Though many also use Boris as it opens right in the interface. And of course, Avid owns Protools so a lot of people do their audio in ProTools.

Still, I think for his purposes, staying with the Premiere interface and lower cost will serve him well.

Daniel Patton · March 7th, 2006, 04:45 PM

Chris,

Stick with what you know.

Also, something that no one has mentioned (unless I missed it), is that it might be a good idea to upgrade to the latest version of Premiere Pro 2.0 if you have not yet done so. It has far better interface functionality, I like it anyway, (although I noticed they are leaning more to the Avid "look", easier on the eyes regardless). And, if you use After Effects it has far better workflow integration with Premiere Pro 2 as well.

Panos Bournias · March 7th, 2006, 11:29 PM

Yes Tim, I have encoded the same footage in both cineform's AVI and DNxHD Avid and I think that the Avid codec looks better, has more accurate colors and contrast, is half the size of the Cineform's AVI and is created immediately after capture, no comforming-transcoding extra time.
They have posted at the: www.avid.com - the differences between DVCProHD, DNxHD, AVI - they claim that their codec performs better than the others.
I run the Adobe+Cineform on an HP-8200 and is not performing as well as the Avid.
I think that it will work better if you run it with an opteron system.
In any case the choice is based on your personal taste and at the end of the game both programs are good and work fine; the cineform being more complete for the ProHD familly... for the moment.
Panos Bournias

Chris Fields · March 8th, 2006, 02:00 AM

Since this shoot is on Friday, I think i will definately be using Premiere this time. However, It seems it may be a good idea to invest in Avid Xpress HD, and learn this when time permits. I do appreciate your responses, very helpful.
On a side note, do any of you know a good setting on the camera for slow motion, around 20-30% ?

thanks :)

Jiri Bakala · March 8th, 2006, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fields

It seems it may be a good idea to invest in Avid Xpress HD, and learn this when time permits.

Avid is a fantastic editor -- but it's deep and initially not as intuitive as others, requiring steeper learning curve. Once you learn it, though, you will be able to market yourself as an Avid editor - vast majority of high end television and film is edited on Avids. The before mentioned connection with ProTools for audio post is also a big plus.

Stephen L. Noe · March 8th, 2006, 09:15 AM

I think Jiri is referring to XpressPro. XpressPro is top of the line in most things but not in HDV. For HDV, Liquid is the top and that's one of the main reasons Avid bought Pinnacle. Nobody has more experience cutting MPEG2 than FAST all the way back to the DC1000. Jiri, I don't think it will be long until you get the Liquid HDV timeline (back end) put directly in XpressPro. That was stated as by Avid last year as one of their main goals for XpressPro. As it sits now, Liquid is the native editor offered by Avid and it works perfectly with ProHD in all modes.

have fun guys and keep shooting (and editing)...

BTW: Anyone wanting to see the workflow completly using Liquid and the HD-100 (to film and broadcast) I offer an invitation to our Chicago ProHD user group meeting on 20 May at SMS right in the heart of Chicago. Contact me for details.

March 6th, 2006, 11:01 PM	#1
Chris Fields Tourist Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 3	Avid vs Premiere/Aspect HD Hello, Please forgive my ignorance, as I am rather new to this field. I have a HD100, and need to do a small project, and am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the advantages of Avid over Premiere with Aspect HD. I am familiar with Premiere, but Avid is new to me, and I would need to learn it very quickly. I am trying to capture, edit and export to Betacam SP, and also DVD with as little quality degredation as possible. This will be aired in SD 4:3, not HD, but shot in HD 16:9. So my question is, will Premiere work? or should I invest in Avid HD? Thanks heaps for any help or advice. Chris

March 7th, 2006, 09:44 AM	#7
Panos Bournias Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 109	avid HDV I use since a few months the Avid Pro HD 5.21 (If I am not wrong, there are three updates since I got the first version). I never had any problems with the HD100 footage appart from the fact that is not editing 24p and 25p, we wait for this update to come soon. The BR50 is also updated and there are no drop outs anymore. Avid's codec, DNXHD is very good, the files are smaller than the Cineform Avis and the quality, in my opinion, is better. We cannot preview on a monitor yet but this is the same for premierpro and aspect HD; there we cannot even preview the footage while capturing on the desktop. In my opinion Avid Pro HD 5...(They have a new update now 5.3?) is a very good and stable program, very nice workflow, great organising of the footage and very good preview quality. Exporting M2T from the timeline is also fully updated and has no problems anymore. No drops and perfect image quality. If though you are used to the envir. of premier pro the combination of this program with aspect HD is also good. In my case, for narrative and documentary footage, I go for Avid. Panos Bournias

March 7th, 2006, 04:45 PM	#10
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	Chris, Stick with what you know. Also, something that no one has mentioned (unless I missed it), is that it might be a good idea to upgrade to the latest version of Premiere Pro 2.0 if you have not yet done so. It has far better interface functionality, I like it anyway, (although I noticed they are leaning more to the Avid "look", easier on the eyes regardless). And, if you use After Effects it has far better workflow integration with Premiere Pro 2 as well. __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

March 7th, 2006, 11:29 PM	#11
Panos Bournias Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 109	Avid codec Yes Tim, I have encoded the same footage in both cineform's AVI and DNxHD Avid and I think that the Avid codec looks better, has more accurate colors and contrast, is half the size of the Cineform's AVI and is created immediately after capture, no comforming-transcoding extra time. They have posted at the: www.avid.com - the differences between DVCProHD, DNxHD, AVI - they claim that their codec performs better than the others. I run the Adobe+Cineform on an HP-8200 and is not performing as well as the Avid. I think that it will work better if you run it with an opteron system. In any case the choice is based on your personal taste and at the end of the game both programs are good and work fine; the cineform being more complete for the ProHD familly... for the moment. Panos Bournias

March 6th, 2006, 11:29 PM	#2
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	I'd say stick with Premiere/Aspect if you're used to using it. Avid "XpressProHD" is no friend of HDV and the guys on the Avid boards have all kinds of problems handling HDV. Avid "Liquid 7" is their product that edits HDV natively and works like a charm in all modes of the HD-100.

March 6th, 2006, 11:46 PM	#3
Tim Holtermann Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 184	Chris, Premiere and Cineform AspectHD is the better choice. Just for fun a while back I tried a demo of the Avid package and it would crash on statup constantly. Bad! That aside, you could burn your DVD stratight from Premiere or Export to their DVD Package if you want more control/features. The Cineform codec is like liquid butter, smooth, easy to edit, quality is excellent. I really don't see the reason to move to Avid (Not yet anyway).

March 7th, 2006, 12:13 AM	#4
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Tim, Don't forget Avid is very diverse. Avid "Liquid" is highly recommended (by me) for the ProHD workflow. It works perfectly. Liquid HDV - Yes DVCProHD - No XpressProHD HDV - No (not so good) DVCProHD - Yes Avid has sort of drawn the line (currently) in their product line. Liquid for HDV vs. XpressProHD for DVCProHD.

March 7th, 2006, 01:20 AM	#6
Chris Fields Tourist Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 3	wow.. thank you all for the very informative replies. It seems I can probably do what I need on Premiere at a lower cost. You guys have just saved me a lot of time, money and effort. THANK YOU!

March 7th, 2006, 01:57 PM	#9
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Plenty of people use After Effects and Avid. Though many also use Boris as it opens right in the interface. And of course, Avid owns Protools so a lot of people do their audio in ProTools. Still, I think for his purposes, staying with the Premiere interface and lower cost will serve him well.

March 8th, 2006, 02:00 AM	#12
Chris Fields Tourist Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 3	Since this shoot is on Friday, I think i will definately be using Premiere this time. However, It seems it may be a good idea to invest in Avid Xpress HD, and learn this when time permits. I do appreciate your responses, very helpful. On a side note, do any of you know a good setting on the camera for slow motion, around 20-30% ? thanks :)

March 8th, 2006, 09:15 AM	#14
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	I think Jiri is referring to XpressPro. XpressPro is top of the line in most things but not in HDV. For HDV, Liquid is the top and that's one of the main reasons Avid bought Pinnacle. Nobody has more experience cutting MPEG2 than FAST all the way back to the DC1000. Jiri, I don't think it will be long until you get the Liquid HDV timeline (back end) put directly in XpressPro. That was stated as by Avid last year as one of their main goals for XpressPro. As it sits now, Liquid is the native editor offered by Avid and it works perfectly with ProHD in all modes. have fun guys and keep shooting (and editing)... BTW: Anyone wanting to see the workflow completly using Liquid and the HD-100 (to film and broadcast) I offer an invitation to our Chicago ProHD user group meeting on 20 May at SMS right in the heart of Chicago. Contact me for details.