Capture into FCP then downconvert to SD Pal? at DVinfo.net

Chris Jothi · July 4th, 2006, 12:51 PM

I am filming something for Channel Four in the UK in August and the channel has only officially accepted the Sony HDV 1080i format, and have yet to accept JVC's 720P HDV flavour.

C4 do not broadcast in HD, so I figure there is little point in worrying about their own concerns, however I do need to ensure that if I record using this camera, in 720P, it will be a fairly simple process of downgrading it to SD in post and delivering it to them on DigiBeta.

The editors use FCP5. Can you capture from this camera straight onto FCP and then down convert to SD Pal? Is it as simple as capturing in HDV, editing in HDV, and then exporting DV Pal? If so, great, if not, then I'm all ears as to how it should be done.

Cheers

Chris

Jaadgy Akanni · July 4th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Jothi

I am filming something for Channel Four in the UK in August and the channel has only officially accepted the Sony HDV 1080i format, and have yet to accept JVC's 720P HDV flavour.

C4 do not broadcast in HD, so I figure there is little point in worrying about their own concerns, however I do need to ensure that if I record using this camera, in 720P, it will be a fairly simple process of downgrading it to SD in post and delivering it to them on DigiBeta.

The editors use FCP5. Can you capture from this camera straight onto FCP and then down convert to SD Pal? Is it as simple as capturing in HDV, editing in HDV, and then exporting DV Pal? If so, great, if not, then I'm all ears as to how it should be done.

Chris, the answer is yes. I hear (i've never actually done it meeself) that converting from 720p HDV and 1080i gives you beautiful results, so you're ok-do your thing! I hope someone would chime in. Where's Paolo Ciccone when you need him:-)

Drew Curran · July 5th, 2006, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Jothi

The editors use FCP5. Can you capture from this camera straight onto FCP and then down convert to SD Pal? Is it as simple as capturing in HDV, editing in HDV, and then exporting DV Pal? If so, great, if not, then I'm all ears as to how it should be done.

Chris,

You can't as yet capture the JVC's 720p flavour into FCP 5. There are work-a-rounds tho.

Check these links out:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=65189

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56015

I use the first method and have converted to SD with excellent results.

Andrew

Tim Dashwood · July 5th, 2006, 09:47 AM

Chris,

I've shot in 720P25 and then captured a live downconvert to PAL from the BR-HD50 deck with TC. It works well, but you will need the deck and an anolog capture card (Kona or Decklink.)

If you only have the camera and firewire, you can capture 720P25 using HDVxDV, DVHSCap, or Lumiere HD and then simply batch downconvert the clips to PAL DV (or any other codec) with MPEG Streamclip. I have also done this and it works fine.

Hopefully the forthcoming update to FCP will include full 720P25 HDV support. Let's cross our fingers!

Antony Michael Wilson · July 5th, 2006, 10:51 AM

Chris

If you're working on a long-form commission for C4, you need to be VERY careful with your post workflow. Are you familiar with the C4 (or BBC) detailed delivery requirements? Have you been given detailed delivery requirements and advice by C4? Just ending up with your pictures on a DigiBeta tape is only a part of the story, I'm afraid. If you are working on a proper commission, I'd talk with the relevant commissioner and technical team if I were you. It might save a lot of heart ache. I'm only saying this because we've often been enlisted to sort things out after C4 or BBC technical failure from small indies' productions. It's less a question of what is acceptable to you, me or many genuine experts on this board and more a question of what the broadcaster demands. Whether the demands seem reasonable or not is irrelevant.

We are producing a 60-min. documentary for UK broadcast right now and we are shooting on the HD100, so I might be able to help you with your workflow. It can be a real pain if you're shooting HDV1 at 25fps and need to deliver a broadcast master!!!

Tony

Chris Jothi · July 8th, 2006, 04:21 AM

It sounds to me that JVC are clearly not as 'on the ball' as Sony were when launching the 720P flavour of HDV.

This format has been around for at least 10 months and Apple have yet to introduce an update that will allow straight capturing into FCP5.

When 1080i HDV came out FCP could not capture HDV, but Sony's sheer presence in the market meant Apple had to sort it out, and fast. Sure, it meant purchasing FCP5, but it happened.

I really think JVC messed up big time here. Thanks for all the emails Antony, will get back when I have figured out what my setup will be.

Is there any OFFICIAL date for when this is resolved? Can't imagine how the original HD100/101 users who bought the camera back in late '05 are feeling that FCP is still not ready for capturing the HDV format.

Really, it's unacceptable!

Antony Michael Wilson · July 8th, 2006, 06:25 AM

I'm not sure it's JVC's fault. They can't force Apple and Avid to do anything. At the JVC stand at IBC in 2005 there were Avid and Apple reps standing there promising full support 'within weeks'. I was there and I heard it with my own ears. It's not necessarily down to JVC if the big two NLE producers decide not to prioritise implementation of HDV1. I suspect JVC are hopping mad about it!

Edwin Beeler · July 10th, 2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

Chris,

I've shot in 720P25 and then captured a live downconvert to PAL from the BR-HD50 deck with TC. It works well, but you will need the deck and an anolog capture card (Kona or Decklink.)

If you only have the camera and firewire, you can capture 720P25 using HDVxDV, DVHSCap, or Lumiere HD and then simply batch downconvert the clips to PAL DV (or any other codec) with MPEG Streamclip. I have also done this and it works fine.

Hopefully the forthcoming update to FCP will include full 720P25 HDV support. Let's cross our fingers!

Maybe playback of 720p25/24 is also possible with Sony's new HVR-M25 (and then you could playback HDV2 and HDV1 and DV and DVCAM)? The brochure says it will play back 720p30 (HVR-M25U), and how about p25/24? Anybody who knows that? - thank you
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...amilybroch.pdf

Antony Michael Wilson · July 10th, 2006, 03:19 PM

The new Sony deck will play back HDV1 only via analogue, according to the release. That's nothing you can't already do on the BRHD50, which is cheaper. And the JVC deck plays back HDV via firewire, which will come in handy for HD100 owners (!) once Avid and Apple start to support HDV1 fully. I'm not sure the new Sony is worth it in Chris' situation. You could spend about half and have the Convergent interface and get HDSDI, Analogue component, R422, down-convert and cross-convert. The Sony deck makes a lot of sense for HDV2 shooters who need to play back HDV1 at a pinch but for now it seems the most expensive and least satisfactory solution.

However, I'm sure we will see a deck that does it all in the next 12 months - probably from Sony.

K. Forman · July 10th, 2006, 03:43 PM

What are those Sony decks going for? The site didn't mention it.

Antony Michael Wilson · July 10th, 2006, 06:31 PM

Actually, now I've taken a closer look at the specifications on the Sony website, it seems that this might be something of a red herring and that the HVRM25 only offers 720P cross-conversion via analogue outputs, NOT HDV1 playback. Can anyone who really knows the machines confirm this?

And one thing's for sure (whether they play back HDV1 recordings or not) neither of the new decks offer RS422 control, so - without firewire output for 720P or alternative deck control and TC output - these decks are certainly not much help to you, Chris. In fact, they are less useful to you than the camera itself as a tool for ingest.

The camera, the BRHD50 and one of the converters mentioned above (in a number of combinations) are the only hardware tools that make sense for most of us, I think.

July 4th, 2006, 12:51 PM	#1
Chris Jothi Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 74	Capture into FCP then downconvert to SD Pal? I am filming something for Channel Four in the UK in August and the channel has only officially accepted the Sony HDV 1080i format, and have yet to accept JVC's 720P HDV flavour. C4 do not broadcast in HD, so I figure there is little point in worrying about their own concerns, however I do need to ensure that if I record using this camera, in 720P, it will be a fairly simple process of downgrading it to SD in post and delivering it to them on DigiBeta. The editors use FCP5. Can you capture from this camera straight onto FCP and then down convert to SD Pal? Is it as simple as capturing in HDV, editing in HDV, and then exporting DV Pal? If so, great, if not, then I'm all ears as to how it should be done. Cheers Chris

July 5th, 2006, 09:47 AM	#4
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Chris, I've shot in 720P25 and then captured a live downconvert to PAL from the BR-HD50 deck with TC. It works well, but you will need the deck and an anolog capture card (Kona or Decklink.) If you only have the camera and firewire, you can capture 720P25 using HDVxDV, DVHSCap, or Lumiere HD and then simply batch downconvert the clips to PAL DV (or any other codec) with MPEG Streamclip. I have also done this and it works fine. Hopefully the forthcoming update to FCP will include full 720P25 HDV support. Let's cross our fingers! __________________ Tim Dashwood

July 10th, 2006, 03:43 PM	#10
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	What are those Sony decks going for? The site didn't mention it. __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

July 5th, 2006, 10:51 AM	#5
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Chris If you're working on a long-form commission for C4, you need to be VERY careful with your post workflow. Are you familiar with the C4 (or BBC) detailed delivery requirements? Have you been given detailed delivery requirements and advice by C4? Just ending up with your pictures on a DigiBeta tape is only a part of the story, I'm afraid. If you are working on a proper commission, I'd talk with the relevant commissioner and technical team if I were you. It might save a lot of heart ache. I'm only saying this because we've often been enlisted to sort things out after C4 or BBC technical failure from small indies' productions. It's less a question of what is acceptable to you, me or many genuine experts on this board and more a question of what the broadcaster demands. Whether the demands seem reasonable or not is irrelevant. We are producing a 60-min. documentary for UK broadcast right now and we are shooting on the HD100, so I might be able to help you with your workflow. It can be a real pain if you're shooting HDV1 at 25fps and need to deliver a broadcast master!!! Tony

July 8th, 2006, 04:21 AM	#6
Chris Jothi Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 74	It sounds to me that JVC are clearly not as 'on the ball' as Sony were when launching the 720P flavour of HDV. This format has been around for at least 10 months and Apple have yet to introduce an update that will allow straight capturing into FCP5. When 1080i HDV came out FCP could not capture HDV, but Sony's sheer presence in the market meant Apple had to sort it out, and fast. Sure, it meant purchasing FCP5, but it happened. I really think JVC messed up big time here. Thanks for all the emails Antony, will get back when I have figured out what my setup will be. Is there any OFFICIAL date for when this is resolved? Can't imagine how the original HD100/101 users who bought the camera back in late '05 are feeling that FCP is still not ready for capturing the HDV format. Really, it's unacceptable!

July 8th, 2006, 06:25 AM	#7
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	I'm not sure it's JVC's fault. They can't force Apple and Avid to do anything. At the JVC stand at IBC in 2005 there were Avid and Apple reps standing there promising full support 'within weeks'. I was there and I heard it with my own ears. It's not necessarily down to JVC if the big two NLE producers decide not to prioritise implementation of HDV1. I suspect JVC are hopping mad about it!

July 10th, 2006, 03:19 PM	#9
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	The new Sony deck will play back HDV1 only via analogue, according to the release. That's nothing you can't already do on the BRHD50, which is cheaper. And the JVC deck plays back HDV via firewire, which will come in handy for HD100 owners (!) once Avid and Apple start to support HDV1 fully. I'm not sure the new Sony is worth it in Chris' situation. You could spend about half and have the Convergent interface and get HDSDI, Analogue component, R422, down-convert and cross-convert. The Sony deck makes a lot of sense for HDV2 shooters who need to play back HDV1 at a pinch but for now it seems the most expensive and least satisfactory solution. However, I'm sure we will see a deck that does it all in the next 12 months - probably from Sony.

July 10th, 2006, 06:31 PM	#11
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Actually, now I've taken a closer look at the specifications on the Sony website, it seems that this might be something of a red herring and that the HVRM25 only offers 720P cross-conversion via analogue outputs, NOT HDV1 playback. Can anyone who really knows the machines confirm this? And one thing's for sure (whether they play back HDV1 recordings or not) neither of the new decks offer RS422 control, so - without firewire output for 720P or alternative deck control and TC output - these decks are certainly not much help to you, Chris. In fact, they are less useful to you than the camera itself as a tool for ingest. The camera, the BRHD50 and one of the converters mentioned above (in a number of combinations) are the only hardware tools that make sense for most of us, I think.