Isn't that an "Avid Arrogance" problem, not a JVC issue?

Convergent Flash XDR Ships With MXF and QT Support -

If Convergent can do it than why can't JVC? Convergent uses the same Sony MPEG 2 codecs.

I don't think it is matter of anyone's arrogance. Possibly, maybe, short-sighteness on JVC's part. Because mxf is used by Avid, Adobe Premiere, After Effects, Canopus Edius and others as the file format for editing the Sony MPEG 2 codecs, among other codecs. So it isn't just Avid that they're possibly leaving out.

You nailed it- the compression! It's like you'd try to convince me that jpeg or tiff are the way to go vs RAW in still photography.
With SHXC cards at 2TB and fast write/read speed (way above 35Mb/sec) neither the space or ability to write the signal is no longer the issue.

Personally, I don't care much about the improvement in technology. Finally a shoulder mounted XDCam EX capable camera that takes industry standard lights, batteries etc. Good enough for me.

The Sony EX cameras write an .mp4 file inside a proprietary folder structure. It's an mpeg2 codec, that writes to an mp4 container. Sony Vegas will NOT import that .mp4 file and it needs a rewrap to MXF. Thus it appears to me that NONE of these NLEs understand the XDCamEX codec and ALL need a rewrap.

Sony's MXF file format will not drop into Avid. Avid's MXF will not drop into Vegas (or anything else from what I can tell).

ProRes QT files apparently will drop into anything, though it is unknown to me if it will drop in with timecode in NLEs other than Avid.

The whole thing is a mess.

35mb/sec is still Highly compressed. It's still gop based mpg2, not iframe. (Even DVCProHD 100mb/s has compromises). But it's enough to make a major difference in footage results for those of us working on the cutting edge.
Regarding the file formats and codec, I think this is pretty clear:
HD VIDEO RECORDING
Recording media: 2x SDHC memory card Class 6
Video recording:
Video codec: MPEG2 Long GOP
File Format: Quick time format for Final Cut Pro/ISO .MP4 media file format

Many edit systems will support one of the above right now - others may offer it in the near future. To have a robust popular system supporting it natively with this deckless, fast workflow NOW, is more than any new HD format release to date has offered.

Personally, the more I find out, the more I think this camera suits my needs.

How much footage at highest setting.
 

Anyone know how many minutes a 32GB card will hold of the highest setting?

Here's the statement:

1) Native file recording—world's fastest shoot-to-edit workflow.
Native Final Cut Pro format
Edit immediately without conversion or transcoding


2) .MP4 file format
Available with optional SxS Media Recorder

Here's my take:

1) The camcorder has a built-in JVC MPEG-2 codec that records to SDHC cards. These files are wrapped as .MOV. It is not ProRes! To be edited by FCP, the audio will be PCM.

The JVC data sheet may have an error: "HQ mode:1920 x 1080/59.94i (.mov only)." Same for 50i. My reasoning is that "HQ" is the highest quality XDCAM EX setting and it would make no sense for it not to be supported by .mp4.


2) IF you add the add the SxS Media Recorder, MPEG-2 XDCAM EX data -- are wrapped as .MP4 and recorded to SxS. Both SP (25Mbps) and HQ (35Mbps) are supported.

Therefore, this is a path that's compatible with the Windows/OS X Sony Clip Browser. The Browser imports XDCAM EX for those NLE's -- like FCP via Log & Transfer -- that support native XDCAM EX editing. Premiere, for example, can also natively edit .MP4.

The Browser also can batch convert to other codecs -- such as DNxHD. Bottom-line, once you use the SxS Media Recorder, you get the full XDCAM EX workflows that already exist for your NLE.

However, according to Tim Dashwoods first post here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/jvc-pro-h...camcorder.html
The GY-HM100 will record 19, 25 and 35Mbps to SDHC cards.

This also includes the ProHD formats and 1440X1080 and 1920x1080 interlaced formats.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to think the HM700 would record these all to SDHC, even though the SXS recorder may add additional options?

Steve,

You could be right if you consider the SXS would handle a higher data rate than SDHC.

I do find it interesting that the HMC 100 can record to SDHC in all flavors without the SXS. It makes me wonder if Sony is twisting JVC's arm to sell SXS.

But this brochure is even more confusing. If you look at the boxed table on page 3 under 35 Mbits, there is an asterik by 1440x1080 60i and 50i that references the note ".mov only"

Which totally contradicts the specifications page that listed 192ox1080i as .mov only and no reference by 1440x1080.

So it is a clear as mud...

Hopefully Steve you will develop one of your great Handbook/Guides series for these cameras like you did for the HD7. It was invaluable. Because we're gonna need one.

Cheers, David

Jack, I think you typed 29 when you meant 19. Anyway, I've edited my post to reflect your correction. Thank you!


"... even though the SXS recorder may add additional options."

You're right, it's not obvious what the SxS Media Recorder brings to the table if all formats can also be recorded to SDHC. Some thoughts:

Is the SDHC card's FAT32 file system a limitation for long running shots when you to try to use them in FCP? Does FCP's Log & Transfer stitch multiple 4GB files on SDHC together without error?

Will there be media-reference time-code on SDHC files? Or, only intra-clip time-code?

David, it's possible SxS offers important capabilities not required by the 100 buyer or even some 700 buyers. Nevertheless, the Media Recorder may be a "must have" for many shooters.

EX1 does 16GB per hour.

Anyone think the viewfinder could possibly be backwards compatible with the HD200? It doesnt look like it to me, but I can hope.

I am interested to see how the 14x Canon glass performs.

Unfortunately the new LCOS viewfinder is *not* backward-compatible with the GY-HD series cameras.

Sorry, Brian, that's not what I'm saying. JVC's proprietary tech can record direct to SDHC on both new cameras, but to do so on the HM700 requires the presence of the SxS adapter.

Thanks for your patience, Brian... Tim and I had a very busy, lightening-fast trip to Manhattan for back-to-back JVC and Panasonic press meetings, and Tim worked on some interesting stereo photography exercises in the city, plus we squeezed in a screening of "Fanboys" in Times Square. I've only just now returned to fire up the office. It's going to take a little time to get this stuff out.

Yes the HM700 can record all those formats direct to its SDHC card slots, as long as the SxS adapter is attached to the camera.

Whatever the reason may be, the main thing to note is that the HM100 can record XDCAM EX directly to SDHC. And while it can also be done on the HM700, to do so requires the presence of the SxS adapter on the camera.

All formats can be recorded to the SDHC card slots only if the SXS Media Reader is attached to the camera, otherwise the .MP4 (XDCAM EX) recording options aren't available. What the SxS Media reader brings to the table is basically a handshake that enables XDCAM recording on the HM700. Since it's not required for the smaller HM100 camera, it's most likely a licensing provision established by Sony... that's my take on it anyway.

You're right; the SxS Media Recorder will be a "must have" for anyone wanting to record XDCAM EX to the SDHC card slots on the HM700. I'm just wondering if it's possible to use the MxR solution (SDHC card with Express Card adapter) in the SxS media reader instead of an actual SxS card...?

Chris, Thanks for taking the time to clarify the SXS confusion. Look forward to more info from yourself and Tim.

Chris,
can we hope for some impressions or maybe even footage from the GY-HM100 too or did you only deal with the HM700?
Thanks,
Matthias

Hi Matthias, even though the HM100 was announced earlier, the HM700 is closer to being a finished product. Tim shot a little bit with the HM100 in January, but that camera was only about 85% complete and there were too many functions (such as image stabilization, most notably) that had yet to be enabled... so we were reluctant to show video from it as any clips would *not* be accurately representative of a finished version.

The HM700, on the other hand, is much closer to completion and will be released before the HM100. The camera that Tim and I saw in New York on Tuesday is still an engineering sample, and apparently the only one currently in existence, but it is much further along in terms of functionality.

Tim and I split up yesterday around noon; I went off to attend the Panasonic press meeting while Tim spent more time with the HM700. We had agreed earlier to lobby JVC to let us record some clips that we can show you, but he and I both traveled back to our respective homes pretty late last night and I haven't talked to him yet, so I don't know how that's turned out.

So basically, the HM100 engineering sample that we saw isn't quite ready for showing video, but hopefully the HM700 is. We'll do our best to get some HM100 clips as soon as we can though. Meanwhile be sure to read Tim's first impressions of the HM100 at http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/jvcpr...0sneakpeek.php -- hope this helps,

Thanks Chris (and Tim) for finally putting some end to all our speculation. I have to say, as excited as I am about the HM700, the realization that I need to buy the SxS adaptor, regardless of what media I choose to use, in order to record XDCam EX on the premium priced camera IS a disappointment. I believe MSRP on the SxS adaptor is nearly $1800, making the "fully" equipped HM700 essentially a $10k USD purchase. I sincerely hope that when you folks are able to show us footage, our response is "ok, I CAN justify $10k for a 1/3" chip camera with less brand recognition than Sony".

Thanks, Chris, for clearing that up. So, unless we pony up for the SxS adapter, we're stuck with ProRes QuickTime files. That's a bit disappointing. As a Vegas user, I'm not a big fan of QuickTime, as it seems to bog my system down. I'd have been happier if JVC used Cineform for SDHC instead, or as an alternative to, ProRes. I'll be curious to try some clips and see how they respond outside of a Final Cut Pro environment.

Looking forward to Tim's reports!

Jon Fauer ASC and I spent some quality time with the HM700 yesterday and I did shoot footage in most of the modes (including undercrank 10fps and overcrank 60fps) on a beautiful spring-like day in the Meat Packing District of NYC, but the restaurant was opposed to us shooting any interior "low-light" material. I did play with +18dB gain while sitting at the table and I would say that there is an incredible improvement over the last generation of camcorders. I couldn't find LoLux in this engineering sample. Luckily we'll only have to wait a few weeks before the production models start shipping.
I played again with the HM100 as well, which had a software update since I last used it in Vegas, but the OIS still wasn't installed in that particular unit.

More to come...

Just for added clarity
 

This generation of HM cameras uses the XDCAM EX mpeg-2 long-GOP 19/25/35mbps codec whether it is wrapped in .mov or .mp4.

The HM100 will be able to record to SDHC in either .mov or .mp4 but you will never hear mention of "XDCAM EX" in relation to the camera presumably because the license from Sony doesn't cover recording to SDHC.

In the case of the HM700 the SxS recorder (which I was told will have SRP of $1000) acts as a dongle key to unlock XDCAM EX recording in .mp4 wrapper.

To be clear: a HM700 fresh out-of-the-box will record XDCAM EX codec wrapped in .mov in all modes and 19/25/35mbps bitrates to the SDHC card slots. These files will play on any Mac with FCP installed, or any Mac with the open source Perian XDCAM codecs installed, or a PC with the Windows XDCAM Quicktime codecs installed.

Once the SxS unit is attached you will be able to record XDCAM wrapped in .mp4 to either the SDHC slots or SxS slot (or both simultaneously.) Only .mp4 XDCAM can be recorded to the SxS slot, not .mov.

The JVC people assume that an expresscard SDHC adapter will also work with SxS slot (allowing simultaneous SDHC recording to two cards) but it has not been tested.

My brain hurts Tim.

Just so I can be clear: if I buy the HM700 and opt not to purchase the SxS adaptor, I can record 35mbit XDCam EX to the SDHC onboard?

If I want .mp4 files OR want SxS card recording to hand to clients with an SxS workflow, I need the adaptor, correct?

Bottom Line???

SDHC w/o SXS = .mov 19/25/35 flavors.
SDHC + SXS = .mov & .mp4 19/25/35 flavors.

Like we said .mp4 will work with Avid, it is just a slower import than rewrapped mp4 to mxf.

Still a disappointment.

Me too. Can we call this ConfusoCam?

Yes XDCAM EX wrapped in Quicktime .mov.

Yes. The adapter will "unlock" the ability to wrap XDCAM EX in mp4, which is how the EX1/EX3 cameras do it.
This presumably is a condition of JVC's licensing agreement with Sony.

BTW mp4 is just used as a wrapper for XDCAM EX, but it is still mpeg-2 long-GOP inside.

Ahhh.... the light is beginning to dawn. I think I get it now.

Thanks for the FURTHER clarification Tim. Already talking to Pete about these...

This wikipedia article about XDCAM formats and their implementation in different cameras (including the new JVC cameras) clairifies some of the confusion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XDCAM

It seems MXF is not relevant, as that applies to the XDCAM format recorded to disc.

XDCAM EX, the solid-state format, is wrapped in MP4.

The article mentions that NLEs with MXF editing ability are not automatically able to edit the new MP4-wrapped version. There is not backward compatibility from XDCAM HD to XDCAM EX(except for SD).

Thus, is seems it is on the NLEs to implement the new EX (MP4-wrapped) format.

It would seem then that the JVC camera offers what the Sony cameras do, _plus_ the Quicktime wrapper option.

Sony Clip Browser software: https://servicesplus.us.sony.biz/son...del-XDZP1.aspx

When you record XDCAM as mp4, then you use the free Sony Clip Browser software which in turn will re-wrap mp4 to mxf. It is a very fast process and will in turn allow you to go straight into Avid, Vegas etc. I think I read that Premiere and Edius will edit mp4 without rewrap.

BTW, the software utility is free.

Exactly. The bottom line is that if a NLE says it can ingest footage from an EX1 or EX3 then it will also work with the HM700 with SxS module or the HM100.

Also, there is a DV/HDV firewire port for backwards compatibility with older NLE systems or DTE recorders like the DR-HD100. All HD clips at all bitrates can be downconverted to either NTSC DV or PAL DV via the firewire port (PAL or NTSC is automatically selected based on the source frame/field rate.)

Also, 19.2mbps 720p or 25mbps 1080i/p files can be output via the firewire port as a HDV stream. I don't think the camera is able to downsample from 35Mbps to lower HDV rates, but I haven't confirmed that with JVC.

Information has been very slow on this camera, I'd be very interested to see some footage or even some stills! Does the camera perform better than the 200/250s? Resolution wise? Low light performance? Tim, didn't you spend some time with the camera? Did you post some kind of review of the camera? The Panasonic camp instantly flooded the boards at the other forum with tonnes of info, footage, stills, etc.. The JVC camp seems pretty laid back about the new camera details. Where's the goods!?

I posted the links below in the Sony XDCAM EX forum (after all this is an XDCAM EX camera even if it's not by Sony). I'm posting here since people might not have looked at the thread there.

JVC Professional Technical Description page

JVC Professional Attributes page

I've seen the specs and photos of the camera already, what I'm referring to is hands on details...I'd like to hear some honest impressions of the camera. Tim said a few days ago that he was going to spend some time with the new cam. So, I'm wondering if he was able to record anything? if he could post some footage? or a still frame from some footage or something...

On another note does anyone know if JVC uses the same technique with the CCDs as they did before when the cameras (HD100s) started suffering from the split screen effect? And does anyone know what the native sensors size is? are they 960X540? 1280X720? I know they mentioned that H/V offset is used... so just wondering!?

I'm working on a review right now and I do have answers to most of the common questions. The phone's been ringing off the hook since I got back from NYC 24 hours ago so it is taking a bit of time. It should be uploaded by late tomorrow afternoon.
I also have footage I shot in most of the formats.

We actually have two HM700 threads going here so you may have missed some of the information in the other one. I think I'll merge them together into an über-thread.

Look, Brian, honestly I'm sorry that this isn't happening fast enough for you, but please realize that Tim just got his hands on it only yesterday, and there was a trip back home from New York since then. He's working up a written review as well as uploading some video clips, which I'll publish just as soon as they're ready. Tim isn't getting paid for this (although he should be), so let's all please respect how generous he's being with his time here.

To their credit, JVC was very patient and most accommodating for us, but it's their only sample, so our actual hands-on time was understandably quite limited. There's no question that Panasonic sets the standard by developing a close relationship and providing tremendous advance support and copious resources for their preferred online venue; no other manufacturer matches them in that regard. They're doing it right.

Meanwhile we're doing all we can with what we're given. If the pace is too slow for you then I'm sorry but you're on the wrong site. Honestly we will put out as much as we can, as fast as we're able. And I'm offering a full refund if the service isn't satisfying. Hope this helps,

You know Tim, those can quickly become hard to follow. I think it's time for a new forum, with newer, more manageable discussions about specific HM700 topics...?

Hey guys,

Sorry about sounding so rushy, I'm just a little anxious to see some details...and I didn't hear too much...I do appreciate the effort that goes into these things. My apologies, I look forward to your review.

David, I'm not sure why the disappointment.

1) SDHC w/o SxS = .mov 19/25/35 flavors:

This option enables native (no transcode) real-time editing with FCP.

However, this option will likely not be limited to FCP. For the last several years I've been converting 30Mbps MPEG-2 FullHD from the JVC HD7 to MPEG-2 .mov files and they can be imported into other Apple applications and be edited in real-time. Some, if not most Windows, applications can import these files and edit them natively. Others may force a transcode to DNXHD.

I don't see any reason to be disappointed by these capabilities.

There are, however, open issues. Although it's EZ to talk about 25Mbps and 35Mbps files on SDHC cards that are "compatible" with XDCAM EX -- it may be an error to assume these cards duplicate the full functionality of "XDCAM EX on SxS" cards.

From working with camcorders that write to SDHC cards I've found:

a) Timecode resets to zero for each clip.

b) Files are limited to 4GB because these cards use FAT32. (That's why the next gen cards will use ExFAT.) Often camcorder firmware limits a single shot to a single file. Or, if their firmware does open new files as needed, the camcorder can't write them in a way that prevents data loss at the switch point. Here's a comment on the problem created by another camcorder, "Open the two files and you will notice 418 samples of audio missing just prior to the splice point and exactly two dropped frames just after the splice point."

The fact with the HM- series, can auto-cross card boundaries is a positive sign these camcorders will record information from long shots correctly.

Of course, it's also necessary that your NLE software can stitch long shot files together. Often the "next" file duplicates some of the frames in the "previous" file. Ideally, during import, your NLE SHOULD use timecode to create seamless video files. This is particularly important (and difficult) with long GOP formats.


2) SxS = .mp4 19/25/35 flavors:

This path gives you everything that XDCAM EX provides. Once you install the needed SxS driver, your computer can read SxS cards.

a) The Sony Browser can read files and will correctly stitch broken files together so they can be exported to ProRes 422 or DNXHD.

b) If your NLE supports XDCAM EX (.mp4) -- not XDCAM HD (.mxf) -- then you'll be able to skip using the sony Browser. However, when it comes to broken files, you'll need to confirm how your NLE handles these files. You also need to confirm if your NLE can natively edit these files. (If not, they will be auto-transcoded during import.)

And, if it can edit natively, can it do so in real-time?


3) SxS + SDHC = .mov 19/25/35 flavors on SDHC:

Frankly, I thought the SxS Media Recorder included a Sony encoder chip to force what was written to SxS cards to "be" XDCAM EX. Sony has always claimed its hardware encoder is far better than other MPEG-2 encoders. So it's possible previous posts are wrong and XDCAM EX can only be written to SxS. With the box attached, the SDHC cards are still written to from the JVC encoder.

>> Note the difference between an MPEG-2 file encoded by a JVC encoder that can be decoded by an XCAM EX decoder and a file encoded by a Sony XDCAM EX encoder. <<

It's also possible JVC has licensed the Sony encoder firmware that is unlocked by the SxS box. (The dongle concept.) Lastly, it's possible the box really does include a Sony encoder that feeds both set of slots.

However, I really would be surprised if Sony allowed anything fully equal to "XDCAM EX on SxS" to work with SDHC cards. This is why I expect there are SDHC limitations. (Were Sony to do so, it would leave itself open to why Sony doesn't use SDHC cards.)

Steve,

All great points. I'm disappointed because I can't afford the camera right now and the SXS extra cost for both the recorder and media is a bit disappointing. With cards and batteries it will take the price possibly over $10k.

I was under the early impresssion, based on the specs of the HM 100 that the HM 700 would be able to record ISO based media (.mp4) as JVC called it to regular SDHC cards. And I'm pretty much an Avid guy at heart.

So, I'm sure it will be a great camera, and I'm not saying it is overpriced, it is I'm just underbudgeted for now.

I will say that I'm now going to look at the Panasonic HPX 300 now while we are in the $10k range anyway. Avid already edits AVC Intra 100. After all, to me $10k is not just buying a camera, it is now a big investment and I need the best camera for the money.

Maybe in the fall, Cheeers.

SD lost in the shuffle?
 

I'm wondering if either the 100 or 700 will output downconverted SD. I still have clients that want DVCAM or DV, and I'd really like to feed it to a deck from the camcorder instead of trying to encode DV in an NLE. My little Canon HV20 will output to DV from HDV, which is very convenient at times.

Still hoping for 1/2" CCD's and AVC Intra from JVC.