Tim / Chris - Time code resets to zero???
 

Steve says:

"From working with camcorders that write to SDHC cards I've found:

a) Timecode resets to zero for each clip."



Say it aint so!!!!!!!! Anyone?

No reason it should be - its hardly an issue to implement if manufactures so desire. On my ex1 I can have options for how TC is recorded

I know its not HDSC before u all jump on my back.

Thanks Sean,
glad I wasn't alone about noise levels and thanks for explanation, here in Australia, everyone thought I was over reacting, but previously to the 251 I had the 101 and it was virtually noiseless (I must have gotton a freak).

Anyway, I would love to hear about the sensitivity of the hm700 and of course, hopefully the lack of noise and mpeg2 artifacting.
This is a major reason I haven't taken my 251 too seriously and was really waiting for a scarlet..but if it is a different ball game with hm700 and 35mbs I am willing to take another look.
I have been looking very closely at convergent design and their flash xdr and more specifically the upcoming nano, this will have both hdmi input and output, plus hdsdi which will maintain a 4.2.2 signal at 50meg and 100meg, that should get rid of any mpeg2 artifacting.
Also convergent design have released some test files that I sent to matrox and they trialed them in cs4 with their latest axio le drivers and they worked fine.
Convergent design will also be implementing time lapse in the future units.
Sooo... this maybe a better option existing gyhd251e with nano, because I am assuming
the hm700 will still be recording in 4.2.0 color space.

I suspect you are correct there's "no technical reason" why not -- as Sony has done it with their HVR-MRC1K CF recorder.

However, your EX1 uses SxS cards. So it's a marketing question of HOW to convince folks to spend the extra money for the SxS recorder.

If the identical QUALITY video is available without spending $1000 to $1500 -- what is the motivation to spend the extra money?

1) The ability to "have" XDCAM EX on SxS cards -- even though they cost far more?

2) Less "functionality" of the SDHC cards?

I'm not assuming anything is "missing" when using SDHC! I'm only cautioning that those who haven't used SDHC-based camcorders shouldn't ASSUME they work like solid-state tape. They can, but they don't.

Steve Mullen et al,

SxS uses FAT32. There are no dropped frames or missing audio as spanned and split clips are joined. Using SDHC in the EX cameras have the same features as SxS except: slower transfer time, inability to overcrank to the full extent SxS can on Sony. No issues at all with time code reseting. Keep in mind JVC is a SONY partner as per IBC and I suspect JVC has implemented similar features.

Sony XDCAM Clip Transfer joins files for Sony EX. JVC records MOV natively.
It remains to be seen if overcrank works better on JVC SDHC cards. It seems the cards are certainly fast enough but on Sony EX they've "bottlenecked" the cards write speed. There are different methods of writing to SDHC and Sony may have chosen a protocol that limits the speed. It remains to be seen how JVC handles this.

BTW Sony is accessing the SDHC through an Express Card USB adaptor rather than PCIe used in SxS cards so JVC may handle this differently but none of this results in time code reset, dropped frames or lost audio joining clips. If anything JVC may even improve on this if they're using a protocol that avoids the "bottleneck."

No one is saying "what" will be different. I suggest two capabilities. You have suggested a third.

Moreover, I opened two possibilities:

1) Less SDHC functionality -- which you have confirmed is what currently exists on the EX1/EX3.

AND/OR

2) The desire by a shooter to have recordings made on SxS simply because they feed into a well understood XDCAM EX workflow. It may be that even if quality and functionality are equal, some will spend the money to have "XDCAM EX SxS" recordings.

I'm only asking questions that we need answers to because they go directly to the issue of workflows.

As a freelancer in addition to owning and operating my own video production "house", this is an important ability. Rather than trying to explain to clients what I can record to SDHC cards, I can offer them an industry standard format that they understand. Keep in mind that there is an XDCam EX "VTR" (DDR?) that outputs VIDEO, not just a file. For my broadcast clients, this is a field leveler.

Thats all I needed to know. Mayonnaise jar I keep under my bed, prepare to hold part of my pay check for the next few months.

I agree -- the ability to deliver a format that has wide acceptance ON media that's well understood is certainly worth $1000. No hassles about "HDV" or "ProHD." Just say SxS.

And, no issues of Sony vs JVC either. :)

For other's of us -- there is no need to spend the money because all we want is high-quality footage at the lowest possible cost. In fact, for those of us that have been using other SDHC camcorders we are used to working with "clip-based" timecode.

Which brings us back to the "old" days:
When you showed up with a Sony BVW507 dockable head, no one looked to see if your dockable recorder was Sony or Ampex. You said Betacam, they got Betacam, they edited Betacam. Unlike VHS-C: "well, it's VHS tape, but in a smaller case. You'll need an adaptor to play it... oh, and you can only get 40 minutes on it. Did I mention you need an adaptor? Actually, no, I don't have one you can borrow. I actually don't need it for my workflow and I'm not sure where to get one or which brand to suggest".

While I certainly haven't made an exhaustive study, all the Ampex Beta equipment I've seen just had the Sony label pried off and Ampex written in in crayon. Well, maybe not but it was clearly a Sony product.

Really? The Ampex stuff I'm used to seeing extended a good 2 inches over top of the body, whereas the Sony branded stuff was nice and sleek, because THAT makes a difference in image quality... <laughs>

I'd be interested to know if you get a DEFINITIVE answer on the Ampex branded stuff...

Still not definitive but, from wikipedia...
"Ampex, Thomson SA and Philips each sold rebranded OEM versions of some of the Sony VTRs and Camcorders at various times in the 1980s and 1990s. Other than nameplates, these models were identical to the Sony models."

But yes, JVC cameras were largely compatible with Sony decks--though I think they needed an adapter--JVC decks slapped right on without. Same with Ikegami, I believe.

Has anyone had a play with this camera yet?

Yes. See http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1010873-post140.html earlier in this thread.

We'll put up a review shortly.

Ampex vs Sony Betacam
 

Andy is definitely right. It's just re-badged.

We have an Ampex CVR22 standing around, but the operating manual says "Sony BVW 22P"

And our BVW 75P has a manual saying "Ampex CVR75"


Looking forward to the review of the JVC 700 !

The HM700 looks to be causing quite a stir.

I have not seen anyone on this thread mention anything about importing to Premiere on a windows based NLE. Does anyone have any input on this?

The JVC press release and other forums I have read online refer to using Apple and FCP. One article even started "One must be married to FCP...to use the HM700"

Did JVC alienate us non apple people?

The two extensions available are .MP4 and .MOV. These of course are just containers for the XDCAM EX codec which is the only codec the HM700 records in. You can write XDCAM EX in the .MOV container to SDHC cards on a out-of-the-box HM700. If you want to write .MP4 you will need to add the KA-MR100 SxS module that unlocks the ability to record .MP4 to SDHC or SxS.

It isn't really native to FCP since you can download the free open-source Perian XDCAM EX codec for Quicktime and play these files on any mac. For Windows Vista or XP you can use XD Decode codec for Quicktime to work with XDCAM EX .MOV files. I still have to test this myself but the EX1/3 camp seems to give this software a thumbs up.
BTW the "MXF" indication on the engineering sample of the HM100 will likely change since the recorded container was still MP4.
XDCAM EX is used no matter what the bitrate. However the firewire port on the camera will output a HDV stream if you are using 19Mbps for 720p or 25Mbps for 1080i.

xml files are also included for each .MOV clip that contains all of the meta data including timecode. Presumably you can just import these xml files and relink them to the converted media.
XDCAM EX aside, Sony's EX series doesn't really have any ergonomic similarities to the HM700 or the lens selection, but they do use 1/2" chips instead of 1/3". There are pros and cons to everything. JVC representatives will chime in when Chris or I send an email request for clarification but they don't sit around all day watching our forum!

JVC licensed XDCAM EX from Sony which uses the MP4 container. XDCAM HD uses MXF. I'm sure there is an easy way to move from one container to another, I just don't know specifically. Avid MC3 does support XDCAM EX as does Premiere Pro CS4.

It certainly is confusing but the benefit of Sony's success with the EX series cameras is that it is in the NLE manufacturers' best interest to support XDCAM EX.

It should be around 2 hours on a 32GB SDHC card using 35Mbps. It is a Variable Bit Rate codec so that time may extend if the material is "simple."
It would be reasonable to think that because there are no technical limitations. It seems to me that this is simply a condition of JVC's XDCAM EX licensing agreement with Sony (who also just happen to manufacture and sell SxS media.)

Occam's Razor at work! That would seem to be the most logical explanation.
I think you've discovered a typo in the spec page. The 1440x1080 spec is there to provide backwards compatibility with HDV (via firewire.) I don't think it is officially part of the XDCAM EX spec so that is why it is Quicktime only.

And so will the HM100/700.

Not ProRes. XDCAM EX codec is used whether the SxS adapter is attached or not.

Exactly.

We're not laid back about our press coverage. In fact I can guarantee no other publication will have as in-depth coverage of the HM700 as we will or asks the questions we do. Unfortunately analyzing footage, making sense of our many photos of the internal menus, testing the formats across platforms, waiting for technical confirmation from JVC and writing an in-depth review spanning 5 pages (without the photos) takes a few days. Chris is in the process of formatting my article for the website, inserting movie files and pics and uploading. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.

I've been told that the CCDs are once again 1280x720 but the red channel is offset horizontally and the blue channel is offset vertically allowing more than 900 TV lines of resolution (full 1080P.) We'll have source footage available shortly.

The HM700 will downconvert to DV NTSC or PAL via firewire (something the JVC HDXXX cameras are not capable of doing.)
Keep hoping. 1/3" is well established with JVC and Mpeg2 isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
The HM700 (and HM100) have full control over the TC generator. You can preset the TC and record in FREE RUN, REC RUN or REGEN just like a tape based system. The other neat thing about the HM700 is that you can record in Continuous Clip mode which will append each new clip to the last giving you one big clip at the end of the day (split in 4GB chunks for Fat32.)

Not at all. That is simply confusion based on JVC's press materials that tend to "beat around the bush" with regards to the format.
It's been discussed quite a bit already in this thread but here are the basics again (just so everyone gets it.)

The codec used with the HM700 is XDCAM EX at bit rates up to 35Mbps.
The wrapper/container used on a new "out-of-the-box" HM700 is Quicktime .MOV and it can be written to SDHC cards.
The addition of the KA-MR100 SxS module will allow the ability to write XDCAM EX to SxS cards in the MP4 container, but will also unlock the ability to write XDCAM EX to SDHC cards in the MP4 container.

Premiere Pro CS4 natively supports XDCAM EX MP4 files. I downloaded the trial and imported them easily. It seems that XD Decode will allow you to import XDCAM EX .MOV files on a PC but I am in the process of testing this.

On the Mac you don't even really need FCP installed if you download and install the open-source XDCAM EX codec. This even works with Sony's XDCAM Transfer software.

is the HD SDI output 10bit 4:2:2 or still 8bit?

Good question Joe. I can't find any info on that. When I get a production model in my hands I'll have to shoot a smooth grad chart and see if there are any differences when capturing at 8bit or 10bit.

Additions to the "basic" clarifications:

The codec used with the HM700 is XDCAM EX at bit rates up to 35Mbps.
The wrapper/container used on a new "out-of-the-box" HM700 is Quicktime .MOV and it can be written to SDHC cards.

Within the .MOV wrapper will be long-GOP MPEG-2 with PCM (not MP2) audio. This can be imported and edited natively in real-time by FCP, and from my experience other Apple NLEs should be able to do the same.

Since some Windows NLE will also import .MOV and can edit MPEG-2 natively, these NLEs should also be able to edit the .MOV files.

Media Composer likewise should be able to "import" files, but will transcode to DNxHD.

I'm saying "should" because there are a whole flock of frame-sizes, frame-rates, etc. that need to be checked one-by-one.

1440x1080i will only be available via .MOV.

And, it appears that there will be no functional difference (i.e., timecode) between SDHC and SxS cards, which makes the basic 700 -- and 100 -- really good buys.

The addition of the KA-MR100 SxS module will allow the ability to write XDCAM EX to SxS cards in the .MP4 container, but will also unlock the ability to write XDCAM EX to SDHC cards in the .MP4 container.

You gain access to the entire XDCAM EX workflow from a JVC camcorder.

You can use all the tools (Sony Clip Browser, etc.) that are available for XDCAM EX.

You can use the current XDCAM EX workflows available for most NLEs. Just don't confuse the XDCAM HD (.mxf on optical disc) with XDCAM EX (.mp4 on cards).

If your NLE does not support XDCAM EX, you can use the Sony Clip Browser to convert files to another format.

===========

Still an open question:

The word "codec" has multiple meanings. Of course, we know both the .MOV and .MP4 MPEG-2 data are compatible with an XDCAM EX DEcoder. That's the definition of a format.

However, many different encoders -- of widely differing quality -- can be used to generate a compatible data stream.

Therefore, one also needs to know -- are different ENcoders (or different firmware) used for writing .MOV files when the SxS Media Recorder is not present and when the Media Recorder is present and the 700 writes XDCAM EX to SDHC and/or SxS.

I've attached a frame grab of the file structure on the SDHC card that contains both Quicktime wrapped and MP4 wrapped clips. As you can see the MP4 clips are in folders for each clip and follow the same structure at the EX1/EX3.
The Quicktime .MOV files are all contained in one folder (even though each of my samples are of different frame rates or dimensions) and xml files with the pertinent metadata are located in a folder beside it.

You may also notice that all the files have "DASH" as their prefix. The HM700 has the ability to make a 4 character prefix for the files. "CAM1" would have probably been ideal but I used "DASH" just so I knew those were my files.
Clips 1 through 4 were recorded as Quicktime. I then switched the camera to MP4 mode recorded clips 5 and 6, and then switched back to .MOV for clip 7.

I've also attached frame grabs from Media 100 Producer and Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 (Mac) showing that the XDCAM EX Quicktimes can be imported on a basic Mac system that doesn't have FCP installed, but does have the free open-source XDCAM codec installed. Media 100 doesn't seem to support the codec natively but instead prefers to transcode it into its own codec. Premiere Pro does seem to support it natively on the Mac as a .mov.

I installed XD Decoder on Windows XP and was able to open the Quicktimes in Quicktime player without issue. I assume this means that any Windows application that supports Quicktime will work with these files but I'm downloading the Premiere Pro CS4 demo for XP now and will have some more answers soon.

Thanks for the large post of answers a page or so ago.. and for the file info above... looks like we're getting closer to some grabs, reviews, footage..

Thanks for all your hard work.

Success! I was able to import the Quicktime files directly into Premiere Pro CS4 on Windows XP without the need to transcode. The properties of the imported .mov clips properly report XDCAM EX as the codec and all of the sizes and frame rates seem to work. (The gray bars are the watermarking done by the trial version of XD Decoder.)

"Within the .MOV wrapper will be long-GOP MPEG-2 with PCM (not MP2) audio. ... and from my experience other Apple NLEs should be able to do the same."

Confirmed -- .MOV files can be imported and edited as native MPEG-2/PCM in real-time by iMovie 09 and can be imported into OS X Media Composer. MC will transcode to DNxHD.

PS: Note that Media 100 still will not directly edit 720p30. If you import 720p30 -- it will convert it to 720p60. While this will work, the transcoded file will be twice as large.

iMovie08 wouldn't accept the XDCAM EX Quicktimes. I guess I need to go pickup iLife 09!

BTW iDVD08 accepts the XDCAM EX Quicktimes just fine.

Interesting, though I think that should really have the caveat "...more than 900 TV lines of luminance resolution ...". With a 4:2:0 recording system, it shouldn't make much practical difference, except maybe for more colour aliasing than a non-pixel shift system.

Any idea for the smaller GY-HM100? 960X540?

Tim, 08 restricted import formats more than does 09. I'm shooting 720p30 H.264/AVC (not AVCHD) with a DSLR-type camera whose files QT played fine, but 08 wouldn't import. With 09 they import and I can edit them natively -- no convert to AIC.

No luck with the MPEG-2/PCM file with: Vegas 8 Pro, Studio 11, Avid Xpress Pro, and Canopus 4. The PCM audio imported fine, however. Don't yet know if it's the lack of an MPEG-2 codec or the 35Mbps data-rate. Expect a download of "XDCAM EX" codecs will be the solution.

Tim, just to understand you right:

In your example (screenshots of the media) there were those typical SxS folders (Dash0005) - did I understand you right that these folders (ex1 like) are only generated when KA-mr100 installed?

Or wayaround: out of the box the hm700 can only write quicktime movs, correct?

Thanks

Uli

So, are you saying that the timecode will not restart for each clip? I remember reading someones post earlier and they said that cameras that record to SDHC cards restart timecode for each clip? maybe i read that wrong. Can you clarify? Thanks

Yes you are correct.

As far as I can tell it won't reset to 00:00:00:00 in REC mode as long as you stay in that particular shooting mode (720 or 1080.) In my test clips the timecode I preset to 01:00:00:00 continued generating from clip to clip until I switched from 720p to 1080p, and then it reset to 00:00:00:00. Keep in mind this is a pre-release one-of-a-kind engineering sample so everything is subject to change by the time the camera ships.

For Sale...
 

Well, this thread has been a lot of fun, having just gotten back around to read it all.

I for one, need little more info to want one of each, the 700 + 100. The 700 will even prevent me from hopping ship to a 5D. Seriously. I know the application is different, but having just shot for a month last September with 2 breadloaf EX1's, I was very ready to find some better image quality...looks like I just did. And, I can keep with the form that I've come to love.

So I've got an HD250 in excellent condition w/ the 17x Fujinon lens upgrade....I think I need to talk to Scott Cantrell or Terri Nixon.

Maybe you really want a 250? =)

Thank you Tim, Chris
 

And thanks for the major effort you put into simply discussing this latest round of products, Tim and Chris...

I hope the low light capability on these are good. I'm in the process of specking out new HD cameras' for my church and these could be an affordable alternative to the EX3s'. They want to move to an Apple/FCP based editing system anyway. For my Church, 8bit 4:2:2 is perfectly great, I need 10bit for my upcoming feature this spring.

Tim,

You stated that you were able to import .mov files into Premiere CS4 on Windows XP without issue. My question is, do you have to use XD Decoder to do this, or, will Premiere import these regardless without having to render? Is XD Decoder only necessary if you want to playback files using Quicktime player?

I have seen the HM700!
 

.... it was on display at the Broadcast Video Expo in Earl's Court, London today. Apparently the only one in existence, it was flown over from America on Friday. I didn't get the chance to do any serious testing with it but it was 'live' on the stand, plugged into a large monitor and available for anyone to pick up, sling onto a shoulder and play with.

The sensors, they tell me, are indeed 1280x720, scaled up to 'full' HD. It was heavier than I expected, oddly but entirely comfortable on the shoulder, seems to be very similar to their existing tape-based models so far as I could tell.

There's been a bit of flip-flopping within JVC about what lens it will ship with over here and at what price. The sales people on the stand say the latest is that it'll come as standard with a 16x Fujinon lens that's used on their current 200-series units - and will have a lower-than-I-expected street price of around £5,000 + VAT (sales tax).

For a few hundred pounds more (£6,300 list price, ie less than that on the street), a wider Canon 14x lens will be available. Interestingly, the SxS option module was quoted as only 500 euros; that's about £450 at current exchange rates. That may be only the case if bought as a bundle with the camera though, I wasn't quite sure on that point.

The LCD screen is (relatively) vast and so far as I could tell in the less than ideal conditions of a trade show, quite clear and crisp. Menus were easy to navigate with the big silver button on the side of the camera and did't involve many button presses. Apparently the final version will have a customisable "favourites" menu of sub-options that can be clicked through to very quickly though it wasn't available on this engineering preview model.

The JVC rep I was chatting to has promised to sort out a loan unit for me as soon as the production models hit the shelves in March (it was going to be at NAB but the've brought the date forward)

Regards
Dave

Sorry about the newbie (but basic) question:

If I record at 1080p24 to the SDHC cards, how long can I record to say a 16gb card? A few minutes? An hour?

I've never used the SDHC, but I love my JVC HD100, but the HM700 is very tempting. I'm sooooo ready to never use tape again.

According to my calculations, at 35mbps you should get 1h5m out of a 16GB card. 1h30m at 25mbps.