Mini DV tape for HD shooting, do I need "hd" tape?

Allan Black · August 29th, 2007, 07:20 PM

Many folk use new good grade SD DV tape without problems; always stay well away from brands like 'Silver DV Tape' in 5 packs or similar.

During manufacture, higher priced magnetic tape is quality checked much more often than the lower grades. The whole process is slower because the cutting knives are changed more frequently keeping the finer tape edges.

If the knives start to get blunt, they can easily get out of skew and this can result in a trapezoid cut.

If you lay that whole tape on one edge, straight out on a dead flat surface, it'll rise up slightly, then down, along its length.

It has no chance of tracking dead straight through a cams tape path. They test a few, if they don't actually jam, they go out to the cheaper stores.

Keep an eye on the intro of hard disk cams, as consumer DV tape cams sales fall below a certain point, IMO the major tape manufacturers will offload their tape manufacturing plants to smaller (read cheaper) companies.

Their output quality will fall as they strive to save costs. IMO it'll go quickly like a domino effect. Jump in and stock up with your favourite tape first.

Kelii Grace · August 29th, 2007, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

If you don't have any dropouts, the quality is the same. It's 1s and 0s. You could test by recording the same material to two different tapes, and then using a difference composite mode to check the difference.

Im sorry but how would I go about using a difference composite mode? I use adobe premiere CS3 as my NLE.

Mahalo

Kevin Shaw · August 29th, 2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Carter

Kevin: were you one who said in past thread the the expensive tapes were like Monster Cables? that a good analogy (if it's true).

No, but that's a useful comparison. For almost any kind of standard consumer connection cable you can pay anywhere from a few dollars to well over $100, and the $100 cables aren't ten times better than the $10 ones. If you really want top quality buy the HDV tapes, if you want to save a few bucks try the same tapes you've been using for DV and see how that works for you - then you can share tapes with your DV cameras (if you still have any).

Peter Wiley · August 29th, 2007, 08:19 PM

From Sony's press release of 5/17/05

"Professional Media Optimized for HDV Applications

Sony’s highest-quality 6mm videotape, DigitalMaster, is the recommended professional media for HDV applications. These 63-minute cassettes (model PHDVM63DM) use Sony’s AME (Advanced Metal Evaporated) II Technology and its unique dual-active magnetic layers.

By improving on an already successful product, the new AME II manufacturing process employs Hyper Evaticle IV magnetic grains, improved lubricants, and a refined Diamond-Like Carbon (DLC) layer. DigitalMaster tape exhibits greater packing density of magnetic grains, higher retentivity, higher output and lower noise. The result is a more robust tape with 60 percent fewer dropouts and 90 percent fewer errors."

60% fewer dropouts compared with? Note they don't say specifically. Assume they mean compared their less expensive tapes. What's the dropout rate for those less-expensive tapes for reasons due to the tape alone? Who knows, but if it's 1 significant dropout event in 100 tapes . . .

If Sony would just tell what the dropout rate was on their SD tapes(presumably they know what it is) one would have some chance of evaluating their claim.

Note too that the dropout rate is distinguished from "errors", what ever those may be.

On a side note, Sony has recently been charged with price- fixing on professional video tape by the European Union.

Glenn Chan · August 29th, 2007, 08:29 PM

The DV and HDV formats implement error correction. If there are too many errors for the error correction algorithm to fix, then you get a dropout.

That might be the difference between error rate and dropout rate.

Quote:

Assume they mean compared their less expensive tapes.

They could be referring to something else... heck, they could be referring to DVCPRO tape (metal particle, not metal evaporated).

2- Things like dust getting into the tape will cause dropouts. You can test for this by blowing dust into the tape (you have to open it up).

Other things like hard shock will cause dropouts... in some sports situations that can be a problem I think.

And of course there are a number of other things that can go wrong (e.g. cell phones + audio equipment). Tapes getting lost in transport. User error from not labeling the tape. VTR eating your tape. Consistently bad weather or background noise. Etc.

Per Johan Naesje · August 30th, 2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

And of course there are a number of other things that can go wrong (e.g. cell phones + audio equipment).

Glenn,
are you telling that this can cause dropout...??

Willard Hill · August 30th, 2007, 07:29 PM

I do know that 2-way law enforcement radios cause a disturbance in video signals. I used to be a Deputy Conservation Officer and at that time used an XL-1s. If I was shooting near the vehicle and a transmission came across the radio it would not actually cause a drop out, but it would cause the picture to shift and distort. Also if one was near the vehicle and powered the XL-1s up it would cause the radio to emit a low crackling popping nose. A cell phone can cause distortion, etc. on a computer monitor under the right conditions so they may effect video also.

August 30th, 2007, 07:29 PM	#37
Willard Hill Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 191	I do know that 2-way law enforcement radios cause a disturbance in video signals. I used to be a Deputy Conservation Officer and at that time used an XL-1s. If I was shooting near the vehicle and a transmission came across the radio it would not actually cause a drop out, but it would cause the picture to shift and distort. Also if one was near the vehicle and powered the XL-1s up it would cause the radio to emit a low crackling popping nose. A cell phone can cause distortion, etc. on a computer monitor under the right conditions so they may effect video also. __________________ Willard http://pawildlifephotographer.blogspot.com/

August 29th, 2007, 07:20 PM	#31
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,887	Many folk use new good grade SD DV tape without problems; always stay well away from brands like 'Silver DV Tape' in 5 packs or similar. During manufacture, higher priced magnetic tape is quality checked much more often than the lower grades. The whole process is slower because the cutting knives are changed more frequently keeping the finer tape edges. If the knives start to get blunt, they can easily get out of skew and this can result in a trapezoid cut. If you lay that whole tape on one edge, straight out on a dead flat surface, it'll rise up slightly, then down, along its length. It has no chance of tracking dead straight through a cams tape path. They test a few, if they don't actually jam, they go out to the cheaper stores. Keep an eye on the intro of hard disk cams, as consumer DV tape cams sales fall below a certain point, IMO the major tape manufacturers will offload their tape manufacturing plants to smaller (read cheaper) companies. Their output quality will fall as they strive to save costs. IMO it'll go quickly like a domino effect. Jump in and stock up with your favourite tape first.

August 29th, 2007, 08:19 PM	#34
Peter Wiley Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lewisburg PA Posts: 752	From Sony's press release of 5/17/05 "Professional Media Optimized for HDV Applications Sony’s highest-quality 6mm videotape, DigitalMaster, is the recommended professional media for HDV applications. These 63-minute cassettes (model PHDVM63DM) use Sony’s AME (Advanced Metal Evaporated) II Technology and its unique dual-active magnetic layers. By improving on an already successful product, the new AME II manufacturing process employs Hyper Evaticle IV magnetic grains, improved lubricants, and a refined Diamond-Like Carbon (DLC) layer. DigitalMaster tape exhibits greater packing density of magnetic grains, higher retentivity, higher output and lower noise. The result is a more robust tape with 60 percent fewer dropouts and 90 percent fewer errors." 60% fewer dropouts compared with? Note they don't say specifically. Assume they mean compared their less expensive tapes. What's the dropout rate for those less-expensive tapes for reasons due to the tape alone? Who knows, but if it's 1 significant dropout event in 100 tapes . . . If Sony would just tell what the dropout rate was on their SD tapes(presumably they know what it is) one would have some chance of evaluating their claim. Note too that the dropout rate is distinguished from "errors", what ever those may be. On a side note, Sony has recently been charged with price- fixing on professional video tape by the European Union.